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What is the purpose of the astrologer?
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: What is the purpose of the astrologer? Reply with quote

I am a strong believer in fate. I don't totally understand it, but everything I have seen in astrology says that we don't have any choices, it is all mapped out for us, at least between birth and death on this planet. Maybe the choice was made outside of time. And the very word fate comes from the past tense of the French faire to make or to do, meaning, in the words of Jesus on the cross, "it is done", it has been made, it has already happened, the movie has already been made and this life is just a replaying.

Astrologers are limited in that we don't know enough, we can't be absolutely sure that our methods work in certain ways all the time.

What are astrologers actually doing, with our Uranian art, peeking behind the veils of time (Saturn)?


Last edited by Fleur on Fri Nov 23, 2018 7:08 pm; edited 6 times in total
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi fleur,

speaking for myself, astrology has given me a particular perspective that i don't think i would have been able to get any other way.. understanding what i, or a close friend or family member is going thru is one of the many benefits i see to astrology.. also, the timing of events and the cycles of life seem to be captured with a greater understanding of astrology... i think astrology is hard to replicate... i think the purpose of someone who is doing astrology for a livelihood is to help broaden another persons perspective on all of this and to help put life in a proper perspective for them based on these cycles of change..

on a related note - i recall someone giving an interesting description of the past, present and future... they said that the past is in front of us - we can see it and all the various narratives that can be written or used to describe it.. about the future - it is behind us and we are unable to see it... i like this idea... in so far as astrology tries to see what is behind us, i think it can sometimes do this very well in a generalized way..
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Fleur



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
hi fleur,

speaking for myself, astrology has given me a particular perspective that i don't think i would have been able to get any other way.. understanding what i, or a close friend or family member is going thru is one of the many benefits i see to astrology.. also, the timing of events and the cycles of life seem to be captured with a greater understanding of astrology... i think astrology is hard to replicate... i think the purpose of someone who is doing astrology for a livelihood is to help broaden another persons perspective on all of this and to help put life in a proper perspective for them based on these cycles of change..

on a related note - i recall someone giving an interesting description of the past, present and future... they said that the past is in front of us - we can see it and all the various narratives that can be written or used to describe it.. about the future - it is behind us and we are unable to see it... i like this idea... in so far as astrology tries to see what is behind us, i think it can sometimes do this very well in a generalized way..


Reminded me of this,

https://youtu.be/3xwEQLnvuMU
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello - I think this belongs in the philosophical discussion section.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reminded me of this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uPWrAGtB4w

tanit - i think you are correct about that.. maybe paul or whoever can flip the thread over their...
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Fleur



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right, the general astrology isn't a dumping ground. Yes move this thread.
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this question is more so what is the point of astrology? The purpose behind a given astrologer varies - maybe they find it an easy way for them to supplement their income, maybe they believe they help people. Their reasons vary. I believe some people possess the gift of prophecy and astrology is a way for them to reign in that gift. How they use their gift is up to them. Some people use astrology to better understand themselves and/or other people, or for self improvement. I think astrology primarily reminds me that I believe that there is a God and there are many supernatural things I have experienced in my life (but I have Pluto in the 4th and my ascendant ruler is Moon conjunct Neptune, so I have always been a bit of an antenna, whether I want to be or not). As a newer Christian, astrology is a bit at odds with scripture, but at the same time prophecy is a biblical gift and is a way that God makes his presence known. The gift of prophecy has actually been a series of talks at my old church (which I watch online) this month. If you tell someone something they find to be true, they begin to look at how there is something bigger than themselves out there. I often just ramble thoughts and impressions that come to me, and sometimes it has profound impact on people and sometimes not, and that is how those in the church describe their gift too. For some reason, when I just ramble symbolism I see, I tend to make a bigger impact than when I research placements. More often than not, those who seek a reading from me outside of the internet are just looking for their fortune to be read, and so astrology can become another means of entertainment and consumerism. I am sure some astrologers who get paid for it find this frustrating, but others view it as a job and find no difference between that approach and a more philosophical one.
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Location: Switzerland

Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
I think this question is more so what is the point of astrology? The purpose behind a given astrologer varies - maybe they find it an easy way for them to supplement their income, maybe they believe they help people. Their reasons vary. I believe some people possess the gift of prophecy and astrology is a way for them to reign in that gift. How they use their gift is up to them. Some people use astrology to better understand themselves and/or other people, or for self improvement. I think astrology primarily reminds me that I believe that there is a God and there are many supernatural things I have experienced in my life (but I have Pluto in the 4th and my ascendant ruler is Moon conjunct Neptune, so I have always been a bit of an antenna, whether I want to be or not). As a newer Christian, astrology is a bit at odds with scripture, but at the same time prophecy is a biblical gift and is a way that God makes his presence known. The gift of prophecy has actually been a series of talks at my old church (which I watch online) this month. If you tell someone something they find to be true, they begin to look at how there is something bigger than themselves out there. I often just ramble thoughts and impressions that come to me, and sometimes it has profound impact on people and sometimes not, and that is how those in the church describe their gift too. For some reason, when I just ramble symbolism I see, I tend to make a bigger impact than when I research placements. More often than not, those who seek a reading from me outside of the internet are just looking for their fortune to be read, and so astrology can become another means of entertainment and consumerism. I am sure some astrologers who get paid for it find this frustrating, but others view it as a job and find no difference between that approach and a more philosophical one.


If Astrology was really at odds with Scripture, how come the latter has so much astrological symbolism in it?

And this holds true not just for the Bible, but for other exponents of Christianity as well. E.g., astrological iconography can be seen in so many churches.




Basilica of St Denis, Paris




Dormition church of Virgin Mary, Jerusalem




St Mark's basilica, Venice
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael- I agree or else I would not touch astrology. I think, like most things, it can be good based on how you use it. You will hear many Christians call anything related to divination the work of the devil, but it is a powerful means of prophecy. To some Christians, even yoga is considered demonic.

Thank you for sharing the lovely murals.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tanit and michael,

you would enjoy seeing the pictures on this link thread i am sharing...

https://pauls-bologna.blog/2017/11/02/the-meridian-line-of-san-petronio/

""Cassini's Meridian Line
The church hosts also a marking in the form of a meridian line inlaid in the paving of the left aisle in 1655; it was calculated and designed by the astronomer Giovanni Domenico Cassini, who was teaching astronomy at the University. A meridian line does not indicate the time, but instead the day of the year, as well as determining the length of the solar year. At 66.8 metres (219 ft) it is one of the largest astronomical instruments in the world, allowing measurements that were for the time uniquely precise; Cassini and Domenico Guglielmini published an illustrated account of how the meridian was accomplished in 1695.[3]"" from wikipedia..

while we were in bologna, we visited this church... it is indeed as michael notes - the church and christianity were very much into the use of astrology.. it must have been prior to the time christianity devolved into a superstitious religion led by dogma, as opposed to keeping an open mind..

from reading many books on astrology, i do recall the church always accepted a pursuit of mundane or world astrology, but was more opposed to natal astrology... don't ask me to quote the references..

cheers james
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Michael Sternbach



Joined: 01 Mar 2014
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
tanit and michael,

you would enjoy seeing the pictures on this link thread i am sharing...

https://pauls-bologna.blog/2017/11/02/the-meridian-line-of-san-petronio/

""Cassini's Meridian Line
The church hosts also a marking in the form of a meridian line inlaid in the paving of the left aisle in 1655; it was calculated and designed by the astronomer Giovanni Domenico Cassini, who was teaching astronomy at the University. A meridian line does not indicate the time, but instead the day of the year, as well as determining the length of the solar year. At 66.8 metres (219 ft) it is one of the largest astronomical instruments in the world, allowing measurements that were for the time uniquely precise; Cassini and Domenico Guglielmini published an illustrated account of how the meridian was accomplished in 1695.[3]"" from wikipedia..

while we were in bologna, we visited this church... it is indeed as michael notes - the church and christianity were very much into the use of astrology.. it must have been prior to the time christianity devolved into a superstitious religion led by dogma, as opposed to keeping an open mind..


This is indeed pretty cool! Thanks for sharing. I will have to go there and take a look at this myself the next time I will be in Italy.

Quote:
from reading many books on astrology, i do recall the church always accepted a pursuit of mundane or world astrology, but was more opposed to natal astrology... don't ask me to quote the references..

cheers james


James, would you PLEASE quote those references?

Just kidding... Razz

Here's one for you:

https://www.fisheaters.com/aquinasastrology.html

Thomas Aquinas in particular really pondered on questions of how Astrology relates to free will and - whether we accept his conclusions as valid or not - provided us with food for thought on topics that should still concern us modern astrologers... Happy to discuss this further, if anybody is interested!
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Fleur



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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just had a look at Michael's Thomas Aquinas link. Interesting but I find the language he uses daunting, and I need a Thomas Aquinas for Dummies version in clear English.

It is an important issue for me. We are so used to the new age self help gurus saying that we have free will, but sorry I just don't accept that, something else entirely is at play. I have noticed new age astrologers are so confident of their one size fits all diagnoses that they mostly don't even bother to look at the actual birth chart, they don't see it as important as they believe people can change it anyway, which I think is rubbish.
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Paul
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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to reply properly to Fleur's initial post, but Thomas Aquinas's views are interesting for astrologers. To summarise it, and I haven't read Michael's link yet, but the celestial influences were imagined as physical influences in the sense that they were imagined as being something akin to radiation. But, importantly, for Thomas Aquinas, these influences could only affect the physical or grosser bodies. The soul, and basically the mind in general, was free of astrological influence. In this way things could be fated (they may affect the body), but the individual still have free will (the mind/soul existed outside of the realm of celestial influence).

So in this manner Thomas Aquinas put forth a theory (inspired by Albert Magnus), that the soul was not affected by astrological influences of any kind, and the individual had free will as a result - compare that to the modern psychological approach to astrology. In that approach free will remains at the heart of matters, and, yet, the relationship is put upside down. In that way of thinking the celestial influences, or, rather correspondances, only occur in the mental/psychological realm, and the physical world is free of such influences.
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Fleur



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Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, thanks for that explanation.

I am still not really clear, but I wonder if that is the same as the idea put forth in the book "The Jacket" by Jack London? He begins the novel with the protagonist introducing himself as Darrrell Standing, who is a murderer imprisoned in a hell hole prison being tortured with no way out, and who goes back into many past lives and draws the conclusion that we are not who we seem to be in this one life, but we have many lives.

I can accept that. There was no way he could change anything in this life, it was all completely fated, but his soul was more than the one life.

Astrologically, I think what happens is that our birth charts and the planets absolutely show what happens to us in this lifetime, and somewhere in the birth chart there is probably a way to see how we connect with other lifetimes, but I don't know how to read that, maybe I will find out one day.

Obviously, we are eternal souls experiencing one time bound, Saturn-bound lifetime. Astrology is ruled by Uranus which has insight into that which is beyond time.

We can tap into something beyond time, as did the protagonist of "The Jacket". This is what astrologers do. But we can't alter what happens in this lifetime. I am now wondering about the fairy tale where the fairy says she can't alter the curse but the princess won't die but will sleep for a hundred years.....
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can accept neither Thomas Aquinas's alleged psychological freedom from astrological influences nor Fleur's fatalism regarding them, although I recognize some truth in both. My own position falls somewhere on the middle ground.

Having been involved with astrology for some 25 years, I am indeed impressed how accurate it is - not only in regards to character but also to external events. Although some of the correlations with the latter admittedly become obvious only after the event.

My presently best answer to the question of determinism vs free will from an astrological perspective would be that we can't choose the basic energies we are dealing with at a given time, but, to one degree or another, we can choose how we want to express and experience those energies in our life. And that's where, from my perspective, Thomas Aquinas's freedom of will comes into play.

However, the notion that the astrological influences would only affect the outer but not the inner levels makes little sense to me. Because in my view, the external and physical tends to reflect the internal and psychological.
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