Mystery chart - June 2018 (person revealed in thread post)

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I am not sure if I am allowed to start up these mystery charts since I am a newbie here. I am still learning birth charts. The past mystery charts I been able to find has been interesting and helpful to me.

This is a Male and I would consider quite well known internationally.
I checked the forum if anyone has done this person before, no one has.
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-If you used a different house system and/or sidereal let us know so we can follow your reasoning.
1. What was the highest form of formal education did he complete?
2. What type of career is he in?
3. Some of his childhood is documented to.
4. whatever else you want to share I'll try to confirm with what information is out there. There is a fair bit.


I'll post who this is and links to information about their life on July 7th 2018 @11:59pm EST (U.S.A)
If feel I should change revealing date let me know

Last edited by EleanorLouise on Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Let the cookie crumble how it will crumble.

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With Venus ruling the 10th in the 2nd are you tying in the horary discussion on singers? His Venus is dignified but also feral traditionally - is his style a bit wild or abnormal?

I find his chart kind of boring. He seems like a typical famous person, just with more Pluto (and a bad Saturn) influences than some. I have a photographic memory of charts and his chart reminded me a little of Justin Timerlake's. I am guessing he has a good income and dates pretty women and such. Justin Timberlake makes me think of the typical guy with Venus in Capricorn square Pluto having influence over his love life - which ruled Britney Spears' chart and described her pretty well as a love interest. A lot of times this can show someone cheats and the other gets very badly heartbroken over it, or possibly both involved get hurt. Often they are very jealous and possessive in general, even if Sagittarius is strong (especially with Scorpio rising). Phil Hartman and his wife both had difficult Venus-Pluto and that ended in a murder-suicide, for example.

I find his chart dull, but that is just me. Education? Probably not much with detrimented Saturn in the 9th. People often think that those with strong Sagittarius will be more educated due to the influence of Jupiter, but exaggerated Sagittarius in the personality can show someone who thinks they are above formal education and even looks down on it, especially with Saturn square Uranus. Is he also an atheist? Saturn in detriment in the 9th is a classical indication of someone who does not believe in God (or can be a Devil worshiper). In general, I think of someone with Saturn in hard aspect with Uranus as a possible rule breaker.

His Mercury is detrimented and arguably besieged too and the Moon is translating the light of Mercury to a difficult Saturn, suggesting some mental health issues. I have a sister with a besieged Mercury and difficult Saturn and she was a drug addict for many years. Normally Mercury trine Saturn is an indication of deep thought and intelligence but the dignity of Mercury and Saturn is not great. It could be that he is intelligent but also suffers from lack of focus and mental health issues, especially since Saturn is out of sect. This is a night chart (the Sun has not yet risen) and Saturn is the only traditional body above the earth also, which is rather dark, not unlike Ted Bundy's chart, just in a less difficult house. His chart is almost like a mashup of Justin Timberlake and Ted Bundy. A pretty yet unstable celebrity? Like Deb, I often have archetypes I use for planetary signification and that is what came to mind. A lot of his planets are under the earth and are occidental too, emphasizing a more introverted and feminine influence on the personality.

Saturn ruling the 3rd, especially badly placed, can show estrangement from family. I don't see a ton of emphasis on family either way though to say.

Marriage seems possible but unstable. Algol on the 7th cusp and the 7th ruler with Uranus and square Pluto seems like his relationships would be a troublesome area. Again, Venus square Pluto suggests obsessive and possibly abusive relationships. If he does marry, it would likely end in divorce and wouldn't last long.

If Mars rules his 5th, I see no strong indications of children. His chart doesn't have fruitful indications in general for children. However, I don't love Placidus and Jupiter might lord over the 5th, in which case it is more probable (Jupiter is a fruitful planet in a fruitful sign, although retrograde). If he does have children, I would rethink the chart type. Personally, I am a fan of Regiomontanus.

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The Mean Node of the Moon is 2 degrees Scorpio or less, so it does make a 22.5 degree aspect with Venus, which also aspects Pluto. (I was easily able to look this up in the ephemeris).

The antiscion of the Moons Mean Node is 28 degrees Aquarius, which squares the Ascendant; Scorpio is a sign of short ascension in the northern hemisphere, so a small difference in birth time would make a big difference in degree of the Ascendant. So the Moons Node's antiscion could be exactly square the Ascendant, which is a hallmark of a famous person.

This person has great charm.

The strong first house shows that they are about personality.

Likewise his Moon Mercury conjunction in the first house makes a 22.5 degree aspect to his Midheaven. He knows how to come across well to the public.

Chiron's antiscion is 1 degree Virgo 45 minutes, square the Sun Mars conjunction. This conjunction makes a weak aspect to Neptune, not sure enough to give musical talent. Mars Neptune is very common in musicians' charts, but also I have seen a lot of Mars Sun conjunctions in musicians' charts, such as Patti Smith, David Bowie, and Nick Cave.

This chart has Uranus making also a 22.5 degree aspect to the Sun Mars conjunction. The double aspect of Uranus and Chiron to this Sun Mars conjunction makes it very significant, it has a wounded, damaged quality, like some rock stars do have, and the Sun Mars conjunction being in the first house suggests possibly a frontman. He has enough chart angles aspects to crystallise his qualities into a public product but this Sun Mars conjunction aspecting Chiron and Uranus doesn't itself aspect the angles, so these wounds probably do affect him. Mars can show alcohol problems, as well as musical talent, and David Bowie admitted to these in a famous interview with Jeremy Paxman. A lot of great musicians drink alcohol.

I just quickly read through what Tanith wrote and found it interesting, will come back later and read it carefully. Yes there are some potentially narcissistic aspects like the Moon Mercury conjunction and Venus to the Moons Nodes, but they also aspect the chart angles, which aspect the Moons Nodes, so any narcissism is transmuted into fame. I don't pay much attention to celebrities, they are worshipped but often you find they have low IQ's. I think this guy could be at least average intelligence, but for all his fame my reaction was that he is not my intellectual superior. Fame and success seem to be a chart angle thing. I don't think I would like him, and he certainly wouldn't waste a second on me. He is about show, with not as much as most people have going on inside, though his Mars talents are real.

His Mars aspects are not narcissistic, and they themselves don't aspect the chart angles, this is pure woundedness and genuine talent. And you asked about his childhood; Chiron is in the fifth house, squaring the antiscia of Mars and the Sun, so probably wounded, and issues with his father (Sun).

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Mars Neptune is very common in musicians' charts,
The orb is wide but relevant. The main thing is that it is in the 1st, I think. Mars-Neptune is also common in the charts of male sex symbols, as well as Neptune in the 1st (or even 10th, since that is the public persona) or aspecting the 1st house ruler. Neptune has an odd way of making someone seem more mysterious and like an ideal. You could call it charm also, like you were saying. That is one thing I saw in common with Justin Timberlake, who has Mars sextile Neptune. Some of the most famous sex symbol men have Mars aspecting Neptune. One common complaint I hear from men about the actor Ryan Gosling is that he has such an ordinary appearance, yet women go crazy for him. Well, look at that Mars conjunct Neptune on the MC (also in charming Sagittarius), not to mention he has a good understanding of women due to his Venus in Libra in the 7th sextile Mars. Easy Venus-Mars tends to create a better understanding of the opposite sex, which this person does not have and with his Venus unaspected (traditionally) and in hard aspect with Pluto, he may not have very healthy relationships with women, assuming he is straight.

For female sex symbols, you may see Venus with Neptune, such as Marilyn Monroe's 1st house Neptune trine Venus.

I have Venus conjunct Mars in the 10th trine Neptune and am thankfully not famous but have been on the receiving end of men who saw me as something other than what I am. It must be a difficult thing to live with on a daily basis for these people. :-?

Regarding narcissism, I never mentioned that, although a heavy 1st house like that with the Sun also there can show the person is very self focused. My main thing is that I think he seems shallow with Venus in Capricorn in the 2nd and such heavy Sagittarius influences. Perhaps this is a bias I have because I have known personally a good amount of people with Venus in Capricorn and money in particular is often important to them, if not the most important thing to them, even more so in the 2nd. Influencing the 7th, he would also probably be shallow regarding relationships. When someone has mental health issues like he very clearly likely has, there is often lack of self esteem so I wouldn't come to that conclusion, although narcissism is a type of mental health disorder.

Does he love animals? I have Moon conjunct Neptune in Sag (in the 6th) and would rather spend my time with animals than people. I haven't eaten meat in over 20 years also. A friend has this in the 12th and also prefers animals to people, although she eats meat. Like his chart, my Moon aspects Saturn though, which might show a more restrictive diet than my friend's.

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Tanit3333 wrote:With Venus ruling the 10th in the 2nd are you tying in the horary discussion on singers? His Venus is dignified but also feral traditionally - is his style a bit wild or abnormal?
I honestly didn't notice that. Wish I was that clever when I posted this chart. I just happened across him and remember I had his birth data. I practiced on his chart before so be a good opportunity to observe delegation of a chart.

Plus some of his life experience I was interested in seeing how people piece together this chart to find the answer.

The feral venus which the other person in the thread I said I believe had. This is just a funny coincident.
Let the cookie crumble how it will crumble.

6
thanks eleanor for doing this...

well, i don't have a photographic memory like tanit, or whatever tanit said their - but i have seen this chart in the past 6 months, so maybe i need to disqualify myself from making any guess on who it is... i can't actually remember at this point, but probably some singer, or actor type.. i can't remember who this is though, but i have seen the chart before and was surprised to see they had the chart on adb or where ever it was i saw it with an accurate birth time..

it is funny the comments from tanit and fleur... well, they are good comments, but they are fun to read - maybe that is what i mean! the guy gets trashed basically!

too much of an emphasis in the fire element suggests he didn't really care for school or any methodical, go slow approach... i suspect this plays into his educational level... i have a similar chart in terms of an emphasis of fire.. i have saturn in sag - which not the same as saturn in the 9th - but some similarities... of course in this chart, saturn in leo is in the 9th solar house too - leo is 9th sign from sag.. leo is the 10th sign from scorpio and thus makes the saturn in leo prominent in being the most elevated planet in the chart... i have found saturn in leos like to pursue some type of creative activity and so it makes sense that this would define his occupation in some way..

uranus is the planet that rises before the sun in the chart and puts an emphasis on the uranian energy in this chart for me.. he is not afraid to be different, in fact he would come by it naturally to a good degree..

jupiter is kind of the handle to what looks a bit like a bucket chart - marc edmund jones types. all the planets contained in the saturn to venus 143 bi quintile aspect with jupiter functioning as handle - his connections with others are of great significance.. he would tend to exploit them for all they are worth.. of course biquintiles suggest talent - saturn-venus - arts related..

there is a shallow vibe to the chart ( moon conjunct mercury?) and i am the same as the other posters in not being drawn to wanting to know this person! maybe that is unfair.. i have also noticed the soft aspects - sextiles or trines with saturn and neptune give musical talent... so, my guess is he is a singer who likes to hog the stage... mars, sun and jupiter are all close to the ascendant axis.. these are the 3 fire planets - 2 in fire, but regardless - a lot of fire on stage in some context..

7
There is a shallow vibe to the chart ( moon conjunct mercury)
Translation of light here is a little complex and something I looked at for a while before I first posted. With Mercury I usually look at what light it is carrying and what it is applying to next. The last planet to aspect it was the Moon, which translated the light of Mars to Mercury again, but the last aspect Mercury itself made was to Mars also. So the Moon is technically carrying Mercury's light to Saturn and Mercury was on the receiving end of the aspect of the Moon holding the light of Mars, but I would think Mercury itself still holds an influence of Mars, and it next applies to Saturn. You could say the Moon is severing the light of Mars to Mercury but to me it seems to still hold influence in that conjunction, especially within orb and the fact that Moon gave light of Mars to Mercury. The Moon was of the nature of Mars when it aspected Mercury and I think that is important. I suppose that is not really besiegment but it still seems difficult - Mercury being between two malefics and this showing mental disturbance, especially since the Moon is further carrying the light of Mercury to a detrimented Saturn, which is quite ugly when detrimented and at night (I wonder what the speed is too). I would be surprised if he did not suffer from depression, for example. However, I tend to look at natal charts like a horary a bit too much, especially regarding what energy the Moon is holding or gave to other planets. The Moon is very adaptable though, like Mercury, so if it holds the light of a malefic and gives that to a planet, the light of the malefic is generally more forceful than the nature of the Moon on its own.

While I can see why someone might think Mercury with an inferior can show a shallowness, and this likely works a lot, Mercury with the Moon can also show superior intelligence because information comes quickly and intuitively, and the mind and the emotions can be more balanced. This works more clearly when they are the only two planets involved in the aspect. Here that does not work out well.
it is funny the comments from tanit and fleur... well, they are good comments, but they are fun to read - maybe that is what i mean! the guy gets trashed basically
I tend to have a sarcastic voice and may be focusing too much on the negative here, because I have a tendency to look at a chart and decide whether or not I like that person based on what it is saying. I am a bit too decisive and judgemental. I also do this in the horary forum a lot. :lala

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tanit,

thanks for your additional comments.. you mentioned a few things in your first post that i found intriguing... beseiged... i couldn't see that myself, so i was confused by that...

on the topic of diurnal verses nocturnal... it is a bit of an open question as i see it.. i think this is essentially a diurnal chart, although if we just go by the degrees, the sun appears below the horizon.. i suspect the light would be coming thru in the sky regardless as the sun is very close to the ascendant... however, i have never actually worked this out, like an astrologer of the past probably has... still - i think it is diurnal and that as a consequence, saturn is at part of the correct sect.. that's my take anyway... at this point, i am unconvinced of just how critical this too..

regarding the transmission of light concept - i am not up to speed on that.. i had read about it but generally not clear on just how it works... for me, uranus rising just ahead of the sun is more significant to the persons energy, although i wouldn't want to discount something i don't fully understand!

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This is definitely not a day chart. If the sun is below the horizon it is a night chart. As someone who has worked night shift and done horaries in the early hours, the sun has not risen yet and the only body in the sky would be Saturn.

The sun has to be above the ascendant line for it to be a day chart. The rules are pretty clear on that. This isn't my first rodeo.

Also, Deb's resources agree:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/diurnal.html

I have never seen besiegment be irrelevant, personally, in any type of astrology chart. Here it isn't actual besiegment but more so Mercury is between the energy of Mars and Saturn due further to the Moon's involvement but I would hypothesize it could work in the same manner.

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tanit,

we are going to have to disagree on diurnal/nocturnal then.. i don't think it is so black and white.. thus - we see it differently! but for curiousity sake - i think you are suggesting as the chart is nocturnal - saturn would operate in a more malignant way? is that basically it? perhaps you can elaborate on how the difference would impact your interpretation of the chart.. as it stands, saturn is relatively negative just going with the saturn in leo theme..

as for beseigement being irrelevant - i never said that, but okay!

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Do you have examples of where someone would have a day chart where Sun is below the earth? This isn't a matter of technique, it is a rule regarding diurnal versus nocturnal usage. Scorpio is also a sign of long ascension. If we had the birth place and time, you could check the sunrise to see when it physically would be up in the air but for astrological purposes, this is a night chart. I am not making up rules.

Saturn in Leo is in detriment. At night, Saturn is out of sect, rendering it more negative (traditional sources would call it more cold, meaning it could be more cruel, more melancholy, etc.), although Saturn in Leo doesn't need further debility to be difficult. There are many examples of Saturn in detriment leading to negative influences on a chart, whether inwardly or outwardly, such as my mentioning Ted Bundy, but also Adolph Hitler comes to mind (in a day chart but elevated). These are exaggerated cases. It can be alleviated, but Jupiter is the primary planet to be able to do that, according to traditional sources, and here it is not capable of that due to retrograde movement and aspecting it via square. I would think the influence of Jupiter still might help keep the more darker influences that Saturn is capable of at bay, though. Saturn here has influence especially over Mercury and the Moon.

If Saturn is the only planet above the earth in a traditional approach, then I honestly do think it has emphasized meaning here, and since Saturn is both in detriment and out of sect, the influence is not positive and it would be difficult to make this person have a happy life, regardless of material possessions and how much attention they get. Planets above the earth often have more external force but it is influencing internal planets, so these circumstances could be things he experiences that cause him to have internal turmoil.

12
tanit,

let me quote myself -
james_m wrote:i think this is essentially a diurnal chart, although if we just go by the degrees, the sun appears below the horizon.. i suspect the light would be coming thru in the sky regardless as the sun is very close to the ascendant... however, i have never actually worked this out, like an astrologer of the past probably has...
to me it is an open question.. i don't know if it is as straight forward as some suggest - diurnal /nocturnal.. that's all...

the theory is saturn in a nocturnal chart is more malefic.. that is the theory.. perhaps it is true.. saturn is already a malefic here given it's position in leo.. a more depressing statement one might make if we say the chart is nocturnal with saturn in leo high in the sky is that the person is more prone to depression and it might lead to some unfortunate inclinations, none of the apparent wealth, or fame being capable of offsetting it either! how is that for dark? internal turmoil would seem built into this chart as i see it... i think i mentioned already - it is a challenging chart on a few levels, with the moon/mercury conjunction being only a part of it.. venus in cap in determent, the saturn-jupiter square - which you have pointed out - and a few other factors set a tone that is not all that easy to work with as i see it..

perhaps what it has going for it is the new moon.. new moon folks are quite spontaneous with their energy for good or bad.. they tend to have a certain type of popularity too as i see it, although i have never read anyone say that... the 5 planets in sag - a stellium as it is called in modern astrology - is a dominating part of the chart.. one could say with that many planets in the first house and sign sag, they are involved in a process of self discovery in a sag type way - traveling, being philosophical, religious, political and any way to broaden one's horizons thru exploring these different areas - will bring a degree of happiness and self fulfillment... my problem is with the jupiter in taurus as ruler of these planets... trad astro basically says - jupiter can't see the sag planets... i would agree with that here and wonder how it causes a disconnect where the person tries to connect on a deeper level, but are unable to do that? i get that from other factors in the chart too - saturn in leo, mercury/moon conj. and everything rolled into one...

so, really - whether saturn is in a nocturnal or diurnal chart at this point - i am not convinced it matters any or very much...

i really tried to use the idea of sect for a better understanding of charts, but my success with it has been lukewarm at best.. and, i do start with my own chart and work out from their... i remain unconvinced of its value, so for me - something is going to have to happen for me to be convinced on it at this point! thanks for your comments!