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The main reason I suscepted a child was due to the first chart but I do think this chart seems more radical. The 5th could also be emphasizing the younger of the two suspects. I was going back and forth on gender and it was not very clear but there are feminine indicators, especially since Mecury is influenced by the Moon. Now the 6th house rulership of the Sun makes more sense also - servant. I do think it is just one person who did this but Saturn dispositing her could represent the older person influencing her behavior or maybe benefiting from it. I don't think the Sun is the other person, especially based on your description of them. Combustion is very common in charts dealing with criminals in general because they do things in secret yet out in the open and often the truth eventually is known with this signification. There was another money theft chart with the Sun involved that I can see in my mind but can't remember the specific link in Skyscript, and this chart reminded me of it a bit - it was one Deb commented on and I always remembered. The Sun represents truth and it being angular suggests the truth being made out in the open, so I do think Mr. X was correct and their decision was based on an unbiased point of view - that is how their planet is represented by being Jupiter in Libra, approaching from a sign that is beneficial to the money and resources and not really their own self interests. Libra is a sign of balance, justice and unbiased ways of thinking.

If the servant was suspended, has she returned to work there? Hopefully she is not doing it again - that would be pretty stupid. The Moon with Mercury (translating the light of the asc ruler too) is the primary indicator that she is guilty but she is also represented as a thief in every classical way I can think of. The Moon is also applying to an antiscia aspect with Venus - a loss of money that is covert. Venus as the 2nd ruler, I think is prohibited from aspecting Saturn via Jupiter (if I am seeing the ephemeris right) and Saturn is cadent anyway, so there is no other party that seems outright guilty to me. The Moon would be unlikely to describe them since a lunar person, especially in a phlegmatic sign, would more likely be quite fleshy or even obese. I think the Moon is just representing the subject matter in this case.

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"The Moon would be unlikely to describe them since a lunar person, especially in a phlegmatic sign, would more likely be quite fleshy or even obese"

Tanit I'm very much curious why you did not consider the Moon herself as the culprit here. I am interested for the physical description of the moon fits well with Ms Y.

Thanks for your help.
Last edited by Serene on Mon May 27, 2019 5:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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It’s a puzzling case, Serenity, thanks for the PM!

If I’m not mistaken there is translation of light – Mars receives the Moon by his domicile, the Moon carries light of Mars to Mercury. Also are there some collections of light as well? But here, I’m not sure – Venus receives Jupiter by domicile but Mercury has no dignity (in day triplicity) -- nevertheless, can Mercury receive Jupiter? Another one; can Saturn collect light of Venus? Between Jupiter and Saturn, yes (I’m looking at Venus, Jupiter and Saturn trio). Could someone help me on these? Thanks!

Serenity, I have a few private details so I will send PM later.

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Tanit3333

The Moon with Mercury (translating the light of the asc ruler too) is the primary indicator that she is guilty but she is also represented as a thief in every classical way I can think of.
Sorry, I missed the above... So this means there’s no collection of lights (Tanit would have spotted them).

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It’s a puzzling case, Serenity, thanks for the PM!

If I’m not mistaken there is translation of light – Mars receives the Moon by his domicile, the Moon carries light of Mars to Mercury. Also are there some collections of light as well? But here, I’m not sure – Venus receives Jupiter by domicile but Mercury has no dignity (in day triplicity) -- nevertheless, can Mercury receive Jupiter? Another one; can Saturn collect light of Venus? Between Jupiter and Saturn, yes (I’m looking at Venus, Jupiter and Saturn trio). Could someone help me on these? Thanks!

Serenity, I have a few private details so I will send PM later.
I am in a Venus profection and have an awful Venus, and when Venus went sour, life dumped a lot of trouble in my lap and I am not keeping up with anything in here. I haven't had time to look at PMs and probably won't until November. I thought I already mentioned the Moon translating light of Mars to Mercury and that putting more emphasis on Mercury as the thief. The Moon is always co-sig of the matter and Moon here emphasizes losses to the querent and trouble to their psyche/happiness, etc (querent in the 12th too) and it is giving the light of the querent to the thief, where the thief prefects the matter, but someone retrograde, peregrine and combust completes (or ruins, I guess) the question/matter in bad and dysfunctional ways (guilty ways). To me, this combined is the primary answer to the question. Notice too that the thief does not receive the querent - this is similar to the relationship of Mercury and Jupiter where Jupiter does not "like" Mercury. The thief maybe does not care for the querent in some respect, although there is a loose sextile, or does not care if their actions hurt the querent perhaps. To me, when someone approaches from someone's fall, the other party sees them with disappointment (Jupiter towards Mercury here) - they may have once cared for them but something the other party did made that change (fall from grace, etc.), or maybe the other party already saw them in bad ways and has been repeatedly disappointed by them. Detriment to me is a bit different, where the other party can sometimes see them as an enemy, hates them, does not understand them, or just basically does not care for them. Frawley would say the reverse (the sign you approach from indicates feelings) - where you approach from is important too but how the other party views you is also important. Approaching from a sign that someone does not like could mean the querent also just does not behave in a way that she actively wishes to please the thief or have a good relationship with them, for example, so it can work in negative ways for both involved when someone applies from a sign of the other's bad dignity. It usually has some meaning though and I think is probably important in understanding some of motive of the thief. Maybe the thief did it to this person because they just plain old did not like them, or how they perceived they treated them. There is also an unequal reception here, as can be the case in difficult situations between two people, and I imagine the thief probably felt they behaved in ways that were great towards the querent (which they feel was the opposite of what they got in return?) or that their behavior was in some way justified, since they approach from the querent's exaltation.

Collection of light occurs when two planets do not normally aspect and a third planet brings them together by receiving both of their aspects, and in doing so perfecting the matter on their behalf. Jupiter, as I said already, is emphasized in a positive way and receives the light of Venus before Venus aspects Saturn, if the ephemeris I looked at was correct (I didn't test it out like I normally do by fast forwarding the chart). It would make sense, since Jupiter is less degrees by minutes than Saturn also and if it aspected Saturn before Venus, then that would still be prohibition, so in either case it would have to be prohibition. So prohibition, not collection of light, and Mercury is retrograde, it is moving away from Jupiter and towards combustion in the chart, so Jupiter would not collect its light (and collecting the light of such an afflicted planet would be hard to lead to anything positive for that planet) but the strainful square between them with Jupiter not receiving Mercury due to Mecury being in the sign of Jupiter's fall suggests disappointment for Jupiter towards Mercury and Jupiter wanting to incite justice towards them (Jupiter on an angle in Libra in the 7th). Is Jupiter prohibiting Saturn from Venus because it is protecting Saturn? Possibly, as there is mutual reception between them, but I don't see great emphasis on Saturn as the guilty party here, other than ansticia Moon and being dispositor of Mercury, meaning it has influence over its behavior. Maybe Saturn was a bad influence on Mercury but that does not excuse Mercury's behavior, basically. It could also be dispositor just because it is emphasizing their shared work position and entanglement in the situation. Saturn in the day and in the 9th aspecting two benefics, and being received by the greater, is highly mitigated and not what I would call particularly malefic. It also does not make a Ptolemaic aspect to the querent or the Moon. My guess is they may have somehow influenced the situation through their own behavior somehow (such as saying bad things about customers), but that behavior is not likely outright the way that the thief was because Saturn is cadent and, again mitigated, making it a nicer or more honest sort of Saturn. They may have even been the primary reason the thief was caught because they were honest about interactions between them, for example.

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Hi Tanit, thank you so much for writing the detailed explanations. Your description of Jupiter and Saturn is very interesting and solved some of my puzzling questions. I’m looking forward to see you again in November.

Take care!

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Hi Serene, my initial overall reading (via PM) is still the same. In regards to what Tanit said on Oct 10th about Saturn as highly mitigated and not particularly malefic -- that makes sense and I am now adding it to the existing Saturn profile. I’ve placed Saturn as Mercury’s mental state (at various stages) and am not identifying Saturn as any particular person.

Also I’ve just remembered when doing a missing item horary, 11th house represents a guest bedroom. So in that room the thief found both Venus and P of F.