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Murder of spouse/murdered by spouse

 
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 755

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:24 am    Post subject: Murder of spouse/murdered by spouse Reply with quote

Hello,

For some reason I was considering this topic today as I was remembering Natalie Wood's chart (another thread reminded me of her Venus in Virgo close to Neptune) and was wondering if anyone has traditional resources on significators that show death due to murder by spouse or murdering one's spouse? I vaguely remember running across this years ago with, perhaps, Tetrabiblos, etc.

She was before my time but I have always wondered about the mystery of her death. Unrelated to traditional, but her natal 8th ruler is semi aspecting Neptune, so perhaps it will always be unsolved (although Neptune also relates to water and Virgo is sometimes associated with drownings). In predictive astrology, Venus is sometimes associated with accidents, especially involving alcohol or substances when ill dignified. Still, there are other things in her chart that seem alarming.

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Wood,_Natalie

The case was reopened earlier this year and changed from an accidental death to undetermined and Wagner is a person of interest. Even without astrology, I think the situation leaves a rational person to suspect her husband had something to do with it, especially considering her fear of the ocean and inability to swim and his history of jealousy. Wagner may have had some influence that helped him avoid controversy, such as a friendship with the president. There isn't a lot of solid evidence, beyond witnesses that only heard things in the middle of the night, and some may have received threats if speaking out against Wagner.

Do you think her chart shows the nature of her death, and if so how do you think it occured?

I have seen astrology articles on her death and how there wasn't much activity in her chart, but that is not true to me. She was in an 8th house Venus profection (which also rules her 1st) during the death and transit Venus was in a grand cross with transit Saturn, which was in her natal 1st, and the transit nodes, while all of this was aspecting her natal anglar Saturn in the 7th and Mars in the 10th, both in bad shape and squaring one another and emphasizing the 7th house. Why anyone would call a grand cross type of transit involving profection rulers and an 8th house profection uneventful is beyond me. While all of this could just point to death or an accident in general, the fact that she has angular malefics focused on the 7th house seems like it shows potential for violence from a partner - Aries ruled 7th with Mars combust in a day chart and with Pluto.

When you look at Wagner's chart, one thing concerning is Moon in the 8th opposite Saturn, and this connects to her angular Mars, ruler of her 7th. I was trying to find traditional texts on aspects that involve murdering a spouse of being murdered by one. In synastry her Mars would set off that aspect. Wouldn't Moon in the 8th overcome by Saturn like that be alarming for a man's chart? I vaguely remember such things in traditional texts, such as Tetrabiblos, but can't seem to find references that I looked at in the past. If anyone has traditional sources on significators involving murder of a spouse, do share. Wagner doesn't have strong indications of a temper beyond Moon square Uranus (which can sometimes show a hair trigger emotional response) but he does have indications of jealousy and cold-heartedness (Scorpio rising, night chart with Saturn influencing just about everything and also opposite Moon). It seems like he wouldn't have killed her outright with his hands, but I could see him leaving her out in the water, despite cries for help, for example.
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EleanorLouise



Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Posts: 63

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll take a look at it and give my opinion. Maybe it will lead to an interesting discussion. But, I'll be back with my view of her chart by friday this week.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 751

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Wood,_Natalie

I noticed that in some victims of murder, Mars is significant by natal aspects and transits at the time. Natalie Wood's Mars is strongly aspected in her chart, she has a Sun, Mars, Pluto conjunction, and has transits at the time of her death, Uranus transits her natal Mars' antiscion, and also transiting Neptune, which may signify that she drowned and it was a sudden and unexpected event.

I don't know, just an observation, that death by natural causes is often synchronous with transits and arcs to the natal Sun, and murder and suicide victims it is Mars that is affected.

It seems she had been drinking alcohol and her blood at autopsy found to contain a motion sickness drug and a painkiller that would increase the effects of alcohol.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 755

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe from reports they had all been drinking and she had threatened to leave the ship before. It is possible she got into the dingy herself but the cries for help heard by witnesses seem to suggest Wagner may have been around to hear them (hearsay).

She had many bruises consistent with an altercation, though, and witnesses say one of the rooms in the ship was previously clean but that night had been out of sorts, as if a struggle occurred there.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 755

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more violent death by a spouse is Phil Hartman. https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hartman,_Phil

I agree Mars is involved in more violent deaths or ones that involve physical altercations and blood. Phil had 7th ruler in fall in the 8th and its ruler Venus in the 7th square Mars in jealous Scorpio (and Venus was conjunct Pluto while also opposite Venus in his wife's chart). Mars was in Aqu in both his wife's and Natalie's husband's charts and one normally doesn't equate Mars in Aquarius with a violent streak but they also both had Moon with a hard aspect to Uranus, which in my experience can show volatile and unpredictable emotions.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Couple of quick points: The thread went from "unsolved" to "her husband must have done it," in a few hundred words. And then "Since he did kill her, where is it in her chart?"

That's a bit much, no? My wife can't swim and she used to go in sailboats all the time. This boat wasn't in the open water, but rather it was docked, and it wasn't the first time she was on it, so her lack of swimming ability is hardly a reason for suspicion. Besides no one can swim when they are unconscious. "Got drunk, fell off the boat, hit her head and drowned," is not irrational. Maybe that didn't happen, but it's not far fetched.

Re: Her chart and husband. She was married three times, twice to Wagner. Saturn in Aries is an indication of destruction of the marriage, but not necessarily murder, although Mars in Cancer (fall) disposits Saturn (also in his fall). There might be a mundane square between them. Venus rules the 8th or the nature or circumstances of her death. Venus is in the 11th house (Placidus) but 12th sign (Virgo - an earth sign). Using whole signs, Venus in Virgo (fall) in 12 could indicate mystery surrounding her death or "self undoing" caused her death, i.e. got drunk, fell in the water, hit her head and drowned. Whole signs puts her Moon (exalted) in the 8th ruling the 10th - a very public death. Moon has analogy with "the people," and rules the MC.

Robert Wagner is 88 years old. The chances of his ever being charged in this are wildly remote, even if they thought they could make a case now 36+ years after Natalie Wood's death. They would need drop dead solid forensic evidence of his guilt, and that isn't going to happen at this late date. The only way we would ever know if he had anything to do with it, is if he leaves a confession after his death.

Someone may wish to look at some of the Arabic parts in her chart such as treachery, murder, death (there are a few of those) etc. They might be more revealing.

If I get a chance, I'll run the primary directions and look at this the way John Worsdale might have looked at it. This story is right up his alley.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 755

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
: The thread went from "unsolved" to "her husband must have done it," in a few hundred words. And then "Since he did kill her, where is it in her chart?"


I was more so trying to see if anyone had traditional significations on murdering of a spouse/being murdered by a spouse and was using hers/his chart as an example to maybe examine that and come to a better conclusion, but I can't seem to remember these sources very well and am not super motivated to go research them and seek them out. I haven't seen any threads on the subject matter.

Whether or not he did it I am not sure, but I think, based on the evidence, if this occurred now he would have been a person of interest much sooner and that his influence protected him if he was guilty. As I mentioned, her lack of swimming ability was hardly the only reason for suspicion. Witnesses reported a fight (things turned over) and her body had bruises consistent with that. She was also heard screaming for help and he was the last person alone with her. She had previously told people she feared for her life around him also and ran to a neighbor's once after an altercation. Witnesses were threatened also and there is evidence Wagner contacted the president to intervene with the investigation. The only evidence I read that makes sense that it was an accident is that she had previously tried ways of leaving the boat to get away from Wagner and their heated argument might have triggered an irrational response to leave in the middle of the night, in spite of her fear of the water (maybe she was more afraid of Wagner than the water). If that is the case, they would have been in the middle of a heated argument, so he would have been awake to hear her screams (that were reported by witnesses).
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saturn in the 7th in aries might be an indicator of dying at the hands of a partner... that shows up some of the time.. saturn is in the 8th house of venus - ruler of the 8th - too..
i don't think saturn in the 7th is enough of an indicator and it must be a part of a larger picture that points to this..

mars - ruler of the 7th conjunct pluto is more interesting here, but aside from it not being a traditional perspective - including pluto - it does bring up the possibility of violence - in a wide square to saturn - more so... but, one could wonder how much of it is on the part of the person, as opposed to the spouse too... the moon while out of sign to mars/pluto - is square by aspect - again a non traditional viewpoint on the topic of natalie woods chart anyway and a symbol for violence being an ongoing theme in the persons life..

i guess what i am saying is it is a coin toss just how much violence and hardship a person with a chart like this would inflict on their partner, just as much as how much her partner would inflict it on her.. saturn in the 7th in aries - and ruled by mars in cancer - doesn't look pretty, but i suspect she is responsible for much of her own self undoing here and wouldn't be quick to lay the responsibility for her death on her partner... venus and neptune in the 12th contribute to this.. venus in the 12th ruling the 8th - i think it is more likely she died from her own weaknesses, then at the hands of her partner..
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I guess what i am saying is it is a coin toss just how much violence and hardship a person with a chart like this would inflict on their partner, just as much as how much her partner would inflict it on her.. saturn in the 7th in aries - and ruled by mars in cancer - doesn't look pretty, but i suspect she is responsible for much of her own self undoing here and wouldn't be quick to lay the responsibility for her death on her partner... venus and neptune in the 12th contribute to this.. venus in the 12th ruling the 8th - i think it is more likely she died from her own weaknesses, then at the hands of her partner.


Yes, even if there is potential it does not mean it will happen, but in general an astrologer who has a client with a placement like that might warn them to be careful to not help create violent encounters with spouses. One of my sisters has Mars ruling the 1st in Libra on her DSC and Saturn in Aries on her ASC (in opposition), on the angles, and her husbands have not killed her but both did try and were physically abusive, but she also was combative and made poor choices. She also has Mercury besieged between them. She never helped the situation and helped it escalate. It is possible that if Wagner killed her or let her die, she could have behaved differently and stopped it from happening, if she were a more evolved and mature person when it comes to relationships. She probably wouldn't have re-entered into a relationship with him to begin with, if she had seen the situation more rationally. Unfortunately, in a lot of cases that involve abuse or murder with a spouse, if the victim had been more cautious they could have avoided the situation (obviously it does not excuse the behavior of any abuser or murderer).

As I said, my theory is that he does have a temper but if he did kill her it would have more likely not been by hand because he seems potentially rather cold, but by letting her die (by her own mistake of leaving the boat).
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
She never helped the situation and helped it escalate.....

As I said, my theory is that he does have a temper but if he did kill her it would have more likely not been by hand because he seems potentially rather cold, but by letting her die (by her own mistake of leaving the boat).


tanit - you seem quite perceptive and i was curious as to why you were pursuing this topic and you have given me your answer.. thanks... i don't know where your sister is at presently, but i hope you are able to encourage her to see how she is an active participant in the circumstances of her life..

i think your comment on wood/wagner is very insightful and completely realistic.. we will never know, but i think your comments are valid..

meanwhile - finding a way forward in the area of our chart where difficulty is pronounced is always a challenge.. there are never any easy answers, but it is helpful to have astrology to understand it some - better..
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I was more so trying to see if anyone had traditional significations on murdering of a spouse/being murdered by a spouse and was using hers/his chart as an example to maybe examine that and come to a better conclusion,


Like I said it was the thread or topic would have been a better word, that i referred to - not any individual.
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