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Mystery Chart
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Reminds me of D Trump`s chart


They have some similar indicators of success, such as Sun in the 10th and Regulus rising, but that is all I see. Trump's Moon/Jupiter (both are fruitful planets) link in the 2nd shows opportunities for riches and here we have it in the 8th, suggesting money might come through others or a partner (2nd from the 7th). This guy has a lot of compassionate indicators (and intelligence) that Trump is lacking and Trump has a fiery Mars in Leo on the ASC that shows his impatience, coarseness, etc. Trump also has Sun and Uranus conjunct NN in the 10th, which is rather different. NN is considered the dragon's head, voracious, and in the 10th I could see it as very starved for attention and success, where nothing satisfies it. It can increase the chances of success but it is also very karmic and not very easy. Uranus-NN was something I mentioned in the rapist/murderer's chart recently because it is a placement that lacks boundaries and with the Sun I could see this as even worse, where someone acts like a petulant child because they are so immature, insecure and, again lack boundaries and require too much of their personal expression that they project onto people. I think this is the most important area of Trump's chart that defines his personality, and in my mind, he could even be capable of things like that rapist/murderer. Not everyone with NN-Uranus is going to be capable of those things but Trump in general lacks a lot of other indicators that would alleviate that and his Moon-Uranus is emotionally volatile and his Moon also is influenced by that angular Mars whereas here we have Moon conjunct Jupiter - very, very different. Plus, here we have a water Mars and not angular, so this person is not aggressive, impulsive and rash like that (other than the Pluto trine which is less obvious and in your face, and some Aries influences).

This guy has the complete opposite regarding the ascendant- lovely Venus trine the ascendant. This would suggest a gentleman, although he has some Uranian influences that can make him not want to be too conventional. Still, deep down this person to me seems like a good-natured person who is likely pretty easy to get along with (as long as you don't meet with some of the negative energies of Mercury-Saturn/Uranus, which can sometimes be a bit over critical and possibly dogmatic with the influence of Uranus, and also his Mars-Uranus). I would say his negative influences would present a lot differently than Trump's would. Trump's chart lacks essential dignity also (I didn't look very well but I don't think any of his planets are dignified, other than maybe minor dignity), which tends to be more common in the charts of people who lack basic integrity, which we do not see here - the Sun lacks dignity but its dispositor is itself very dignified, and he has Venus and Jupiter both dignified. They also have a more methodical Mercury, with the influence of Saturn (even an opp still makes someone more careful regarding decisions). Trump is primarily dictated by instinct and makes decisions without thinking them through, shown especially by his Moon and Mars. Trump also has the indications of a potential liar, with Mercury square Neptune.
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
the 29 leo rising is like the trump chart which has been subject to a lot of conversation..


thought i would quote myself from my first post in this thread, lol...

as tanit says and to which i agree - there might be some passing similarity to the charts, like the rising degree area, but after that - they are quite different..

trump sun/moon midpoint is about 21-22 virgo - which is about the same midpoint as his mars/jupiter... if you think that the sun/moon midpoint is important, then you can use it to get more of a flavour of the energy suggested in the sun/moon combo thru this midpoint... in trumps case, sun/moon midpoint is the same as mars/jupiter midpoint.. mars on the ascendant and jupiter in the 2nd or 3rd house sign - strikes me like an aggressive talker, businessman.. now, maybe that is hindsight, but trumps energy seems to be summed up with a greater emphasis on mars/jupiter...

this brings me to the mystery chart.. the sun/moon midpoint is very close to where the venus/pluto opposition is... quite close.. so, it suggests to me that somehow this opposition is a more important energetic force in the mans life then it would first appear like at a glance of the chart... i don't exactly know how it works out, but venus has to do with art, and aesthetics - i agree with tanit - the person is likely more refined artistically with the close trine to neptune too, and must in some way incorporate his artistic sensibilities into his life in some particular way... venus as 9th house, or even 10th sign/house position could express itself as a vocation in higher ed with an artistic bent perhaps..

i am mostly inclined to use mercury as the vocational indicator in this chart, but venus/pluto on the sun/moon midpoint makes me want to modify it to include some creative artistic side as well...
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think Mercury is probably more key in vocation but it can be tricky when Venus and Neptune are emphasized on vocation (Venus rules the 2nd). I might check where the PoF is since sometimes it can help describe where finances come from, but since the 10th ruler is with the 7th ruler and there is a heavy 8th, it seems unlikely that they would just be an artist - it seems like their work would involve other people in some way, such as clients soliciting their work or also partnerships maybe. My best guess is that their work involves technology and art somehow and that it involves other people giving them money, such as via photography or designing something, but then Mercury in the 10th is also very communicative and often involves writing and public speaking and they also have Pluto in the 3rd trine Mars in the 11th, which suggests being an effective communicator in a group setting. So their work could involve working as a team and they might be a leader of such a group. They might do something online that involves these things and have a lot of people working with them or under them, for example.

Regarding his Venus-Pluto opp, I remember Paul having this aspect and he is also a Gemini Sun/Mercury, if I recall, so these two have some things in common. Since Paul asked for advice on strengths and weaknesses, I would say as someone who also has a Venus-Pluto opp trine Neptune (although my Venus-Pluto is angular so maybe more prominent), it can be hard to move past disappointments in romance, which can be devistating. I came to realize I am not made for relationships anyway, but I have other stuff going on. I think I remember James sharing a chart of someone who committed suicide and I remember them having a similar influence (maybe in transit too with Neptune-Venus adding to it? I have a vague memory of it) and I can see it being that painful and have been there myself. I do think there are outlets and it is important to feel inspired by something and to not be consumed with a person. Personally, when my Venus-Pluto manifested, I became a bit dead on the inside regarding Neptunian experiences. I rarely listen to music and I never play the piano anymore and it is as if I do not have those influences anymore. I never truly recovered from my own encounter, I would say, but I made peace with it and I felt like I learned a lot about myself and my inner strength and I turned to non artistic things for inspiration, but that was just how I felt and I think I may have had some chemical shifts in my brain where I focused on rational things, like science. I think this person has many strengths - intellect, creativity, original ideas, excellence in communication, compassion, an understanding of beauty. I think angular retro Saturn is probably one of the hardest influences - maybe Mercury-Saturn and probably the Moon-Saturn links. Even trines to Saturn still add some melancholy to the Moon and both Mercury and the Moon represent the mind and possibly the soul. If someone (probably the father) made him feel rejected or repressed in his youth (4th house), this has likely scarred him and can impact how he feels in adulthood and therapy can be helpful to dig deep into the past. Saturn strengthens us through challenges and makes us strong people, but if we let it fester, it can hold us back because we see things in negative ways rather than for the possibilities they might represent. As someone who lives extrovertedly, he may neglect his own emotions and suppress things that are festering on the inside and it can be important to deal with them. Sometimes people with Saturn in the 4th move away from their country of birth because the memories of their roots are too painful and sometimes it can be beneficial to go back and face those memories and make peace with them. Since he has a nodal Moon, cultivating emotional maturity is something he is probably going to want to do to have more positive experiences with that influence. Often we do the opposite with the nodes, though.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fascinating post tanit... thanks for sharing!

i can't remember sharing a chart as you describe, but it is entirely possible, as my memory seems more short term based!

i especially liked everything you said about saturn in your post.. i feel that is true how having planets in aspect to saturn, favourable or not - colours the chart in a particularly saturnian way as you describe..

but what i wanted to talk about was what you said about saturn in the 4th and moving away from home, or living in a foreign country - which is what i took from it.. you see, i was wondering about this idea of just where the person lives and whether they are spending a lot of time living outside their place of birth due the 9th house venus, or even the 9th sign house - aries with moon / jupiter / north node conjunction... you see, i had been wondering about this, so the idea of saturn in the 4th and not being quite comfortable in their original home environment makes sense... whether they do or don't live in recife brazil anymore, remains to be seen...

it is impossible to live on the internet, but many businesses and work type jobs are involved with the internet.. i recall publishing as a 9th house activity, but what would working and relying heavily on the internet be? i think it would be air signs and 3rd house, but i am curious if others have some thoughts? perhaps the air planets - mercury or uranus prominent would be an important factor too..

anyway - the thought of where this person lives full time - in his country of birth, or outside of it - is an intriguing one for me!
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James - sorry to derail the topic for a minute, but here is your chart that I am referencing:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10148

You had asked why the person committed suicide and it seemed very clear to me that their Venus-Pluto was probably emphasized around that time. Their Venus wasn't really with Neptune but it was in Pisces, so. Notice there is also transit Venus-Pluto (aspecting Mars). Saturn was transiting their Moon, Moon transiting their Saturn, Neptune had a long transit with their Venus/Pluto. I think Moon-Saturn emphasis on top of it was them dealing with some sort of rejection or separation. Anyway, just my impression. I have a relatively good photographic memory that comes in handy with charts.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tanit - thanks for the reminder.. yes, now i recall..

there were a number of transits going on, but i see what you are pointing to.. t pluto on the mars, which is in turn ruler of the aries planets is mostly what i am drawn to... i suppose one could include venus in the wider transit, but without a birth time it is hard to know as much..
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Paul
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to derail the great conversations going on, nor move focus from the mystery chart, but just wanted to comment on the Venus-Pluto aspect, which, as Tanit pointed out, is something we both share. I completely agree with the comments Tanit has made, in fact when I see other charts (or the rare times I see clients), I actually find I run into people with Venus difficult in their chart in some way, often with Venus in debility or with difficult aspects to Saturn and Pluto, and I think difficulty with romance is very much a hallmark of Venus-Pluto, and my own opinion of it is that fundamentally it points to a kind of internal script which says "you're not lovable" or "you are not worthy of love". There can be a tendency to enter into relationships which become transactional for a sense of love - if I do this or don't do that, maybe I'll be loved, or, more likely, maybe I can give myself the illusion of being lovable or feeling accepted for who I am. Sometimes that can mean entering into sexual transactions - I do this or that sexual act because I think that means that then you'll make me feel special, hug me, hold my hand, be affectionate in some way etc. Ultimately I think the only way to get past this is to recognise that other people's opinions of you, including your sexual or romantic partners', are none of your business. That your actions or inactions are not formulae to control or influence the behaviour of others.

One of the things I want to try to encourage here, as opposed to perhaps some of the other mystery charts, then, is to kind of focus on this side of the astrological reading - rather than stick just to "could be good in this job", what kind of interpersonal etc. issues may this person tend to experience, how could we as astrologers help this person, what kinds of things might this person struggle with, or what strengths may they not be aware of.

One of the reasons I don't get involved in mystery charts is that actually the stuff like what job you could be good at or be drawn to isn't all that interesting to me, unless of course you're having a crisis of vocation or of direction - instead I like to see astrology as a tool to help people be the best version of themselves that they can be.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

very nicely stated paul!

for anyone who hasn't read it - liz greene's astrology of fate is a focus on pluto and the difficulties it presents when aspecting planets, especially in hard aspect... venus and pluto contacts - i have the square - are challenging when it comes to relationships..

i had made the comment about this opposition of venus/pluto being on the sun/moon midpoint which emphasizes it even more... it is interesting to see the transit of uranus coming into this area.. this suggests the possibility of astrology being an awaken-er in this specific area of the persons life.. perhaps someone more uranian may come along to shake the more conservative tendancies of venus in taurus up.. at the same time - the transit of uranus to opposition to pluto suggests a big shake up too of a more generational type.. perhaps conservative values towards relationships and money - what i think of with venus in taurus - become more difficult to maintain.. on the other hand, maybe it appears others are trying to maintain them, when it is something more complicated then that..

to go into what you are suggesting - and i agree with your comments paul - the mercury opposite saturn and any hard aspects with these 2 has been said to make it harder to stay positive as i understand them together... there is a tendency for more serious thoughts and again - perhaps more conservative - although offset some by the conjunction of saturn to uranus... hard to know how much uranus plays into this opposition, but the opposition with mercury and saturn is very close.. getting a different perspective from others can be especially helpful instead of only going on the council of oneself...

astrology is made more difficult without feedback or a conversation with the person whose chart is under consideration.. instead of a conversation, we are mostly talking with ourselves about what the symbolism means... the person is needed to communicate what the symbolism might mean for them, or what experiences they have had that have shaped their outlook... in so far as astrology can be helpful to other non astrological students, is really based on their willingness to open up and share with the astrologer.. in this chart there may be an inclination to not open up for fear of the intimacy and vulnerability implied in opening up.. perhaps some experiences from early childhood have framed an approach that led to this, but it is difficult to get beyond it..

more speculation for a friday, lol...
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
astrology is made more difficult without feedback or a conversation with the person whose chart is under consideration.


That is true. Normally, when someone has something they are struggling with, such as a specific area of their life- whether it is family, romance, finance, etc., the chart can be looked at and current influences can be honed in but to ask a general statement on their strengths and weaknesses could take a long time to analyze and explain.

I am also not a psychological astrologer, and I personally think the best way someone can use astrology to understand their strengths and weaknesses is to study their own chart because however good an astrologer is, they will never spend as much time analyzing a chart as the individual who is more personally invested in it. It would be impossible for us to know what they already do or do not know about themselves also.

I think with any potential weakness there is always a strength, and vice versa. For example, the Venus-Pluto opp has its woes in love, but it also increases one's passion in matters of Venus, and immersion into special subjects and to get to the bottom of matters related to Venus. Another example was the mystery chart of the scientist who worked in forensics and Venus-Pluto can make someone obsessed with the beauty in death, so it isn't always negative. Often these people can analyze other people's relationships even better than their own too. I don't necessarily think it means they believe they are not loveable, although that can certainly be the case. I think Pluto tends to force the idea that with romance we are faced head on with feelings of pain, obsession, aversion, losing something, feeling bound to someone when we don't want to feel that way (especially in charts such as his where he is not otherwise the type to want to feel bound to someone like that). From my own influence, I had always felt that love was not real and that the other person was just attempting to use me for whatever reason, and that it required one to be physically pleasing to the other, which I found shallow. Whenever I was approached in romance, it was due to my appearance, and it immediately made me disgusted by that other person (I then met someone different). Often how it is expressed is due to experiences in youth that shaped our beliefs, such as witnessing bad relationships and expecting that one's own will be the same. Oppositions are a struggle but at the same time the two planets are facing one another and see into each other. I think one pro with it is that you cannot fool someone in matters of the heart with this influence, but the trick is to not let Pluto be a self fulfilling prophecy. I do think if he is exceptionally attractive it would be good for him to learn to love someone without them maybe having a chance to base their feelings on his appearance or to at least prove that they care for other reasons. Venus-Pluto can also be very devoted and is usually the one who gets dumped in a given relationship rather than vice versa and they rarely cheat. My nephew (close to my age) also has it and he has had quite a few long term relationships and he always puts his entire heart in it, but anytime something bad happens, however small, he tends to blow it out of proportion because he was secretly expecting it all along (obviously not a good idea). I think taking a day or two to respond is a better idea than reacting immediately in such situations.

I will say that as someone who also has somewhat of a see-saw type of chart and mutability, that we tend to struggle between opposing ideas a lot and some people view this as a weakness because it can suggest being less capable of making decisions. Sometimes this can literally show as going back and forth between hair colors or other ways of physical expression. It can be a struggle with things like holding two concepts dear that have opposing views and don't really make sense together. The pro though is that people with this can see both sides of things much better than others, and are good negotiators and more fair minded. They often have ways of looking at things differently than others because they can see other sides of a situation. If this person keeps part of themselves hidden from others, which is more common with this type of chart, such as living dual lives, I think one obviously should try to break away from that pattern and live their life completely and without fear of disapproval, or whatever reason.
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Mark
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
Quote:
Below is the chart of a male, Andre, and I'm inviting anyone who wants to comment on this chart, in whatever zodiac or house system they wish, to provide insights on this mystery chart.


Hello Paul,

With the ASC just about to change tropical signs I would like to know the reliability of the data this chart is derived from? What would be its rating using Louis Rodden rating? I am hoping AA or A at least? Working primarily with whole signs this is a crucial issue in examining this chart.

Thanks

Mark
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Paul
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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Paul wrote:
Quote:
Below is the chart of a male, Andre, and I'm inviting anyone who wants to comment on this chart, in whatever zodiac or house system they wish, to provide insights on this mystery chart.


Hello Paul,

With the ASC just about to change tropical signs I would like to know the reliability of the data this chart is derived from? What would be its rating using Louis Rodden rating? I am hoping AA or A at least? Working primarily with whole signs this is a crucial issue in examining this chart.

Thanks

Mark


I'm taking the time from some papers (not a birth cert) which was written down by Andrei's mother at the time of the birth, it's possible that it's a few minutes earlier, I've taken the time written down however.
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Fleur



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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great point about the birth time accuracy. I was interpreting the vital 135 degree sesquiquadrate of the Moon to the Ascendant and also that Venus aspects his Ascendant, which are vital to my interpretation.

Also Solar Arcs from the chart angles wouldn't show accurate ages for events if the Ascendant and Midheaven are wrong.

And of course it is hugely significant to have 29 degrees Leo rising, as this the fixed star Regulus, which would shine powerfully if it were within one degree of his Ascendant.

In the Southern Hemisphere, would Leo be a sign of short ascension? The opposite to the Northern Hemisphere, where a few minutes wouldn't make a huge difference?

So thanks Mark for that question. How much later would he have to be born for the Ascendant to move forward by one degree?

The birth time is rounded up to 11.30, so it doesn't look hopeful that the Ascendant is accurate to within one or two degrees. I use a completely different system to Mark, but my system is thrown if the Moon sesquiquadrate Ascendant is more than one degree out of orb. The sign doesn't matter for me.

His Moon is 14 degrees Aries 52 minutes, so my interpretation would only hold if his Ascendant was between 28 degrees Leo 52 minutes and 0 degrees Virgo 52 minutes.

I too was assuming AA accuracy from a birth certificate and hadn't looked to see if the birth time had been rounded up to the nearest half hour, or taken into account that Leo is a sign of short ascension in the Southern Hemisphere.

If the Ascendant is two degrees earlier I can see a totally different scenario.


Last edited by Fleur on Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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moonbright



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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for posting this, Paul - it makes a nice diversion. I’ve only read your introduction so have approached the chart “cold“.

Chart emphases:

Communication
Leadership
Family/home/country
Darker subjects/mysteries
Interpersonally fairly soft/receptive

Careers:

Documentary/cinematic/experimental filmmaker or screenwriter, political journalist or war correspondent, union/political/social justice leader. Alternatively the softer aspects may be utilized as a therapist/counsellor/religious teacher/guide.

Areas of development:

Education is well favoured.
Develop discipline to investigate thoroughly and methodically and be sure of the facts as there is a tendency to jump to conclusions and take action based on those conclusions as well as the possibility of speaking rashly.
During the Saturn return there was an emphasis on work skills, maybe an apprenticeship-type situation and this may continue in some vein as Tr. Saturn influences natal Neptune.

Thanks again for posting the chart.
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does correct birth time to the minute make a huge difference in general readings for you guys? I have close friends who give me rounded birth times (many were born in other countries where birth time didn't seem very significant) and I don't notice huge errors in general readings but I can see it posing a problem with using things like progressions, protections and other predictive techniques. If they have a general idea of birth time that is reliable, that is at least something to work with, although not ideal. My mother claims my own birth time on my birth certificate is incorrect but at the same time the birth time she gives me doesn't always align well with predictive techniques and I wonder if she is a degree or so off. Progressions seem a year or so off by degree. I was born during a sign of long ascension though.

Also, since Paul knows this person and is well studied in astrology, it is probably pretty safe to assume he can tell if the ascendant is Leo or Virgo, which are rather different in expression.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
it is always tricky with these last degrees of an ascendant rising.. the 29 leo rising is like the trump chart which has been subject to a lot of conversation..


quoting myself again in my first post on this thread, lol.. as the issue over just how exact the time is has come up again, just as it did with the trump chart....

fleur - i am curious.. what is your interpretation factoring in just how important the moon 135 ascendant is? i don't believe i saw you articulate anything about what that means to you.. thanks...

tanit question on how important the correct birth time to the minute is? for me personally, it isn't a huge factor.. obviously i get nervous if the chart has an end degree or first degree of a rising sign for this reason - it might change the rising degree and sign! other then that, it isn't a big deal usually.. aspects like 135 or 45 are more of a minor factor... 90 degree aspects can be out a few degrees and are still effective... really for me, i tend to rely on the sign of the ascendant to understand the houses better... what i do is essentially put undue emphasis on the ascendant and much less emphasis on the midheaven axis... i have been thinking about changing this lately too!

i had this thought that some people resonate more to one axis then the other.. for example - a person with a strong chart that emphasizes the midheaven - like this mystery chart basically does - would be better interpreted thru an emphasis on the midheaven and all that implies.. thus - this charts saturn is in the 4th, not the 5th.. the jupiter/moon is in the 8th, not the 9th... and etc. etc..

so, that is more of a dilemma for me at this place i find myself in with regard to reading astro charts... i tend to emphasize the ascendant axis in my own chart much more then the midheaven... in this persons chart after the fact of my comments at the beginning where i emphasize the ascendant more then the midheaven - i might change it all for this particular chart! another issue is just how close the ascendant degree is to the end of leo.. with a slight shift, it would really emphasize the midheaven even more, as virgo rising would put saturn in the natural 4th sign/house, as would jupiter/moon be in the 8th...

i guess it is the dilemma of house systems that i am distracted by...

it is so much easier if one operates from a position of certainty, as opposed to uncertainty... however, i have to go wtih my strength - which is uncertainty, as opposed to certainty!
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