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Native/Transit/Mundane Chart of London or UK for 7.7.2005...
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
His Sun is at 23 Sag, his Neptune is at 26 Sag, and the noon chart for his date of birth shows the Moon at 24 Sag. His Sun, Moon and Neptune conjunction show an intense, idealistic and impressionable young man.


[What follows is a Neptune rant; nothing more]

What does "idealistic" mean? The American Heritiage Dictionary says an idealist is:


Quote:
One whose conduct is influenced by ideals esp. when they are in conflict with practical considerations.


Deb didn't say that this person's actions were idealistic, in fact lots of people are looking at this noon chart and using the same word, so please don't misunderstand what follows. I told you; it's a rant. However, I think what happened last week is a bit more than "conflict with practical considerations." Wouldn't "delusional" be a better word to describe Neptune in this case or perhaps in any case where Neptune is prominent?

Delude: "To deceive the mind or judgment." (same dictionary) Therefore, one who is delusional is one whose mind and/or judgment is deceived. It's not functioning properly. Unless we are going to grant that the actions taken on London subways last week are adherence to ideals and the moral equivilant of being a member of the Labor or Tory parties and blowing up innocents the same as taking a position on an issue, I think we're going to have to say "delusional" is a more appropriate delineation of Neptune's influence than is "idealistic." Otherwise we may have to start referring to those old idealists, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, and maybe even Jack the Ripper. He had strong beliefs that involved killing people, too.

I have this feeling that moderns would prefer to see Neptune as "nice" or at least potenially nice and not be so "fatalistic," therefore it is better to associate Neptune with something acceptable like "idealism," rather than an improperly functioning mind. At the very least, Neptune advocates should have some standards to determine when Neptune is idealistic (if ever) and when Neptune is delusional. But this assumes that delusion is an extension or extreme degree of idealism, and I doubt that's true. We sometimes think of idealists as wildy impractical, but we hardly ever associate murderous activities with them. Perhaps the case can be made that idealists are all potentially delusional, but I think that is a hard corner from which to fight. I think of John Paull II and the Dali Lama as idealistic in the finest sense. I'll look for Neptune's influence in their charts another time.

In this chart, for example, Neptune is combust, as is the Moon. And I believe the Moon would be considered combust all day. In the Noon chart, it is a tight combustion. If we combine this with the Mars - Saturn mutual reception and square, and note the Jupiter is the ruler of the 9th (in the Noon chart) and posited in the 8th, we get a pretty good picture of his "ideals." They consist of death and destruction. Not a pretty sight.

There is something wrong with people, who are born and raised in one of the world's best places to live and grow who can see nothing but evil everywhere they look and think the solution to the evil is random acts of murder accompanied by suicide. [I note in passing the guy who talked them into this is still alive and, sadly, probably well] There is a serious disconnect that is well beyond political or even religious beliefs (although he may have called it that). This is mental illness at best. That an individual can be persuaded to take the lives of innocents and his own in the bargain for the sake of ... what? He lost his connection with humanity or he willingly surrendered it, and that was before he killed all those people. And he did more to accomplish the opposite of his ends than anything else. Neptune is delusion, and having a combust Moon made it worse.

Tom
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

I also think you have a good point. But bear in mind that we have judged this man delusional because of his actions, yet the people who knew him, who were shocked to discover he was involved because of his ‘gentle manner’ don’t describe him as such. It is interesting that the Daily Mail summarised his character by saying “- he was young, idealistic and impressionable”. They don’t use the terms ‘idealistic and impressionable’ in reference to the other bombers they profile, even though one was 4 years younger – so the people who knew this man tended to think of him as idealistic and yet I am sure they would now admit that the term ‘delusional’ was apt. Perhaps there is a thin line between the two. With the Sun and Moon conjunct (as you say the Moon will be combust at whatever time of day he was born) he would have been intense and lacking balance, and with Neptune involved impressionable and needing some cause to ‘sacrifice’ himself to. Pluto’s transit coincided with the period where he was described as becoming ‘consumed with religious fervour’ – obviously he was in touch with dark political forces. I haven't looked at his chart long enough to see more than the obvious.

BTW, birth data released for two of the other bombers are:

Mohhammad Sadique Khan – 30 year old bomber of tube at Edgware Rd – 20 October 1974, Leeds.

This man had the Sun, Uranus, & Mars closely conjunct and Venus not far away:
Venus – 22 Libra
Mars – 25 Libra
Sun – 27 Libra
Uranus – 28 Libra

Hasib Mir Hussain – 18 year old bomber of the bus in Tavistock Square – 16 September 1986, Leeds.
I‘ve only had a quick glance at the charts but there’s nothing obvious in this one which would earmark him as prone to extreme action – at least not that I can see.
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###



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Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have this feeling that moderns would prefer to see Neptune as "nice" or at least potenially nice and not be so "fatalistic," therefore it is better to associate Neptune with something acceptable like "idealism," rather than an improperly functioning mind. At the very least, Neptune advocates should have some standards to determine when Neptune is idealistic (if ever) and when Neptune is delusional. But this assumes that delusion is an extension or extreme degree of idealism, and I doubt that's true. We sometimes think of idealists as wildy impractical, but we hardly ever associate murderous activities with them. Perhaps the case can be made that idealists are all potentially delusional, but I think that is a hard corner from which to fight. I think of John Paull II and the Dali Lama as idealistic in the finest sense.


There is an elusive assumption here that idealism is good, if sometimes impractical. Being idealistic is often equated with being guided by a high moral standard. It’s easy for us to imagine John Paul II and the Dalai Lama as idealistic, but it sounds wrong to refer to Hitler as such. But if we allow idealism its neutral meaning of following an idea, a mental image, the personal inner experience and its potential (probable?) conflict with reality—for good or evil—becomes apparent. The link of ‘idea’ and ‘ideal’ with Platonic archetypes as eternal forms and patterns may shed some light on Neptunian ‘idealism’. But that’s part of the Neptune evasiveness: how does one sit down and think about archetypes?

Concerning the event: Did the Moon do its work in naming the bombers from Libra when it again activated the square by opposing Mars (the Warrior) and squaring the Sun? If I have my timing right, the announcement was made during the transit.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:20 am    Post subject: eclipse Reply with quote

From Deb:
Quote:
It might be a good exercise to look at the next solar eclipse at 21 Libra, and start considering which national charts show sensitivity around that degree.


I found this on http://www.astrologycom.com/2005yearahead.html from Richard Gilles

Quote:
Four eclipses happen in 2005. The first are in April 8th (Solar) and 24th (Lunar). The second one is directly opposite the Lunar eclipse point of 28th October last year. The most interesting two are the Solar eclipse on 3rd October and the Lunar one of 17th October with the Sun in Libra. The first squares Australia's national Capricorn Sun exactly (we were born as a nation on 1st January 1901) and the second conjuncts our progressed Sun (our evolving nationhood). Those six months onwards from October 2005 will see some very big challenging shifts in Australia's identity and national development. There'll be a lot of soul-searching about our international and national roles.


Hope it helps, since I don~t know what is the data for australia :-)

He also agrees with me that the period November/december is very dangerous...

But I wouldn~t open a "dangerous configuration for november thread", or people would accuse me of being a bearer of omens (?0
:-)
Yuzuru
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Tom
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Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HI Deb,

Quote:
But bear in mind that we have judged this man delusional because of his actions, yet the people who knew him, who were shocked to discover he was involved because of his ‘gentle manner’ don’t describe him as such.


You're too kind, "we" didn't judge him delusional, I did Wink and if he had come to someone for a reading, the astrologer certainly would not have said, "Hmmm according to this, you're delusional." Hindsight is always 20-20. I try to see the chart as value neutral, although I find it difficult to be that way myself. So my remarks were more aimed at the potential malice of Neptune. If we ever see a combust Neptune - Moon conjunction again, we might be less charitable in our conclusions. To me it will always be a red flag.

Elsewhere on this thread someone mentions the idea that "idealistic" isn't always good. Strictly speaking, that's true. People can and do stick to bad and sometimes evil principles. Infamous American gangster Al Capone insisted he was just a businessman (with rather severe competitive practices). He believed that. He was sticking to a principle: it is just fine to give people what they want even if it is illegal liquor, gambling, and prostitution, and you have to kill in order to maintain your customer base.

There are always denotations and connotations, and the connotation of "idealist" always seems to be admirable, if possibly a little loopy.. The person sitting in a tree in order to prevent it from being cut down is an idealist. Loopy perhaps, but not evil. It is the connotation I was aiming at. We have to use some words to describe what we see in the chart, and "idealist," in the value neutral sense is certainly valid here. Results showed us how the promise of the chart played out.

Tom
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hel141



Joined: 21 Jun 2005
Posts: 4

Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject: Moon Reply with quote

Hi Everyone

Please can someone take a few seconds to explain why the moon is so important in these cases? I am a complete beginner and either have knowledge missing or am having a x hair moment!

I can follow through the rest and can reach similar (although on a much more basic level), conclusions, but I am missing something with the moon.

Can someone point me in the right direction, please?

thanks

hel
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I suggest you read the short piece by David Plant at http://www.skyscript.co.uk/sublunar.html

This should help you understand why the Moon is so important.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:42 pm    Post subject: Was it Suicide? Reply with quote

I've seen two references to this possibility, and think it is relevant to the idealist/delusional topic mentioned above.

Although it is highly likely these young men were suicide bombers, there are a few observers who suggest, I've seen no definitive claims, that they were duped. In other words, they didn't expect to be blown up. Someone did that for them. The two reasons given are that it is unusual for suicide bombers to have ID on them thereby making it a bit easier to trace them and their movements, and all these men had such ID, and, most intriguing of all, London Authorities discovered timers at each scene. If one is pushing the button himself, why does one need a timer? All three bombs went off pretty much simultaneously in order to keep authorities from shutting down the tubes after one blast and minimizing loss of life. But, all of the bombers were intelligent enough to tell time, I would think, and could easily have synchronized their watches.

In my view this changes little to nothing regarding the chart we discussed. One does not become elevated to idealist, if he thinks the bombs will be used by someone else, but it does change things a little bit in terms of motive and wilingness to die.

Again these are thoughts of others, no one to my knowledge is saying definitively that this is the case, but we might look at the charts a bit differently with this in mind.

Tom
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hel141



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Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb

Thanks for the link. I still don't fully understand, but now I know which direction I'm going in.

Thanks again

hel
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The BBC website at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4703853.stm includes a list of all the relevant times from the first reports of yesterday’s (21st July) four explosions to the shooting of a suspected suicide bomber on the underground at 10:00 am today.

To recap - from the BBC site:

“Four attempted bombings in London were designed to kill people, the head of the Metropolitan Police has said.
The attacks came exactly two weeks after the explosions in the capital which killed over 50 people.
Again devices were left on three Tubes and a bus but this time it is believed they only partially exploded.”

It is thought the explosives used were made at the same time as the 7/7 bombs, but that they had degraded over time so that only the detonators and not the bombs exploded.

The chart below is cast for 12:25 pm, 21-7-05. By 1:30 pm, the time of the bus bomb, Mars had hit the descendant.


The first attack occurred on a new Moon, and this one on the full Moon. It is interesting that this time the Moon had separated from its square of Mars and opposition of the Sun, and was VOC, applying to the opposition of Saturn over a sign boundary.
As that Sun-Mars square is remaining tight, the Moon’s conjunction with Mars next Wed could show another critical period in these series of events.
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The first attack occurred on a new Moon, and this one on the full Moon. It is interesting that this time the Moon had separated from its square of Mars and opposition of the Sun, and was VOC,


Moon VOC - nothing will come of the matter. That is an exaggeration, of course, but mercifully the attack failed in its goal.

Tom
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haku



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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

about moon VOC: if i recall well, moon was VOC also when the twin towers came down... it did not entirely go as they planned and may not have teh results they wanted, yet it did have consequences. that made me think taht "nothing will come of thze matter" is open to interpretations
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Sue



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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think VOC is one definition that seems to have taken on a life of its own and transpired into something somewhat different from its original meaning.

In CA, Lilly says something like 'you shall seldom see business go handsomely forward', or words to that effect, when the Moon is VOC. This, to me, is quite different from 'nothing will happen', or 'nothing will come of it,' or 'there is nothing to worry about,' all of which I have seen describe VOC. I agree that VOC may be open to interpretation and should be judged on each individual chart. I have just had a quick look through my data base and found several VOC charts that have had tragic circumstances. These are event charts and different from horary. However, say, for example, someone who was to take a train journey asks the question 'Will my train trip be enjoyable?' and there is a VOC Moon. Do you judge that as 'there is nothing to worry about' or 'business may not go handsomely forward?' - two entirely different interpretations. There is a reason that VOC Moon is a 'Consideration before Judgement' and I'm not sure it is as simple as 'nothing will come of it.'

Even though VOC Moon is one of the 'Considerations before Judgement' Lilly has also at times given positive judgements on charts where the Moon is VOC. One that I remember is whether the Earl of Essex should take Reading. From memory, I don't think he mentioned the Moon being VOC but he judged that the Earl should take Reading chiefly due to the reception between the Earl's significator and the Moon. This makes sense to me. The difficulty I see with VOC Moon is that it has no direction and is unable to confer benefit, which is a problem when the Moon is such an essential part of any chart. However, if it is receiving benefit from a planet or planets due to reception, it is more likely to be able to act. This is only how I see it but I'm not sure that there is any definitive answer. Definitive answers weren't really Lilly's style. Neutral
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Sue has it exactly right. As I said, "nothing will come of the matter" was an exaggeration. There were a lot of frightened people and a disruption and more added fear. This is hardly "nothing." But it wasn't as bad as it could have been or would have been had the bombers succeeded.

Regarding 9/11. I don't recall if the Moon was void or not, but as Sue points out, other factors in the chart can override that single testimony, and often do. Nothing in the literature says the Moon VOC is omnipotent.

Finally, no single mundane chart tells the whole story. The 9/11 chart or the 7/7 chart by themselves are merely transits, some of which occur on a regular basis. It is only in comparrison to other charts that they take on meaning.

Tom
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