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Will she be deported?
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:23 am    Post subject: Will she be deported? Reply with quote

Question is asked about a young girl who I knew as my tenant, but later became a friend. She married a man who rented my basement apartment, and moved from Morocco at the age of 21 to be his wife in the USA. They applied for her immigration, but before it could come through, he divorced her and withdrew the application for her immigration.
However, she found another guy who lived in America, and moved in with him, and re-applied. Unfortunately, Immigration just sent her a letter indicating that she needs to provide more proof that she actually shared a life with her husband and did not marry him just to get a green card to live in this country. She has no further proof, because she did not drive, did not work, did not share any assets with him, did not have any utility bills in her name, and rent was paid in cash. She claims there is one silver lining in this, which is that her current boyfriend who is a US citizen will marry her if immigration rejects her application, and she could still stay in this country. But I personally find him suspect, because I think he would have married her by now if his intentions were sincere, this application has been in process for almost 2 years now! She was devastated enough when her husband divorced her. If she is deported after finding new love in this country, she will be beyond devastated! And with Immigration front and center in this country right now, I think the future seems quite bleak!

I asked the question: "Will she be deported?"
6:59 PM, Kinnelon, New Jersey, Jan 3 2019.




I am the ASC, the Sun.
I gave her the ruler of the 11th, Mercury, as my friend. I am trying to determine any contacts between the following:
- Ruler of the 12th (house of exile, solitary confinement, undoing, etc.): the Moon;
- Ruler of the 10th, the Judge (or Immigration), which is Venus;
- Ruler of the 7th, Jupiter, which would be her boyfriend;
- Ruler of the 9th, which is also Jupiter, for legal matters, or long distance journeys- which would come into consideration if she is deported, she would have to go back to Morocco from the States.

First off, I notice that she is in her detriment; in fact, as per Solar Fire, she is the weakest planet in the chart. The Moon (ruler of 12th, and also indicator of flow of events) is in none of its dignities, so not strong either. Jupiter, her boyfriend, and also ruler of the 9th; long distance journeys and legal matters; is in its rulership and terms, very strong.

So I see that the Moon is translating the light of Jupiter to Mercury and there is mixed reception. This could indicate that the boyfriend does in fact marry her? I'm not sure.. the Moon is weak, so is it strong enough to deliver?

Jupiter also rules the 9th, legal matters, so this could be interpreted as legal matters are coming to her, via the ruler of the 12th, the house of exile! Or a long distance journey, i.e. being deported. Very bleak.

There is no contact between Venus (judge, immigration) or her, so I'm somewhat confused with this.

My judgement is that she will be deported, and while the boyfriend attempts to marry her, but the matter is impeded due to the lack of strength of the planets involved.

I would appreciate your expert opinions on this harrowing matter. Thanks!
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 209

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not an expert opinion but to me also the chart looks negative for her.She is Mercury in her turned 7th hinging her hopes on her boyfriend. Mercury in Sagittarius shows her state - detriment and under the beams. America is represented by Jupiter, Lord of radical 9th as well as the turned 9th house. Radical 9th intercepted showing that her plans to lead her life abroad are stuck. Jupiter as the Lord for both her boyfriend and her ordered country shows she might have gotten involved with him solely to get an entry in America. Her boyfriend in her detriment but in his own sign seems focussed on himself and doesn't look like he will marry her. Jupiter (America) is in her detriment and she is in Jupiter's domicile. This explains her interest and attraction for this country and the country's rejection of her. Mars at the cusp of the 9th may show the obstacle that she is facing now . I think it may show the US authorities who want her to leave their country. There is a translation of light between Jupiter and Mercury but (if I'm not wrong) it is getting prohibited by Mars which applies to Mercury by a stressful square. Mercury is about to change signs from Jupiter's domain in Sagittarius to Capricorn which may show her move back from US to her motherland. So I agree with you that it looks like she will be deported.
Hope other more experienced members help with this chart.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 900

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not very accurate when Mercury is afflicted in transit by Mars (it is in my own chart and alleviated by Jupiter but in general I tend to make a lot of mistakes around this transit - and not just in horary), but I will say anyway that I see some positives here. One is that the angles are fixed, showing a lack of change and some stability around the matter. Another is that the Moon is in Sag, a sign of a benefic and that benefic is quite strong in the chart, and lords over Mercury. Moon carries the light of Jupiter and thus takes on the energy of that planet and gives it to Mercury, prohibiting the square to Mars that Mercury is applying to. Jupiter as a driving force in a chart can show luck, and difficulty being overcome, although it probably relates in part to the boyfriend. From the 5th, maybe there is a possible pregnancy too? Mercury is certainly afflicted and about to change signs to Capricorn, a sign of a malefic, where it will square Mars, but again that square is prohibited by the Moon. The PoF is also in a sign of Mercury.

What bothers me is that everything but Mars is below the earth. Mars is heavily emphasized in this chart and in the 9th house of foreign affairs. Prohibition should hopefully mean a close call rather than being forced out. I hope that is the case. I would say the Moon taking on the energy of dignified Jupiter would also be stronger even than Mars here. Lilly has emphasized this in various examples where the Moon completes a task in the energy of the planet it has conjunct to give light to another. Jupiter also trines the ascendant. All planets below could also just mean that the querent (here the astrologer) has no power to change the matter, so there is lack of control over the outcome and they have to witness it and take it in internally without much or any say? Anyway, I hope in the end that Jupiter's signification leads to something good. Fire energies tend to emphasize a need to take active movement towards solving the problem. If she does not have proof of the ex relationship from statements, can she get some in writing from acquaintances? My best friend received a letter from me and others to prove her relationship with her now ex husband, for example.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serene,
I think you have rendered an excellent judgement, and brought up many points that I did not take into consideration.

Quote:
Jupiter as the Lord for both her boyfriend and her ordered country shows she might have gotten involved with him solely to get an entry in America. Her boyfriend in her detriment but in his own sign seems focussed on himself and doesn't look like he will marry her.

I have to agree with you. She is a young and very attractive Muslim girl but she comes from a very restrictive family where they were hijabs, etc. She was offered a place to stay by this other guy (who is also a Muslim, an Arab) after her husband told her not to come back to the U.S., and I think she was so desperate to get out of that restrictive household, must have felt claustrophobic after her exposure to America, this was the only way she could find her way back into this country, and she jumped at the opportunity. And then, a relationship developed between them. While she came to this country as a modest, shy young girl; ever since her husband abandoned her and she's hooked up with this other guy, she seems to be a different person, wearing alluring clothing, partying with girlfriends, etc. I also agree with you that I think the boyfriend is focused on himself, in his own house, and in a very strong position to do so, in his dignity. He is in complete control. I'm not very good at interpreting receptions, what is the reception between them? What happens to this reception when she changes signs?

Under the current administration in the U.S., immigration has become a "dirty word", if you know what I mean. If she is denied immigration, and even if he marries her, I think she will still have a myriad of problems on her hand, because immigration will say she's just married another one to stay in this country. Then the application will have to be restarted but under a different premise. I think her boyfriend may realize that this may happen, and simply may not want to make that commitment or be involved in this type of legal matter for the next few years, and will back out. I don't see him marrying her at all, astrologically or otherwise. They have been together for 2 years, I think he should have married her by now if that was his intent, especially since the immigration process is taking so long.

Quote:
There is a translation of light between Jupiter and Mercury but (if I'm not wrong) it is getting prohibited by Mars which applies to Mercury by a stressful square.


Mercury does apply to Mars with a square. But the Moon moves faster and will conjunct Mercury before Mercury squares Mars.

BUT.....,on taking another look at the chart, I noticed Uranus, and I realize that this planet does not come into consideration in a classical interpretation, but I don't think it's stark presence can be ignored either in this chart; tightly conjunct the cusp of the 10th: Authority, the Judge; and BEFORE the Moon conjuncts Jupiter to translate the light of Jupiter to Mercury, Mercury trines ominous Uranus! Thus, the translation of light from Jupiter to Mercury, perhaps the only silver lining in this chart, is prohibited. Uranus forbodes sudden unexpected events anyway, but here Uranus is retrograde - making the situation even worse - basically, I see this as judgement against her, to return to her country, and this judgement is sudden and life changing, because soon after this trine, Mercury changes signs, so the situation changes; then it goes on to conjunct Saturn, the ruler of her turned 8th (endings, death of the matter, etc.), and then Mercury gets burned up by the Sun, which is also conjunct Pluto in her 8th; rebirth after death of something - death of her hopes, etc.! This looks really bad....

Am I just being too pessimistic? I think this is a really ominous horary with a very powerful statement of what is to be. Your thoughts?

Thanks!

[/u]
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit,

Quote:
Lilly has emphasized this in various examples where the Moon completes a task in the energy of the planet it has conjunct to give light to another.

Agree. But I believe he also says that unless the translating planet has some strength, it is like a blind man trying to help another blind man (or something like that...), and if the Moon has no strength, then nothing can come of it. The Moon is peregrine and in none of its dignities. Does it really have the strength to take the light from Jupiter to Mercury? Furthermore, Mercury trines Uranus on the cusp of the radical 10th *before* the Moon conjuncts Jupiter, and in my opinion, thereby prohibits the translation.

Quote:
Fire energies tend to emphasize a need to take active movement towards solving the problem. If she does not have proof of the ex relationship from statements, can she get some in writing from acquaintances? My best friend received a letter from me and others to prove her relationship with her now ex husband, for example.

I am her only witness, as she lived in the basement apartment of my house with her husband, and never really went out unless accompanied with her husband, and he hardly ever went out. I already provided a letter to Immigration many months ago indicating that I knew they lived as husband and wife in my house. It appears that Immigration is not giving much credence to my letter, since they told her she needs to provide more evidence. They also told her that she should not provide the same evidence to them again, and if so, it will be ignored. Regardless, she asked me to write another letter to them indicating the same, which I did today, this time notorized.

You see, anyone can write a letter saying they knew them as man and wife. What they need is more tangible evidence, such as utility bills addressed to both of them; or rental agreement in their names, or rent paid out of a joint account. Unfortunately, none of these things exist, as the utilities were included in the rent, and rent was paid in cash, hence no legal record. She was just new to this country, and let her husband take care of everything. She did not have a driver's license either. I don't think my letter will make any difference, they will just think that I'm her friend and lying to help her out.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 900

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the strength of the Moon, many traditional authors like Lilly emphasize the changeable nature of both the Moon and Mercury specifically on the planets they aspect, because they are swift and changeable by nature - the most inferior and changed by those they aspect rather than causing change themselves. The quote I am thinking of did not involve a dignified Moon but I cannot remember it offhand. The Moon would be much more heavily influenced via conjunction to Jupiter than it would be in dealing with its own energy here, IMO. The way Lilly described it was as if the Moon would be like Jupiter by carrying its light and giving it the the matter (here the person asked about). I wish I remembered the quotes offhand but it has been too many years. Conjunctions are especially different here, especially with Jupiter. I would not say this with just any aspect and any planet. Obviously if the Moon was itself more powerful that would be grand but it is not necessarily needed in such cases.

I don't know what Uranus would be saying but hopefully that is not the case regarding it being something that gets in the way. Normally I would not view a trine between Mercury and Uranus as afflictive, though. It could even be a surprise evidence that she remembers. I may be being overly optimistic here though, as a Sag Moon myself.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 900

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/translation.html

Here is maybe one quote I am thinking of - in this example Mercury takes on the matter (it has one minor dignity but that is not saying much). In this case Lilly did not even mention the fact that Mercury was technically besieged (or that Saturn was in fall and did not receive it) because the focus was more so that it was of the nature of dignified Mars.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 209

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all

Interesting perspective by Tanit and many good points.

Tauras, Uranus did catch my eye also. I had seen it as Uranus on MC showing a sudden change in the life of this lady.
Regarding receptions , Mercury is moving to Capricorn in Jupiter's fall and when that happens there will be two sided mutual rejection by Mercury and Jupiter for each other.. So may be this rough experience with the US authorities will leave a bad taste in her mouth and bring down her impression of both this country and her boyfriend.
Timing wise, by when do you think this matter will be resolved either way?
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only as a side note:

It should not be forgotten, that the USA and their authorities are Venus, lady of the 10th.

And if the Moon is, being void of course in Sagittarius, not so much impedited as in most of the other signs, then she should be strong enough to translate the light, and this simply because of her position in this sign. But of course even more when she is still in the conjuction of Jupiter in the same - and his own(!) - sign.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Obviously if the Moon was itself more powerful that would be grand but it is not necessarily needed in such cases" - Tanit
.

OK, I trust your expertise on this.

Quote:
It should not be forgotten, that the USA and their authorities are Venus, lady of the 10th. - Susato


Agree. And I'm not sure why I don't see any contact of the primary significators with Venus at all.

Quote:
Timing wise, by when do you think this matter will be resolved either way? Serene

This application has been processing for almost 2 years. The last letter from Immigration (that she sent me a copy of) was sent just before Christmas, in which they bluntly said that the evidence she has provided so far is inconclusive. She needs to provide more concrete evidence by Mid-March.
She told me that she has provided them everything she could already, there is nothing left that she can give them. I honestly don't think the notorized letter I sent her yesterday will make any difference.

Since you bring up the matter of time, I find it interesting that Mercury is at 28:17 in Sag and will slip into Capricorn in just about 2 degrees - 2 months - which corresponds with the date they have given her. At that time, it squares Mars, then goes on to conjunct Saturn and then combusts into the Sun. The Sun signifies magistrates, high sherifs, etc.

Be that as it may... let's focus back on the two stories that are being told by this horary, which are:

1) The light of Jupiter is successfully translated to the Moon.
BUT - what exactly does this mean in terms of the question asked? The question asked is "Will she be deported?" Does this conjunction imply she will not be deported?

2) The translation is prohibited by Mercury's application to Uranus. Does this mean that judgment is passed that she does get deported?

In order to answer this question, and this question alone, I think we should look at the future aspects of Mercury, and judge based on that. Will she get deported??

Mercury trines Uranus conjunct the MC, slips into another sign (change of circumstances), conjuncts Saturn, ruler of her 8th and 9th, and then combusts into the Sun. Saturn rules her turned 8th (all matters related to death, decay, fear, anxiety and loss. The quality and nature of death), the 9th (Long distance travel, voyages and journeys that take us to an unfamiliar environment. Overseas, foreign countries and distant places. Foreigners, pilgrims and explorers), and then gets burned up by the Sun (magistrates, high sherifs, etc.).

So I ask again - which way do you think this horary is going?
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 900

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The translation is prohibited by Mercury's application to Uranus. Does this mean that judgment is passed that she does get deported?


Good question for a modern approach. It would still prohibit Mercury to Mars, eh? I wonder what Uranus is doing in transit to the native. It is entering more stable Taurus in transit in March, which is when the evidence is needed.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 1464

Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Moon is not yet the deportation but the fear to be deported.

So the stress on your friend, made by the US-authorities, signified by the trine between your friend (Mercury) and Uranus, should be the priming for her to take the initiative to marry her friend. Uranus is at the MC and the cusp of the 10th, the US authorities, but it is retrograde and above all not in the same sign as the MC, so it is not as dangerous as it could possibly be, and if there was not a trine. And it could be doubted that aspects with the outer planets should be considered at all.

At least in my experience aspects of the outer planets don't prohibit.

The position of Jupiter at the cusp of the 7th from the 11th, the 11th being your friend's ascendant, indicates that Jupiter is to be treated as his significator in the first place. And while the Moon in Sgtittarius can act even if she was void of couse, the more she can act as a translator of the light when she is not even void and yet in the conjunction of Jupiter (see my side note at noon of today).

The lovers are connected by the Moon translating the light of their significators and thus signifying ther marriage.

Your friend should act, and at once, because the entrance of Mercury into the next sign would be a prohibition, so that then the Moon could not connect the lovers (them getting married) by translation of the light any longer.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 588

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Your friend should act, and at once, because the entrance of Mercury into the next sign would be a prohibition, so that then the Moon could not connect the lovers


I've asked her many times why she doesn't just get married to him..she tells me that he will marry her, but after this immigration application has been accepted. I never quite understood why the wait....
Which makes me suspicious of his true intentions.

If he is not sincere, then I think it should be indicated in this horary. Is it?

The other thing is, there is no connection between Venus (Lord 10) and the significators. That does not fit. The hour ruler of this chart is Saturn. Can this chart be radical?

Thanks!
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 209

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tauras thanks for all the additional info.

Personally I too have difficulty seeing the Venus as the ruler for US authorities partly because Venus does not fit nature wise and partly because there is no contact between the two. The chart should show their confrontation past or future. Mars or Jupiter(ruler of her turned 10th)

I'm not so sure about the prohibition by Uranus as I never checked for prohibitions by outer planets and this may be a valid point . Modern astrologers use the outer plants with success.

It's interesting to note that the arabic lot of exile falls on 25 degree Aries loosely conjunct on Uranus near MC.

Whatever happens with deportment I feel it''s highly unlikely that they will marry as both planets will soon be mutually rejecting (negative reception) each other and ideally I think it should take more than just a translation of light to foresee marriage .

Quote:
Mercury trines Uranus conjunct the MC, slips into another sign (change of circumstances), conjuncts Saturn, ruler of her 8th and 9th, and then combusts into the Sun. Saturn rules her turned 8th (all matters related to death, decay, fear, anxiety and loss. The quality and nature of death), the 9th (Long distance travel, voyages and journeys that take us to an unfamiliar environment. Overseas, foreign countries and distant places. Foreigners, pilgrims and explorers), and then gets burned up by the Sun (magistrates, high sherifs, etc.).

I agree with all of the above and see it the same way.
Though there are positive testimonies as elaborated by Tanit and Johannes in the chart that made me ponder for long but in the end personally I'm seeing a negative outcome for her. But I can be wrong of course.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 900

Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
. The hour ruler of this chart is Saturn. Can this chart be radical?


The hour ruler Saturn and the ascendant ruler Sun are in the same triplicity, and in fact the same sign, so there would be hour agreement, per Bonnati's hour agreement rules anyway. It seems radical to me given the descriptions it shows but the persons more connected to the matter did not ask the question, so it is debatable regarding it being radical.
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