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Significators in Relational horaries
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 206

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:38 pm    Post subject: Significators in Relational horaries Reply with quote

Greetings everyone

I have wondered about this a few times in the past while dealing with relational horaries involving more than 2 people. My question is regarding assigning significators to all the parties involved. Suppose we have three people A, B and C. A is the querent. All the three people are related to each other. Lets say A and B are very close to each other and so are B and C (im not necessarily talking of a romance horary) . A and C are also related but their relation isnt a close one. So when assigning significators, how should we decide the significator of C? Suppose A and B are romantic partners . And C is B's close friend but A's neighbour. Do we assign the radical 3rd lord to C? Or the turned 11th from 7th?


Looking forward to your valued insights as always
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Serene - It depends on a given scenario. In your question, you have a querent, romantic partner and neighbor. The neighbor's relationship to the romantic partner is not important for assigning significators since they are related to the querent and the querent is the focal point of the chart. I would give the querent 1st, romantic interest 7th and neighbor 3rd.

I have seen horaries like that where, say, someone is interested romantically in someone (7th) but they wonder if that person is more interested in their friend (11th). I remember a very good example (I did not save the chart) where a romantic interest was interested in a friend and he was the 7th ruler in the 11th in reception with the 11th ruler and they ended up getting married. In that case, the friend was good friends with the romantic interest for a long time but the chart did not need to be turned from the 11th from the 7th (hopefully that makes sense).

It becomes more convoluted if you are asking about a romantic partner's romantic interests without the third party being related to you, but in that case Lilly has a section in Christian Astrology that can be useful for general aphorisms on whether a romantic partner is with someone (or interested in them) or not. The most common signification I see for a male quesited is a feminine planet in the 7th or the 7th ruler combust or combusting a planet (suggesting a hidden relationship the querent is unaware of but the truth will eventually be revealed).

You could potentially ask about a quesited's friend if they are entirely unrelated to the querent, but I generally view a chart as the querent being the focal point and that works most of the time. If for some reason a chart showed contrary to this, such as emphasizing the 5th ruler rather than 3rd, meaning the turned 11th, then I would take that into consideration. As always, trying to see if the planetary significations describe the people involved helps a lot.

One thing Wade Caves taught me a few years ago is to pay close attention to planets on angles as potential important significators, especially if they aspect significators. They have a lot of power in a chart and can step forward regardless of house rulership.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 206

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit thanks a lot. As usual your answer is comprehensive, insightful and lucid. So i understand that you would give more importance to the querent and make him the focal point of the chart usually but it would also depend to some extent on the question itself and what the chart is emphasizing.

Would your answer be the same if the querent hardly talked to the neighbour in this example?

Okay here are some other scenarios-

1. Querent, querent's boss and boss' wife who is a friend of the querent
2. Querent, querent's partner and partner's friend who is also a friendly acquaintance of the querent

The first scenario is devoid of any romantic interests but in the second the querent is wondering if something is up between her bf and his friend.

PS -- point 2 edited and rectified
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I would wonder is how necessary this would be to begin with. If it is a question of "who done it?" Or "who is he/she romantically interested in?" is it really necessary to assign a bunch of significators rather than let the chart do the talking, such as who the quesited is aspecting and how that planet is signified? In most cases, I don't think you need to assign a ton of significators, but I guess it would depend on the question.

If you are asking about a boss and their wife in general (their feelings/attitudes, etc.) then their wife might not be someone associated with you beyond basic acquaintance and you could assign them as the turned 7th (4th house), if necessary. If it is a question where you are trying to resolve whether the boss or boss's wife did you wrong, I primary would look at the 7th house signification to see if someone did me wrong and who are they based on planetary description (or possibly the 12th might present itself as an unknown party). If the boss did me wrong and they were male, I might see the 10th ruler in the 7th or 7th ruler in the 10th and a male planet describing them. For the boss's wife, they could be a feminine planet that describes them and maybe the 4th ruler in the 7th or 7th ruler in the 4th (but possibly even the 10th, since they are of the boss - the boss's wife). If the 7th is afflictive and describes the person/people, then that would be easier to understand than turning the chart a bunch of times to assign a bunch of people to a given scenario of "who done it." Lilly generally did not use a ton of significators he just looked at the big picture and that is what I try to do.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 206

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again Tanit. Very insightful. So you let the chart speak for itself following the example set by Lilly when the situation involves a bunch of people. Letting the chart speak for itself is one thing I have learnt from you here and I have seen it really works well rather than going into the chart with a fixed mindset. Right now the question I had in mind related to how my partner's female friend felt about me and if she is jealous or inimical secretively. She is close to my partner and I suspect she likes him romantically but she is just a friendly acquaintance to me. I haven't asked the question yet as I wanted to first decide my approach to the chart. I have seen in case of other people I can read charts well by keeping an open-minded approach and letting the chart tell the story but when it comes to my own chart I'm left somewhat stumped and unsure due to personal bias and that's why iam always wanting to decide in advance what houses to look at. Do you face such problems with your own charts? Or are you able to go with Lilly's open approach objectively? Any tips , pointers ? Thanks again Smile Thumbs up
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally do have significators in mind before I ask a question, but I do not hold fast to that if the chart indicates other significations, and I have seen Wade Caves do that too for charts he has read for me. For example, I asked about a 7th house person, but Jupiter in Leo was on the MC trine my significator (Mars in Sag) and described the person physically, and so he used that planet to describe the person and the chart made much more sense than the 7th ruler. The person had Jupiter in Sag in natal as their strongest planet too, which Wade didn't know but I found perceptive how he narrowed in on that planet.

One thing I would say in a chart where you are asking about the motive of someone else in general (similar to the "is the rumor true" question type) is to also look at your own signification to see if you might be in error. If your planet is malefic or especially ill dignified (or malefics are in the 1st), that can be a signification that you are in the wrong in some way. In other words, the other party might not be in the wrong (or maybe both parties can be, depending upon the circumstances). I always check my own signification (or the querent's) when I ask such a question to see if I or they might be making incorrect assumptions. I am often represented as Saturn when I am in error or made an error (such as in my work), for example, and Lilly sometimes refers to it regarding errors, such as in missing item horaries where he says the object separating from Saturn can show losing something due to forgetfulness. It is often a red flag to proceed with caution regarding your own behavior. Mars can also show jumping to incorrect conclusions sometimes, but my experience is more so Saturn is emphasized.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 206

Posted: Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Tanit
Awesome insights! I will post my chart when I have the access to a pc. Right now I'm on my phone and it's a little difficult from here.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 206

Posted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so here is the chart


Question : Is there any affair going on behind my back? Is he honest?

Back story- I suspect my partner of having an affair with his best friend. When I told him how I felt he was angry in turn and ever since hasn't been speaking to me properly. He says it's just my imagination.Our relationship is not yet official so his friend doesn't know about us although I guess she should be able to sense it. She is just a friendly acquaintance for me.

Him : Sun
Her: Jupiter
Me : Saturn

Here is my own reading -----

Arguments in favour of an affair-
1. Sun at the cusp of turned 12th so hiding something but it may not be an affair. There are things he keeps to himself as he is a very private person and I respect that.
2. Sun exalting Jupiter and Jupiter in Sun's triplicity.
3. Sun opposing Jupiter by antiscia something hidden is on.
4. Sun in detriment of Saturn although it may just be showing his recent feelings for me after I asked him about this.
5. Presence of Mercury and Mars on the cusp of the 7th may show he is involved elsewhere but then I am confused about this as it may also show that there are others who are interested in him and not vice versa. He is very attractive with girls falling for him all the time.
6. Jupiter applying to Neptune shows some some of deceit or delusion on her part
7. Jupiter in the turned 5th but then that happens to be her 1st and it may just be showing that she is a bit self obsessed which she is.

Arguments against an affair-
1. No direct relationship between the Sun and Jupiter
2. Saturn conjunction south node showing I'm wrong and with Pluto making the matters worse. But can this show how I handled the whole situation?
3. Sun in Cancer in dignities of the moon showing he loves me and respects my feelings . Therefore he won't cheat.
4. No afflictions on Venus showing he was honest with his words.
5. Him as Sun may show him as honest but it may also show him as a sexual being in light of the question.

I am curious to know what others think of this chart as being my own charts there's always a bias that seeps in. Thanks for reading.

----
I'm unable to edit my last post for some reason. Just wished to add this point against the possibility of an affair that Saturn is itself in detriment of Moon meaning I am myself my own enemy and my obsessive (Pluto conjunct) and malefic (south node conjunct) significator is opposing my heart (my moon in Cancer)

In conclusion and looking at my own significator as Tanit had suggested I would say I am somehow wrong here and there may be 'something' between them but he is not at fault.

One interesting question that comes to mind is about how antiscia operates by reception? I remember reading about it. That we should look bat the antiscia to know where the actual interest falls and what operates beneath the surface. For example here his significator, Sun exalts her Jupiter in Cancer but the antiscia of Sun falls in Gemini which is the detriment of Jupiter. Can this possibly mean that while outwardly he shows that he really likes her inwardly she isn't as dear to him? I think that is also possible considering the whole dynamics

I'm certainly not going to break up with him on the basis of this horary but yes, I needed a reality check so that I stop expecting much and make myself less vulnerable to protect myself from any heartbreaks in future .

Sorry for yet another post. I am on the phone and unable to edit my previous ones due to some error

Now looking at her as his turned 11th . She is now Mercury. This too makes sense perhaps more than the previous allocation. Mercury right on his ascendant at the cusp of 7th shows her acute interest in him. By receptions there seema to be no interest from his side though. And no aspects between them as well. But definitely something from her side I would say


Ps - now my posts have started looking like spam on this thread. Sick
Not posting anymore before someone else responds now Very Happy
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 827

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Serene - I edited your post above. I have the same issue frequently where I get an error that says I cannot edit my own posts. I usually try logging out and back in and/or clearing my browser history and it works. Mercury is stationary retrograde currently, so computer systems in general are not optimal.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 827

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would stick with some of the primary concepts of the chart type.
Lilly/Bonatti would say to first analyze what the Moon and Lord of the 7th is joined to and if both separate from the querent, the quesited is not cheating. I think, in my opinion, this is the primary thing to look at in this question type and this generally answers the question well in most cases. If the 7th ruler is with the NN, Lilly also says the person is "blameless." Moon is separating from querent. 7th ruler is only applying to querent. The lack of essential dignities and reception on his part is not fantastic though and the opposition is obviously showing your disagreement and his unhappiness (opp Saturn) over the situation. You mentioned he retreated and that is such a typical Sun in Cancer significator thing to do. They are known for hiding away until their hurt feelings are better. They are not good with confrontation and often deal with overwhelming feelings that they need to deal with for a while after an argument. Typically, you would want to give them space but also show gentleness, kindness and respect and hope that they come back out of their shell again.

However, my biggest issue is what they say regarding the 7th ruler or Moon applying to Mars, with Moon here applying out of sign to Mars, within orb of influence. Mars is the planet they tend to mention first as a red flag for a lover. Luckily, it is cadent too though, so not very forceful. They would say it can show a lover, basically, but the fact that it is out of sign and cadent is up for debate - it might just point to some more future disagreements between you to watch out for. The Moon has to apply out of sign to Mars and typically they refer to past aspects as an affair that occurred or is occurring, so this would more so point towards future potential issues, if anything, especially with the out of sign aspect (IMO). Lilly and Bonatti do not use the Moon as a significator for the querent in cheating charts so much as to look at what the quesited is up to (as the matter of the chart itself).

Both Lilly and Bonatti would want the 7th ruler to be able to represent the 7th house well and a cadent planet is not great at that (it does not behold its own house). We could maybe also look to the triplicity ruler, Jupiter, which is in domicile in the 11th, but Jupiter is also not interacting with anyone.

In my opinion, regarding your boyfriend, he does not appear to be cheating. The question is does his friend want him to cheat with her? I would agree she is Mercury, but check that her physical description makes sense. Mercury is slowing down to retro and join with Mars a bit, which is rather suspect for me, and the fact that she is in his domicile. She does not appear to be trustworthy. His own significator is not interacting with Mars or Mercury though. The question is more so the movement of the Moon, but it is not even in Leo right now. Mercury being angular but stationing to retro and with Mars, which is already possibly problematic, is probably not fantastic but I would be careful of what its signification is here. It could be a warning about the communication in your relationship and over this friend.

I think the chart is pointing more so towards needless worry over his motives but you might be right to not trust the friend given the emphasis of the turned 11th ruler in the 7th and afflicted. When I cautioned you earlier about signs of Saturn rising, this type of chart is what I typically see in cases where I am under the wrong thought process and a night chart with Saturn lording it in the 12th suggests excessively dark thoughts that are likely not based entirely on reality or are exaggerating the situation (especially with Pluto).

Regarding antiscia aspects, I tend to only look at them with a tight orb.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 206

Posted: Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow this is a brilliant analysis Tanit - detailed and lucid as usual with great insights- thank you so much for taking a look ❤️

And thank you too so much for taking trouble to edit my post, that is so kind of you. Im relieved to know that im not the only one facing this issue. I generally do what you advised about logging in and out but yesterday that too was throwing up more blocks than usual. Yes it must be that stationed retro Mercury Sick Very Happy

You bring up many good points throughout like the additional significations of Mars and Mercury with respect to the horary. I have seen not many people do that and they just jump to fixed assumptions and conclusions without considering the other possibilities.
I do not use the old school traditional method so i appreciate your reading very much. I have tried to read and understand Lilly several times but his words are so hard to understand that i give up. One thing i wasnt aware of is that Moon in such charts is used to show the events and possibilities rather than as a side significator of the querent.
Physically , she is a good looker , tall but not slender (as you would want Mercury to be) with sly eyes and witty speech. To me she looks much more like a Gemini than a Sag or Pisces so i would prefer to go with Mercury rather than Jupiter. Also she is much younger than both of us so Mercury is apt.

In my previous horaries she always comes up as Mars or so i believe and i may be wrong. I feel you are right about the dark thoughts with an afflicted Saturn rising in a night chart.
I remember that very first chart i had made asking about their relationship. They were both in town for some work (his PHd) and staying together at his apartment. This was a long back and i remember in that horary he was Jupiter joined to Mars and in the dignities of Mars. However in that horary too there was an applying but not separating aspect. I may put it up here if i find it.

I find it interesting that she showed up as his turned 11th and not my 11th. It may be because i never considered her a friend. My definition of friendship is rather strict and reserved only for a few close people in my life . Others i generally like to see as the 7th house only.

Thank you once again. You made my day!


Last edited by Serene on Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Serene



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Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So this is the very first chart i had made asking if there is an affair between the two. That was the first time i met her also. I see he is Jupiter in dignities of Mars and applying to Mars oops

I also see the moon prohibiting this aspect. I used to believe that moon is my co sig here but then you said moon in such charts is primarily used to show events so now i dont know what to think of it. Does moon reinforce the possibility of an affair? Or does it work as a prohibition? Sun (his co sig, representing him as a sexual being) is conjunct Venus and by antiscia on my sig Mercury.

This chart never did help me much because Mars is the lord of his turned 9th and both of them had travelled to my town for Phd work.Could it be that this bodily conjunction of Mars and Jupiter was showing them travelling together and staying together in his apartment?

But then if the bodily conjunctions can have multiple significations then how can we ever be sure ?

Thanks again Tanit, i appreciate all your objective insights.

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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this type of horary, again, the Moon does not necessarily represent the querent but is observed by what it aspects to represent the quesited's behavior, so I would not assume there is prohibition. You would want to see the Moon with the querent, not Mars. However, if you asked the question with this frame of reference, it is possible the chart is showing that for you to interpret that way (the Moon as your significator), meaning that the Moon could potentially representing you stopping them from having an affair. I personally believe a horary is framed for the astrologer to read and interpret so it is ultimately your choice of what significators to use and how to interpret it. if I use Lilly/Bonatti's method in this chart, it is the exact opposite of the first chart, basically. Both the Moon and the quesited with Mars is a sign of cheating. This is the problem with repeat questions and charts you feel confused about and cannot interpret. Also, Wade Caves told me that Mars-Jupiter aspects in relationship horaries is a strong sign of a sexual attraction. A conjunction, I would assume, is significantly stronger in that regard and could show a physical relationship. It would suggest that she would be an initiator.

If these charts leave you feeling unresolved about the matter, I would drop them both and not try to interpret either one of them. Horary is meant to help you, not make you more confused with contradictory answers. I hope that your partner is honest with you either way and that you can be able to trust him.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 206

Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit thanks for looking again. Appreciate a lot. ❤

I dont blindly rely on horary for serious matters of life yet it helps me keep my eyes open to reality. This horary is more than 2 years old, so perhaps things have changed by now and he is no longer interested but she is?

Interesting that you believe horaries are framed for the astrologer interpreting them. I have often wondered about this especially because receptions became so radically different after people started using Frawley

I was actually expecting the response you gave so it is not totally surprising. In my own horaries when two planets are applying by conjunction with reception like this , i have seen prohibition does not save the chart. I am very big on honesty in a relationship with my Venus in Sagittarius and it is not the sharing of love or physical intimacy that would hurt so much as much as lies

Tanit just one thing i wished to confirm, do you think the turned 9th house signification can have anything to do here? Mars being his turned 9th lord and the fact that he was travelling for higher educational purposes or their staying together at his apartment - can the Jupiter Mars conjunction show that?


Edited to add
By the way, i noticed now my actual wording of the question for this last chart- "Does he have any physical relationship with her". So your reference to Jup- Mars conjunction wrt sexual attraction and Wade's comment seems relevant.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The significators conjunct in that chart are cadent though, so it could be via feelings rather than action, perhaps. Normally I attribute cadent houses to inaction or perhaps delayed action. It could be as you said where it represents something down the road, especially since the second chart shows an out of sign aspect with Mars that would align with that. It is possible that the strong Cancer Moon prohibits the conjunction in the first chart but it does still suggest a strong attraction, as you said. It would be odd for the chart that shows the opp between you to be incorrect considering it represents well the argument you had and his response to you confronting him. It seems like a rooted chart.
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