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Is the kid his own son?
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 95

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:32 pm    Post subject: Is the kid his own son? Reply with quote

Exactly when Venus turned retrograde, I met an ex who I dated almost 10 yrs ago. We had an amicable break up, so it wasn't hard for us to start a conversation and spend sometime together.

We met up a couple of times after the first meeting and I realized I have fallen hard for him..again. However, this time we are not dating, although he kind of suggested we get back together. I have many reasons for that, and I don't want to discuss all that in this post. I will try to keep this post short.

There is a kid with him, always. Almost 7 years old. He said the kid is his friends. I know children love him and he loves children so I didn't suspect the kid could be his, the first few time I saw him. But lately I have been wondering whether the kid is his own. He has no reasons to lie to me, but something tells me the kid must be his own.

Even if that is his own kid, it shouldn't bother me because we aren't dating. And even if we were dating, it still shouldn't bother me. But it is bothering me and I have reasons, I can explain, just not in this post.

In this post I want to stick to interpreting the chart.

So here's the chart:





QUESTION: Is that his own son? Where is the mother?


Virgo rising. Ruler Mercury is in tight conjunction with Jupiter(him). Neptune on the descendant.
If Mercury is me, then I don't know why it's in tight conjunction with Jupiter. We are not dating.

Neptune on the descendant suggests, he is hiding something.
He has Mars in his house. Mars rules turned 9th and turned 2nd.

His 5th house is ruled by Moon which is in Gemini.
If Moon is the kid, Moon has recently opposed Jupiter. Contact b/w his ruler and the ruler of his own 5th should indicate that is his own son, right?
Also Moon translated light from Mercury to Jupiter by opposition. And Mercury and Jupiter are in tight conjunction anyway. Could Mercury be the mother of the kid? So he is not single? He said he is single.

Mercury is the natural ruler of children, so if I take Mercury as the kid. Then Jupiter is him, and it makes sense that they are both together in the chart. The kid is with him 24/7. Does that suggest it is his own kid?

If the kid is Moon, Mercury the mother and Jupiter him, then what/who is Mars? If the kid is Mercury, Jupiter him, then could Mars be the mother of that kid?

If Mercury is me, Jupiter him, Mars the kid then do you think Venus is the kids mother? Venus is exact trine descendant.

If I am Moon, Jupiter him and Mars is his co-significator. Mars is in Venus' exaltation sign and Venus is in Mars rulership. Jupiter his main ruler is conjunct Mercury the son. They are family.

I am confused.

Overall does the chart show that the kid is his own? Because that's the main question.


Last edited by Jupiterrising on Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:22 am; edited 10 times in total
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 897

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could look at this similar to the rumor questions - is your rumor true, basically. I think the answer is that he is not the father and the truth is already known and public regarding the child's paternity. In Gemini it could be the kid is one of 2 children. The Moon is natural ruler of birth children and ruling his 5th but it is also on the MC and in a sign of foreign land to Jupiter. Luminaries in the 10th (especially the luminary of sect - here Moon) often suggest the truth is public and does not suggest deceit (unless say the quesited was combust Sun in the 10th, in which case it could show deceit that is made public). Similar to the other rumor type of question we saw recently, the querent is ill dignified whereas quesited is dignified, suggesting the error is on the querent. The application of the Moon to Mars in the 7th might show more information that comes forward, perhaps. Moon is translating the light of Mercury in an opp to Mars square. This is a T square, which is a difficult influence and might suggest an emotionally difficult verbal encounter, although Mars does very well in Pisces and is generally more gentle, especially in a night chart. However, it is also with Markab, a malevolent fixed star, which to me would suggest some need for caution with this person. Mars with Markab could suggest this person is unstable, for whatever reason (not necessarily violent, but something a bit alarming).

Lilly would say the Mercury-Mars square suggests prejudism by the querent and the influence of Mercury in this chart in general follows the typical signification in rumor horaries of a false rumor. The influence of Mercury and Mars together in the 7th with the Moon bringing them together especially suggests querent error to me. If the Moon were applying to a benefic then I might think the rumor is true. I could be wrong but that is how I would interpret it.

I am not convinced Mercury is a good significator to use for the child. The Moon often volunteers itself when a chart becomes hazy on significators and it makes the most sense when looking at the chart. Regarding Mercury ruling young people, you could just as easily say the radical 5th is the house that relates to children and young people in general, and I would think that makes more sense than even Mercury. To me, in a natal chart, beyond the 5th, the Moon is most commonly influential in children indicators and horary is not much different. The fact that his 5th ruler is Moon in a barren sign might also be an indication that he has no children.

Neptune in his house is trine a detrimented Venus. That might speak more so about your difficult relationship than deceit, but it could relate to the mother somehow, I suppose, especially if they are romantically linked. Venus is not linked to Moon or Mercury if you use your significator. Neptune is also square the querent and the Moon, perhaps because you feel confused and that he is hiding something from you. He is represented in a fairly romantic way and is perhaps a lofty idealist and maybe flakey, possibly a substance abuser, such as alcohol. I do not know why Neptune is in his house and that the information feels hidden from you, but the future aspects might suggest that more information may come that answers your questions.

The only way to really know is for him or someone else who knows to somehow tell you, unfortunately. Whatever the horary says will not replace the act of finding out the information.
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 95

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit. Thank you very much for the reading.

I had tried the "Is the rumor true" method, but with a different chart. This question has been bothering me for a while, so I had tried to check with horary before, and because I was unsure whether I should look at aspect between his 5th house ruler and his own significator for confirmation, I had considered using the "is the rumor true" method.
And so I specifically asked "Is the rumor true that the kid is his own son" and cast a chart just 2-3 days back. I can post it here, if you don't mind taking a look at that chart.

You mentioned about Markab with Mars, so I looked up Markab, it's associated with Horses. This guy is an equestrian, he owns several horses. He has a very gentle disposition, but at the same time is very very controlling.

I cannot ask him to prove with a paternity test because a) we are not dating and b) even if we were dating I cannot ask until he commits to me.

He said the the kid is his friends. Actually the friend is an employee. He is my love interest's assistant for a long time now. He's not just an assistant he does a lot of other things too, mostly related to horse racing. The friend is married and has 3 children, this kid is the oldest. I have met all three of them and also the friends wife.

This friend has a sister, who is single. She was interested in my love interest even when we were dating. I don't know if he dated her after we broke up, and if he did date her, I am not sure whether he is still with her.
My suspicion was that the kid could be her son, and for some reason he is hiding the fact and saying the son is the friends.
Could Venus be the friends sister?

He is not into substance abuse. Not an alcoholic.

Should I post the the other chart I casted with the question "Is the rumor true" just a few days back?
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 897

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you asked a previous chart with the same subject matter, then it is better to go off of the first chart.

That is interesting he works with horses since I often hear about that with Markab but never see examples. I have a close second Pisces malefic fixed star on my MC - Scheat, and I rarely hear anything positive about them both, but it is nice when they sometimes are not so doom and gloom. I normally assume my Scheat shows a love of intellectual pursuits and original ways of thinking. I was considering purchasing a car this week until I realized Mercury is square Mars and Mars is between these two malefic fixed stars, though. Sick
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 95

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit.

Here's the chart for the question:
"Is the rumor true that the kid is his own son"



There is no rumor really. Nobody is talking about them, and nobody seems to care other than me. But that's how I formed the question in my head just to make chart reading easy for myself.


In this chart:

Al angles are in fixed sign: Rumor is true

Ruler of the ascendant is Mars in angular 4th house but on the dark side.
Mars is in mutable sign, separating conjunction from Nepune. Sun is also separating a square from Mars and Venus is applying trine to Mars which will not perfect.
Mars angular in aspect with benefics: Rumor true


Moon is in taurus, a fixed sign. Moon is cadent, applying trine to Saturn.
Since Moon is not angular or succedent and is not applying to benefic: Rumor is false.

The dispositor of Moon is Venus. Venus is cadent and is next applying trine to Neptune, sextile to Pluto and trine to Mars. Since Venus is not applying to benefics: Rumor is false.

If the rumor is bad but the benefics rule the ascedant or if a benefic is in the first house then the rumor is false. Here Jupiter is in the first house but the rumor isn't really bad. So I am not sure if I should use this rule.

If Mercury or Moon is afflicted and do not cast favorable aspect to the ascendant then the rumor is false. Mercury in my chart is in detriment but not afflicted. It's applying to Jupiter. It doesn't cast any aspect to the ascendant. Moon in taurus is also dignified but is aspecting Saturn and does not apply to ascendant by favorable aspect. This is a mixed testimony and I don't think I can use this either.

Overall the chart shows more of "rumor is true" testimonies, in my opinion.


Last edited by Jupiterrising on Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 897

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the rumor type of chart can apply to any case where you are asking about truth involving another person. I do think the original chart would support that he is the father.

Lilly did sometimes give the 1st to the quesited if it matched the person, and you mentioned Markab fitting him (I use 5 degree orbs for fixed stars but some people use 1) so I do wonder about flipping this chart, though, in which case it would be similar to the second chart. I normally do not do that but I have seen it done before and it does seem odd how gender roles are reversed.

I hope either way that you get an answer. I am sorry the charts are conflicting. They are complete opposites of each other but they were also formed in different ways.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 209

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
I am sorry the charts are conflicting. They are complete opposites of each other but they were also formed in different ways.


I was wondering why the charts are so conflicting? Dont we usually get the same answer even if we ask more than once. I have usually seen this. If not this then either a very late or early rising. But here the case is different. Can it be related to how JupiterRising worded the query?

It is a good point Tanit mentions that upon flipping the two charts become somewhat similar. But how would we explain flipping one chart and not the other? Again something rgearding the wording the query or the state of mind of the querent i guess?

Jupiterrising were you in similar state of mind in asking these questions? Were you personally emotionally involved both the times when you asked? Or were you putting yourself out of the picture and asking?
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 897

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the reasons astrologers advise not to repeat questions or ask questions about the same manner is because it is fairly common to get conflicting answers.

I never really understood why sometimes charts have needed to be flipped but I personally do not like doing it and I remember Deb saying she didn't like to either. Lilly was big on significators needing to describe the person, which I believe was the primary reason to sometimes turn a chart for a given subject. It kind of reminds me of tarot, how you might give a reading and it gives a garbled answer, so you do unconventional things to make more sense of it, like add more cards. Personally, if a chart doesn't make a lot of sense to me then I discard it entirely and don't try to force it to make sense. Jupiterrising probably knows better than I do if the significators in the original chart describe her and the man well or not.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 209

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
One of the reasons astrologers advise not to repeat questions or ask questions about the same manner is because it is fairly common to get conflicting answers

Oh ok..Didn't know that! Had only heard people say that no matter how many charts are made they will all sow a similar answer but keep on getting hazier and more confusing when asked multiple times.

Quote:
Lilly was big on significators needing to describe the person, which I believe was the primary reason to sometimes turn a chart for a given subject.


Facinating tidbit about Lily 's reason for turning the charts! Thanks for sharing Tanit
But yes horary is so complex already it would make sense to keep it simple and not turn the chart like Deb and you prefer!


Last edited by Serene on Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 95

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
I think the rumor type of chart can apply to any case where you are asking about truth involving another person. I do think the original chart would support that he is the father.

Lilly did sometimes give the 1st to the quesited if it matched the person, and you mentioned Markab fitting him (I use 5 degree orbs for fixed stars but some people use 1) so I do wonder about flipping this chart, though, in which case it would be similar to the second chart. I normally do not do that but I have seen it done before and it does seem odd how gender roles are reversed.

I hope either way that you get an answer. I am sorry the charts are conflicting. They are complete opposites of each other but they were also formed in different ways.


If we flipped the chart, are we using the "is the rumor true" method to interpret or are you interpreting this as a regular horary question?

If we read this chart without flipping or with flipping, which planet describes the mother of the kid?

Venus in Scorpio cannot be me, if we are picking significators based on which planet fits whom. Venus in scorpio better describes the the friends sister (the woman I am suspecting to be the mother).

He could be Mars in Pisces, simply because of it's association with Markab as you say and also because of his personality, eventhough he plays other high adrenaline sports other than horse riding. Natally he has Mars in Capricorn.

Moon in Taurus better describes me, I think. I am skinny and petite. Not sexy like Venus in Scorpio.

Edited to add: I looked up the description of Taurus woman, it doesn't describe me. So I don't know..which planet describes me in this chart. Definitely not Venus in Scorpio though.


Last edited by Jupiterrising on Sun Dec 23, 2018 5:56 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serene wrote:

Jupiterrising were you in similar state of mind in asking these questions? Were you personally emotionally involved both the times when you asked? Or were you putting yourself out of the picture and asking?


Out of curiosity, what difference does it make to the chart if I took myself out of the picture? Or do you mean that for a question like is the rumor true, we take ourself out of the situation?
Maybe for that question I specifically asked that way without involving myself. I honestly don't know.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had you not been personally attached and emotionally involved the first time you asked this question then perhaps he can be taken as the ruler of the 1st house and we can just look at the chart without you the the picture to simplify the matter. I am also saying this because Tanit aid flipping the first chart makes it similar to the 2nd chart
I personally feel one's frame of mind and intentions and involvement can change the way a chart is delineated. But I may be wrong . But one thing i would definitely stick to the very first chart you made unless it was found to be not radical.
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 95

Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I first got into astrology, I met someone in a forum(Astrodienst, I think)who said he was John Frawley's student. He told me that Frawley said that we can ask the same question over and over, and just like we dissect a worm, we get the same answer with every chart. Not the exact same wording but something along those lines.

I have asked the question multiple times, but never bothered to save the chart or read it. The second chart I have posted here is the first one I saved and tried to interpret. I had made charts before but didn't look into the details.
I specifically worded it as "is the rumor true" simply because I thought interpreting it that way would be much easier. I think did take myself out of the picture for that particular chart and also the first chart I posted in this thread. Because I am specifically asking about him and that kid, I am not asking about his feelings for me or the potential for a relationship between us. So I guess we can say I have removed myself from the situation in both the charts.

But if we did flip the chart, it still shows the rumor is true. Angles fixed, Moon in fixed sign, etc.


Last edited by Jupiterrising on Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jupiterrising



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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deleted Flipped chart.

Last edited by Jupiterrising on Tue Dec 25, 2018 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
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Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
I think the rumor type of chart can apply to any case where you are asking about truth involving another person. I do think the original chart would support that he is the father.


Tanit, if he IS the father, then can this chart show whether he is with the mother of that kid or is he single?

He said he is single. But he also said the kid is his friends so.. he could have lied about the relationship status too.
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