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Heliacal setting w. saturn, jupiter, & mars?

 
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EleanorLouise



Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Posts: 63

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 1:46 am    Post subject: Heliacal setting w. saturn, jupiter, & mars? Reply with quote

Hello,

I was wondering about Heliacal rising with the 3 slowest planets....my question is:

example saturn or jupiter is 4 degrees of a sign and sun is 13 degrees of a sign.
I feel is not Heliacal setting because sun moves faster than jupiter and saturn so they are really separating. This looks to be Heliacal rising.

Jupiter or saturn at 13 degrees of a sign and sun at 4 degrees of a sign would look more like Heliacal setting because it's aspecting not separating

Which of these two scenarios is actually Heliacal setting?

Jupiter moves 4 minutes 59 secs and saturn moves 2 minutes 01 secs daily.
Mars is the 3rd slowest moving planet out of the traditional planets because it moves at 31 minutes daily, but the difference in movement is about 28 minutes and 19 seconds compared to Sun (59 min 08 secs daily.) But I would assume with mars if it was at 4 degrees of a sign and sun was at 13 degrees of a sign this would be Heliacal rising vs Mars being 13 degrees of a sign and sun at 4 degrees of sign this would be Heliacal setting. Is my viewpoint right is this scenario?
But I feel my thought pattern with mars is contradicting because Sun is a faster moving planet than mars, this would cause sun to be the indicator of separating or aspecting with conjunctions.


If this doesn't make sense maybe my thought pattern is just completely inaccurate.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 755

Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But I would assume with mars if it was at 4 degrees of a sign and sun was at 13 degrees of a sign this would be Heliacal rising vs Mars being 13 degrees of a sign and sun at 4 degrees of sign this would be Heliacal setting. Is my viewpoint right is this scenario?
But I feel my thought pattern with mars is contradicting because Sun is a faster moving planet than mars, this would cause sun to be the indicator of separating or


If Mars is 4 degrees and Sun 13, it is a separating. Mars is slower than the Sun, so if at a lesser degree, it is not going to suddenly speed up and beat it by 9 degrees. The Sun does have a little bit of variance in speed but even then Mars won't beat it. I think the question is harder with Venus and Mercury, since their speeds are closer to the Sun but vary. I would check an ephemeris with them.
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Levente Laszlo



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Budapest, Hungary

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Eleanor,

Your scheme is actually correct. A celestial object is said to be heliacally rising (which is morning rising) when its zodiacal degree is lower than the sun's (e.g., the star is on the 5th degree, the sun is on the 20th), because this is how it can be above the eastern horizon while the sun is still below it. Correspondingly, it is heliacally setting (it's the same as evening setting) when its zodiacal degree is higher than the sun's (e.g., the sun is on the 5th degree, the star is on the 20th); this makes it possible for the celestial body to still be above the western horizon with the sun beneath it.

The distance between the star and the sun should be as much as to enable us to see the star in the twilight. It's called "the arc of vision", which depends on the luminosity of the star or the albedo of the planet (its ability to reflect light, affecting visibility) and the sun's horizontal altitude (the deeper it is, the darker the sky is), and this latter is also the function of the sun's ecliptical position and the geographical latitude of the observer. Conventionally, though, it was taken as 15 zodiacal degrees in the antiquity.

Also, you may want to distinguish between first and last appearances. For example, the first morning rising is on the day when the star first rises visibly and then rises earlier and earlier, as the distance between it and the sun increases. Conversely, the last evening setting is on the day when the star appears to set for the last time, and in the following days, it's too close to the sun to be visible. The celestial objects that are always slower than the sun (fixed stars, Saturn, Jupiter, and Mars) have these two heliacal phases: first morning rising and last evening setting. But the others (Venus and Mercury on the one hand, and the moon on the other) have partly or entirely different phases, a result of their relative speeds to the sun's.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 755

Posted: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the first post confusing regarding aspects, though. She says Mars, Jupiter, Saturn at a lesser degree than Sun is not separating when it is a separating aspect (heliacal rising/setting topic aside). A planet that is applying or separating is always aspecting, so the terms she uses are odd.

They are separating but it is also helical rising. All three planets at a lower degree would be the same in the explanation because they are slower than the Sun regarding aspect, but any planet at a lower degree is going to rise before the Sun.

This is odd:

Quote:
Jupiter or saturn at 13 degrees of a sign and sun at 4 degrees of a sign would look more like Heliacal setting because it's aspecting not separating


"Aspecting not separating"? What does that mean? A separation is an aspect. Does she mean applying, because this is a separation not an application?

Maybe she is using a reference I am not understanding.

Quote:
But the others (Venus and Mercury on the one hand, and the moon on the other) have partly or entirely different phases, a result of their relative speeds to the sun's.


Yes, vespertine and matutine heliacal rising/setting is slightly different but the aspect concepts are still important to understand.

If anyone is interested, here is a thread on the topic (and related ones): http://www.skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5465&sid=84268784f19fb7f6f422c8ffb0d2e06b
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