skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Significator for friends and acquaintances

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 209

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:00 pm    Post subject: Significator for friends and acquaintances Reply with quote

We have all read this idea that modern astrology assigns the wider circle of acquaintances like members of a social club to the 11th house. Which makes me think where did the traditionalists put them? Traditionally which house signified such hobby groups or people having shared interests or members of some club? Is there is no mention of these in ancient texts? No house appointed to them ? Which would be a little strange considering such social groups arent a modern development. Some astrologers also make use of the 3rd house to signify associations but there's not much that i know about this practice except that those signified by the 3rd are like our family. I would personally want to assign the 7th house to an acquaintance considering them as the "person enquired about" but this modern idea about acquaintances belonging to the 11th leaves me somewhat undecided and confused. I would want to reserve the 11th for friends alone. Which probably also raises the question who can be called a friend and who can be an acquaintance. Everyone has their own concept of friendship that varies across cultures and also depends upon one's own outlook. For example an American would call someone their friend more easily than an Englishman i suppose? Or a Gemini person may count their social circle as friends while a Scorpio would be selective? There have been some good threads in past which discussed this problem like -

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14195

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1632
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Significator for friends and acquaintances Reply with quote

Serene wrote:
Traditionally which house signified such hobby groups or people having shared interests or members of some club? Is there is no mention of these in ancient texts? No house appointed to them ? Which would be a little strange considering such social groups arent a modern development. Some astrologers also make use of the 3rd house to signify associations but there's not much that i know about this practice except that those signified by the 3rd are like our family. I would personally want to assign the 7th house to an acquaintance considering them as the "person enquired about" but this modern idea about acquaintances belonging to the 11th leaves me somewhat undecided and confused. I would want to reserve the 11th for friends alone. Which probably also raises the question who can be called a friend and who can be an acquaintance. Everyone has their own concept of friendship that varies across cultures and also depends upon one's own outlook. For example an American would call someone their friend more easily than an Englishman i suppose? Or a Gemini person may count their social circle as friends while a Scorpio would be selective? There have been some good threads in past which discussed this problem like -

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?p=14195

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1632

I don't know if this will help settle your quandary as it is just circular to what you point out, but the 5th house rules clubhouses, arenas, gyms, theatres, parks, pubs etc.. All of the places you would associate where people gather with shared interests, or you are friendly with but wouldn't necessarily call friends. The people attending there would be the 7th (others) from the 5th or the 11th house.
If I had a person ask about someone they met at a party, for instance, I would look to the 11th house to signify that person. Even if it was a question about a friend at a party, I would use the 11th. For club ability (social skills) of people I often look at the placement and condition of Venus as well as the 11th and its Lord. You could even throw Ju and Me in there too.

You are right on the cultural aspects of it too. Hindu astrology reflects this by a greater emphasis on extensive family ties, caste, and dependent relationships rather than the wider society as a whole typified in the West. The early Indian texts put much more emphasis on the 11th being financial gain/income and the 3rd being more on the extended family as a subgroup of siblings. This has changed as modern Indian society has progressed more into the western model. So, you could say that the system has adapted as society has changed. The 11th house in Hindu astrology is still the house of income and now friends as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 209

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi AJ thanks for sharing your insights, they are helpful.

Quote:
the 5th house rules clubhouses, arenas, gyms, theatres, parks, pubs etc.. All of the places you would associate where people gather with shared interests, or you are friendly with but wouldn't necessarily call friends. The people attending there would be the 7th (others) from the 5th or the 11th house.


So this sheds some light as to the logic behind the modern astrologers using the 11th. But also it gives rise to another question in my mind. What should be done if the meeting with an acquaintance does not take place in these 5th house places? For example what if one gets to meet someone through a third person (say a friend or a partner) but the meeting itself happens at one of their homes? Would this person also belong to the 11th?


Quote:
The early Indian texts put much more emphasis on the 11th being financial gain/income and the 3rd being more on the extended family as a subgroup of siblings. This has changed as modern Indian society has progressed more into the western model. So, you could say that the system has adapted as society has changed. The 11th house in Hindu astrology is still the house of income and now friends as well.

I dont know much vedic so this is something i was not aware about the friendship significations in the hindu astrology. The approach of Vedic astrologers is somewhat fatalistic and thats why i never delved in it. And being more inetersted in the psychological aspect i started out with the western natal astrology but soon got disinterested with that. I thought my relationship with astrology was over when i stumbled upon horary and from then on i got hooked on to astrology once again!! Sorry for the rant!!!

Very Happy

Best regards to you
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serene wrote:

But also it gives rise to another question in my mind. What should be done if the meeting with an acquaintance does not take place in these 5th house places? For example what if one gets to meet someone through a third person (say a friend or a partner) but the meeting itself happens at one of their homes? Would this person also belong to the 11th?

Hey Serene: All rants welcome.Smile
Since you mentioned culture as a factor I just thought it would be interesting to mention this difference between the systems.

All I can comment is how I would approach it. Assuming the meetings are social and not a business one I can broadly see two scenarios to a quesited:
If the client has not met this person before I would use the 7th.
If they already met I would use the 11th house.
I wouldn't use the 7th from the 4th, or the 10th for a social meeting. You could see how others will perceive your home from the 10th.
This is all conditional of course depending on the actual question the client asks. That can skew things. Sometimes, the hardest part of horary is just understanding what a client is really asking. If they asked let's say about if the person they had met would is/become an enemy you would have to additionally look for contacts with the 6th and its ruler for open and the 12th and its lord for secret enemies.
Cheers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 209

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi AJ
Many thanks for your sharing your thoughts and insights. Yes you guessed it right, the question asked has some undertones of doubt and the querent wanted to know what the other person thought about her. Basically unsure if they see her like a competitor or an enemy or without any malice with friendly intent. So then it would be good to check the 12th house additionally for this as you suggest.

I think I like your approach of giving the quesited 11th house if the querent has met them them before. This simplifies things a lot!

I was wondering why ancients never had a separate house for acquaintances and wider social circle ? Surely this is not something like internet which did not exist in ancient times?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 209

Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skscript article on houses makes use of the 11th for acquaintances
Quote:
In modern astrology it is said to rule the wider social circle of acquaintances and groups, broader ambitions, political ideals and those who share our aims. Its condition indicates the fidelity or falseness of friends


But William Lilly never mentions acquaintances in astrological houses. And here's what Frawley writes in his Horary Textbook

Quote:

11th House - It is our friends. Be careful here: the modern use of 'friend', at least in England, is much freer than whatis meant. Someone with whom I get along well at work is my colleague (7th house), not my friend; the person with whom I exchange amiable banalities in the pub is my acquaintance (7th again). Nor does the lIth show 'social institutions' as the moderns claim
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serene wrote:
Skscript article on houses makes use of the 11th for acquaintances
Quote:
In modern astrology it is said to rule the wider social circle of acquaintances and groups, broader ambitions, political ideals and those who share our aims. Its condition indicates the fidelity or falseness of friends


But William Lilly never mentions acquaintances in astrological houses. And here's what Frawley writes in his Horary Textbook

Quote:

11th House - It is our friends. Be careful here: the modern use of 'friend', at least in England, is much freer than whatis meant. Someone with whom I get along well at work is my colleague (7th house), not my friend; the person with whom I exchange amiable banalities in the pub is my acquaintance (7th again). Nor does the lIth show 'social institutions' as the moderns claim


I haven't read Frawley other than an excerpt here and there. I really haven't an opinion on his writings.

Here is some thingish thought on the quote.
In the quote above by Frawley it says that the word friend is freer than what is meant now. I don't know when this was written but in 2019 and the society of Facebook and Instagram I would present that the modern use of the word "friend" is very free.
I do pick a bone with the where he says that the 5th doesn't represent social institutions.
In Christian Astrology, Lilly page 53 or so says for the 5th house,
Quote:
By this house we judge of Children, of Embassadours, of the state of a Woman with child, of Banquets, of Ale-houses, Tavernes, Playes, Messengers or Agents for Republick; of the wealth of the Father, the Ammunition of a Town beseiged; if the Woman with child shall bring forth male or female; of the health or sicknesse of his Son or Daughter that asks the Question.
It ruleth the Stomack, Liver, Heart, Sides and Back, and is masculine. Of Colours, Black and White, or Honey-colour, and is a Succedant house; It's Cosignificators are Leo and Venus, who doth joy in this house, in regard it's the house of Pleasure, Delight and Merriment; it's wholly unfortunate by Mars or Saturn, and they therein shew disobedient children and untoward.


Can we believe Lilly? In this case, I can as I have personally verified it in my own analysis of hundreds of charts. As mentioned in the prior post the astrological logic is for the 11th house for friends and acquaintances is sound too. Frawley conceivably has also tested this and came to the opposite conclusion. This I don't know. It could be just an untested opinion of his own or based on another obscure opinion.

Edited...2.13.19
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 209

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Aj!! Thanks for sharing your methods and approach towards this matter.i enjoyed reading your rant (if at all it can be called a rant!! . Very Happy ) but today when I came back to reply to it I saw it had been edited out . Actually I agree with you wholeheartedly
. I live to read how various astrologers employ a myriad of methods and how they work for them. Astrology is an art form after all besides being a science! So yes we can all agree to disagree. I am not much experienced and currently exploring various methods and trying to see what's working and not working for me. Sorta making up and defining my approach. So it's helpful when you or someone else shares their methods and how they learnt . I also agreed about your comment on armchair astrology !! (Though at times I may be guilty of it too!! Embarassed )

Yes I would personally agree with Lilly completely! I started off by reading the Skyscript notes on Christian astrology by Deb and Anthony Louis'Astrology Plain and Simple (because they were freely available on the net) and they suited me well. Some time later in as acquainted with some Frawley students who have been quite accurate I noticed and so recently I started exploring Frawley's approach as well. I noticed I too don't agree with many things he writes like the 5th house matter you mentioned here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated