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Mystery Chart
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 758

Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
. with a slight shift, it would really emphasize the midheaven even more, as virgo rising would put saturn in the natural 4th sign/house, as would jupiter/moon be in the 8th...


This would make them a very different person. They would be introverted, demure, more melancholy with an earth sign rising and the ascendant ruler emphasized as retro Saturn. They would also probably be less successful without Regulus rising.

I have a longtime friend with 29 degrees Scorpio rising and for me there is zero question as to her ascendant sign based on knowing her. I suppose it depends on how well you know a person to feel more confident in the ascendant. In some cases, I have predicted ascendants of acquaintances before I knew them well enough to give me their birth time, though, so you may not even need to know them very well. I agree that it could shift the other angles also though.

Since no one has anything to lose by responding, I am not sure why it really matters here, though. They can give their reading based on the given data with a caveat that it could be wrong based on incorrect birth time.
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Paul
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the most interesting charts for me are those who have planets or ascendants at 29 or 0 degrees of a sign. I have Mars at 29 Gemini, Moon at 29 Aquarius, and have always been curious about whether planets 'transition' from one sign to the other, or whether planets on the cusp take part of both qualities.

Having examined this over several years my conclusion is that they don't. There is a fairly dramatic jump between 29 of one sign and 0 of the other. My sister is a 0 degree Aries rising. Nobody could ever accuse my Mars of being in Cancer, nor my Moon of being in Pisces. Similarly this person, who I know very well, is definitely a Leo rising.

The next mystery chart I post may well be someone who is 0 Virgo, in fact he thought he was a Leo and I simply didn't believe it and asked him to see if he can get an exact time and lo and behold it turned out he was a 0 Virgo Sun after all.

I think Virgo rising and Leo rising are very different in their expression and I am pretty comfortable suggesting this person really is a Leo rising man. If the time is incorrect I suspect it may be 5-10 mins earlier.

Edited to add:
In fact the best way to deal with this is with whatever uncertainty you would have of this person came as a client with this time of birth.
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Last edited by Paul on Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moonbright said:
Quote:
Develop discipline to investigate thoroughly and methodically and be sure of the facts as there is a tendency to jump to conclusions and take action based on those conclusions as well as the possibility of speaking rashly.
During the Saturn return there was an emphasis on work skills, maybe an apprenticeship-type situation and this may continue in some vein as Tr. Saturn influences natal Neptune.


Do you mean regarding jumping to conclusions/speaking rashly based on Saturn/Uranus being opp Mercury? I always thought of the influence of Saturn to not act hastily and perhaps be overly cautious, although they can come to the wrong conclusion based on biased information or dogmatic ideas. Maybe you are talking about Uranus?

I think Saturn ruling the 7th would also place emphasis on relationships for the Saturn return but I didn't look at other indicators for the time period, which was recently. During my Saturn return, it influenced many things but it ruled the 7th and that was the house hit hardest. It would also be a good confirmation of Leo rising/Aqu setting.
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two things I noticed because I have seen it manifested in charts are the unaspected sun and saturn retro in 4th. An unaspected sun often means success in career matters as the native has no 'interference' from aspects allowing him to move in a straight line. Saturn retrograde in the 4th, not surprisingly, is a heavy disappointment surrounding the father, often because the native idealizes the father and feels like he himself has been a disappointment, not the other way round. Lots of people have remote, disapproving fathers but this placement informs the child's development and character to a great degree, like he has some flaw that makes him unloveable, but doesn't know what it is.

(I just noticed Paul's description of venus pluto aspects expressing basically the same thing....lol)
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a good point about Saturn in the 4th sometimes can make the father very successful and the child feels like a disappointment. I know someone with Sun conjunct Saturn in the 4th and this is true for him - his father is a retired pathologist (his is in Scorpio, of course) and a millionaire but he is not well educated and works in a lesser job and constantly talks about how successful his father is and idolizes him. When someone thinks of their father this way, Saturn is more often aspected by Sun, in my opinion, because the Sun represents the ego in some sense and Saturn is sort of overshadowing it (which we don't see here). I think Saturn in a fire sign is more difficult and cruel and rejectful at times, perhaps more so when retro, and can see it not working this way, especially with it influencing the Moon in the 8th and being opposite the almuten (and approaching from the sign of its detriment). I guess we will see which of the two cases it ends up being, though (if either case).

I have a peregrine and unaspected Sun influencing my work/income and I agree it isn't too bad and can increase success (I am the most successful person in my family and rose from extreme poverty). I wouldn't be surprised if he did come from poverty too because some traditional sources say the Sun represents what the father passes on to the native, such as their inheritance. When there is no indication of the father being beneficial and the Sun is weak yet is well placed, it can sometimes show the person overcoming poverty to become successful. An example is also Oprah, who has a detrimented Sun in the 2nd trine the MC. Mine rules the 2nd, and here it is in the 10th.
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moonbright



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Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do you mean regarding jumping to conclusions/speaking rashly based on Saturn/Uranus being opp Mercury? I always thought of the influence of Saturn to not act hastily and perhaps be overly cautious, although they can come to the wrong conclusion based on biased information or dogmatic ideas. Maybe you are talking about Uranus?


Yes, in a sense. The first thing I saw was Moon/Jupiter in Aries which can cause rash behaviour and in soft aspect to Mercury/Chiron can cause hurtful words spoken without thinking. But of course Saturn is providing a restraining influence but it in turn is conjunct Uranus. So there's really a push-pull effect, I think. I would guess that the first instinct is to act or speak quickly but then to restrain oneself. But if the Tr. Moon is triggering Uranus then maybe there is sense of "oh, what the hell, go for it" and acting/speaking despite misgivings.

If he's researching there may be a tendency (under that influence) to not be thorough but training oneself in consistent work habits can reduce the risk of overlooking things.
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Last edited by moonbright on Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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moonbright



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Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I meant to ask before but forgot: Does he stutter? The influences that I described above could indicate that, I think.
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gonna keep this thread going for a bit more and post some comments on the chart and what I know of the native.
I will also invite him to address any comments or questions but do note he’s not an astrologer himself.
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TT



Joined: 01 Jun 2018
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Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:
TT wrote:
Met his girl in the UK as venus sets there,and might be a cook or designer,lacks self confidence in the brain department
~edit actually venus is in 8th over the UK it is his Mercury saturn opposition that is activated there. Does he struggle with comunication?

Reminds me of D Trump`s chart Very Happy


Thanks TT

Any chance you could expand on the astrological reasoning for “designer, lacks confidence” etc - I know it can be a pain to articulate but can be very helpful


cook or designer-venus in taurus in 9th of foreign countries and oriental to the Sun. Mercury op Saturn for lack of confidence in brain/comunication department
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TT



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Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding orientality as taught by Ptolemy,I know a tv broadcaster born on 6 june 1974,who has venus in taurus,hence oriental,yet her job is mercurial.Mercury is ahead of the sun gemini,in cancer conjunct Saturn.
She`s German of Iraki parents,never had a problem with ethnic germans..until she became a ZDF presenter.Her colleagues were uncomfortable with her background and she received a lot of hate mail ever since

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunja_Hayali

So,this reminds me of a post by the owner of Spicaastrology.com,who believes the sun has a profound influence on our choice of profession

http://www.spicastrology.com/keep-it-simple-series-the-sun-as-vocation/
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TT - where was her Venus? Often in the 10th if in a day chart and oriental and if not received it can bring public shaming or tarnished reputations, or issues with females at work or in the public. I wouldn't really associate the 9th with an issue, especially in a male's chart. Venus is generally less forceful on manners in males, probably because they have more testosterone and have more Mars energies.

I would say oriental Venus is more of a go-getter in general and less traditional. I would say in Taurus it can be a strength because that is a fairly lazy and decadent place for Venus. I have a sister with Occidental Venus in the 12th and she is one of the laziest people I have ever known and complete comfort lover.
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map



Joined: 23 Nov 2013
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Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:12 am    Post subject: Mystery chart Reply with quote

Computer graphics related work, probably in a govt institute, knows more than one language, prominent teeth, an elderly appearance than his age and overweight. Many of his friends may be foreigners. Teaching career also is not ruled out. father may be close to him. Insisting on discipline may alienate him from others.

Last edited by map on Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:53 am; edited 3 times in total
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Donna Chang



Joined: 24 Feb 2012
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Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Tanit3333"] When someone thinks of their father this way, Saturn is more often aspected by Sun, in my opinion, because the Sun represents the ego in some sense and Saturn is sort of overshadowing it (which we don't see here).

I neglected to mention that I see this in the case of saturn retrograde in the 4th, so the sun isn't necessarily involved.
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Map - I am curious where you are seeing prominent teeth and older appearance? I often wonder about teeth because I have seen a few charts, especially with Saturn influencing the ascendant/ruler or rising, that made me wonder if there are patterns for bad teeth. I have a friend who has Cap rising with Saturn conjunct Mars in Scorpio at the MC, and Jupiter in fall on the ascendant. Her teeth are the first thing you notice when you talk to her- very large, decaying, etc. I always thought it was the emphasis of malefics on an angle influencing her appearance along with a debilitated benefic in the ascendant. Similar patterns seem to show this in a few other charts but nothing definitive. My sister has Cap rising and Saturn in detriment but is beautiful (with nice teeth) because she has dignified Venus in the 1st. I would think Venus trine the ascendant here is similar. I was watching an old movie with Cameron Diaz the other day and her beauty was captivating - my first thought was that I bet she has a nice Venus influencing her Ascendant. She sure does - in the ascendant, mutual reception with the Asc ruler, which is itself exalted. Anyway, I have seen too many beautiful people with Venus influencing appearance. If the ascendant degree is in question, that could change things though.
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map



Joined: 23 Nov 2013
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Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject: Mystery chart Reply with quote

Tanit-Saturn influence on ascendant for older appearance and mercury, the 2nd lord, for teeth issues.
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