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Calculating Profections in Hellenistic Astrology

 
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petosiris



Joined: 08 Oct 2017
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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:41 am    Post subject: Calculating Profections in Hellenistic Astrology Reply with quote

One of the most widespread time-lord techniques in Hellenistic astrology is referred today as annual profections. The Hellenistic astrologers did not have a specific name like most of their techniques, although some refer to a method for “determining the lord of the year”. There are many variations of the so-called annual profections that do not focus on a single houseruler, and for the most part there is lack of agreement on how to calculate monthly, daily and hourly types of profection.

Annual Profections
The earliest surviving reference to profections is found in the third book of Astronomica by the Roman poet Manilius. According to Manilius, the first year belongs to the sign of the Sun, while the next and subsequent years belong to the signs that follow in zodiacal order. The rationale given by Manilius for using the Sun is that it takes one year for the Sun to complete one course. This method to annual profections seems to be unique to Manilius.

The Anthology by Vettius Valens contains an abundance of different time-lord procedures. One chapter, attributed to a “Hermetic” source (Valens, 4.27) also suggests counting from the Sun, although only when it is found at an angle. This chapter describes a predomination method that considers four possible releasing places. If the Sun does not happen to be angular, one begins from the Moon if it is at the “degree of an angle”. If both are inapplicable, one begins from the Lot of Fortune if it happens to be angular. If all three points are inapplicable as specified, one counts from the Ascendant. If both luminaries are “approaching the angles“, one should start counting from the luminary that is of the sect in favour. The remaining of the chapter describes more predomination rules, although the passage is short and fragmentary.

Manilius states that some approved of an alternative approach where they counted years, months, days and hours from the Ascendant. This is the most common method of annual profections in the Hellenistic tradition and remained such in the Arabic tradition. It is mentioned by Dorotheus of Sidon, Firmicus Maternus, Paulus Alexandrinus and Hephaistio of Thebes. David Pingree translates the Arabic passage of the fourth book by Dorotheus as follows:

When a native is born, the lord of the year is the lord of the house [ascendent] in which the native was born. Thus count from the ascendent a year for each sign until you reach the year which you desire; the lord of that house is the lord of the year. Look at the lord of this sign, whether it is a benefic or a malefic, and in the base nativity how its position was and in which foundation it was. From the base-nativity is known what is concerning him [the native] at the beginning of the year, and the beginning of the year is always when the Sun enters the beginning of the minute in which it was on the day of the native's nativity. (Pingree, Dorotheus, 4)

Although Firmicus Maternus (Mathesis, 2.27) states that one should count from the rising sign, he mentions that some astrologers count from the Sun for day births, and from the Moon for night births. This presents additional evidence for counting from other places besides the rising sign based on considerations of predomination. Claudius Ptolemy in book 4, chapter 10 of the Tetrabiblos also describes annual profections from each of the releasing places he outlines previously in the same chapter. Rhetorius of Egypt in chapter 54 of the Compendium also mentions releasing not only from the Ascendant, but also from the Sun, the Moon, and the Lot of Fortune. A brief passage in CCAG 2.212.30-213.1 mentions Rhetorius in relation to counting from the parents’ lots for that topic.

Most astrologers focus on the planetary condition of the domicile ruler of the sign the year has come to. Some astrologers such as Dorotheus and Rhetorius also mention examining the sign and its configurations, and transits in relation to the quality of the year. In Books 4, 5 and 6 of the Anthology, Valens introduces a more complex method of profections, which evidently is partially derived from a lost work of an earlier author known as Critodemus.

The summary of Cridodemus (CCAG 8.3.102) mentions briefly that he dealt with the giving over (paradosis) of one planet to another, which sounds similar to the delineations given in Anthology 4.17-24. This does not represent conclusive evidence that Vettius Valens took his delineations for annual profections from Critodemus since the consideration of which planet is imparting to another is also used in the exaltation method of Balbilus, decennials (referred to as the method of dodekatemoria by Valens) and ingresses. Thus the chapters on the effects of the transmissions of the Ascendant, the planets, and the four lots in Valens could be unique to him.

According to Valens, one can profect from every planet, place and lot, and not just from the Ascendant, although he does emphasize the luminary of the sect in favour, the Ascendant and the other luminary. What seems to be different from other authors, is that the planets that occupy the sign take over the role of the houseruler. The releaser handles over the year to the houseruler only if the sign is empty.

In Book V, Valens introduces an elaboration of the previous rationale. The giving over of one point to another is also active in the years of the native that are multiple of the distance of signs, both taken as ordinal numbers. For example an Ascendant in Virgo would profect to Mars in Libra every second year from birth, and to Jupiter in Sagittarius every fourth year from birth. Both Valens and the Liber Hermetis credit Critodemus for a table of numerical profections of the Moon in relation to health crises. Critodemus emphasizes profections to planets in years which are multiple of 3 for Saturn, 9 for Jupiter, 7 for Mars, 18 for the Sun, 5 for Venus, 8 for Mercury and 13 for the Moon. The rationale behind those numbers is unknown. Valens says that if the year is not composite, one should extend the preceding interval as active for that given year.

Another method attributed to Hermes (Valens, 4.29) says that one should count from the Sun for mental matters, from the Moon for physical matters and the mother, and from the Lot of Fortune. These texts indicate that approaches to annual profections in the Hellenistic tradition were quite varied and often few starting points were used depending on the topic. Hermes states that one should use the Sothic year, which was equivalent to the year mentioned in Dorotheus.

Monthly Profections
There is even greater difference of opinion when it comes to monthly profections, perhaps partially because of disagreement on what period of time constitutes one month. Manilius states that one should begin counting from the Moon, and the rationale given is that it takes one month for the Moon to complete its course. Strangely, given his rationale for annual profections, Manilius later implies that there are 12 months in a year. Perhaps “course” is meant in the sense of an approximate or idealized synodic month rather than as the length of a sidereal month.

Most manuscripts of the Tetrabiblos present 28 day monthly profections, albeit from the sign the year has come to. This makes the domicile ruler of the sign assigned the year - time-lord over the first and the thirteenth month of that year. 28 days approximates the lunar month, and 13 months make 364 days which is approximately the length of the year. In the Arabic tradition, Al-Biruni describes monthly profections as consisting of 28 days 1 hour and 51 minutes to make it align with the 365 day year. Only two conflicting MSS. of the Tetrabiblos describe profections using 30 day months (Robbins, 1940).

Paulus and Hephaistio also describe profecting every month from the sign assigned the year, although they do not specify the length of the month. Since Hephaistio specifies that the daily profections are counted every two and one half days, it seems reasonable to make the assumption that he meant a year consisting of 12 months, each comprising approximately 30 days. This variation became the most prevalent one in the Arabic, Medieval and Renaissance traditions.

This approach of counting signs from the profected signs seems relatively absent in the rest of the Hellenistic tradition and its later popularity may have been partially influenced by Ptolemy. Most of the earlier authors present lot-like calculations for finding the sign of the month. One variant (Valens, 4.29) has a brief passage attributed to Hermes which says to take the distance from the transiting Sun to the Moon at the nativity, and then count the same distance from the sign assigned the year (profected Ascendant).

Similar calculation is later attributed to Nechepso by Valens (Anthology, 5.4), although it counts from the Ascendant of the nativity instead of the profected Ascendant. Levente László in private communication affirmed that the translation by Robert Schmidt and Mark Riley on the second part of the passage are mistaken. Schmidt and Riley both mistook the calculation being given for the operative “days” (τὰς δὲ ἡμέρας) for implying reversal of the monthly calculation for “day” births. This translation is also inconsistent conceptually, since it would imply that the diurnal calculation is thirteen times faster than the nocturnal calculation.

Firmicus Maternus (Mathesis, 2.28) does not even mention monthly profections. Instead, he describes an alternative technique using a division of the year. Beginning with the lord of the year, one assigns the days of the year among the planets following in zodiacal order, each star given a specific amount of days in proportion to its minor recurrence years. In other words, the year is divided by the sum of the minor years and multiplied by the minor years of each star. Annual divisions are also described by Valens (Valens, 4.30) and Hephaistio (Apotelesmatics, 2.36) with slight variations of the exact length of time because only Valens calculates the hours.

Hephaistio mentions an alternative division in which each sign is assigned the minor years of the domicile ruler, beginning from the sign that is given the year, although Saturn is assigned only 30 days, with the reasoning given by Hephaistio is that the two domiciles of Saturn are adjacent. After 184 days, the same division is repeated until the year is completed. Valens mentions that some astrologers made “monthly” forecasts according to the houserulers of New and Full Moon, although his opinion is that the transiting Sun foretells the outcome of the month due to arousing the power of signs and time-lords (Anthology, 5.4).

Daily and Hourly Profections
Few astrologers describe daily profections and even fewer mention hourly profections. Manilius says one should count daily and hourly profections from the Ascendant with each sign being given a day twice a month (2 1/2 days?) and one hour once a day. Goold (1977) suggests that double-hours are meant, rather than planetary hours.

Ptolemy uses 12 daily profections in a month with most MSS. giving the length of 2 1/3 days, while only those that give the 30 day monthly profections report a length of 2 1/2 days. Paulus also says that one should count daily profections from the sign assigned the month, albeit every sign given one day rather than 1/12 of a month. Hephaistio gives the length of 2 1/2 days.

Valens describes a method of multiplying the years of the nativity by 5 1/4, adding the days from birth, and dividing the result by twelve, giving one to each sign. He says that some astrologers count from the sign just following the Moon. This handy calculation yields one sign per day. Dorotheus gives a lot-like formula, saying one should measure the distance from the transiting Sun to the transiting Moon, and the same distance from the Ascendant at the nativity.

Different calculation is attributed to Nechepso by Valens (Anthology, 5.4). The operative day is determined by counting from the transiting Moon to the Sun at the nativity, and then the same distance from the Ascendant. The length of these two profections vary according to the speed of the Moon. Perhaps the appeal of these lots is that they dispense with the ambiguity of calendars and are instead based on concurrent astronomical positions and planetary revolutions.

Bibliography
Dorothei Sidonii Carmen Astrologicum, ed. David Pingree, Teubner, Leipzig, 1976.
Firmicus Maternus, Ancient Astrology, Theory and Practice: Matheseos Libri VIII, trans. Jean Rhys Bram, Noyes Press, Park Ridge, New Jersey, 1975.
Greenbaum, Dorian Gieseler (trans.), Late Classical Astrology: Paulus Alexandrinus and Olympiodorus, with the Scholia from Later Commentators, ed. Robert Hand, ARHAT, Reston, VA, 2001.
Hephaistio of Thebes, Apotelesmatics, Book II, trans. Robert H. Schmidt, The Golden Hind Press, Cumberland, MD, 1998.
Kraus, P. al-Biruni: The Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology, transl. by R. Ramsay Wright (Book Review). Orientalistische Literaturzeitung, 38, 692, 1935.
Manilius, Astronomica, ed. and trans. G. P. Goold, Loeb Classical Library, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1977
Pingree, David, Vettii Valentis Antiocheni anthologiarum libri novem, B.G. Teubner, Leipzig, 1986.
Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos, ed. and trans. F. E. Robbins, Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 1940.
Rhetorius the Egyptian, trans. James Herschel Holden, American Federation of Astrologers, Tempe, Arizona, 2009.
Schmidt, Robert (trans.) and Robert Hand (ed.). The Astrological Record of the Early Sages in Greek, The Golden Hind Press, Berkeley Springs, WV, 1995.
Vettius Valens, The Anthology, Book V & VI, trans. Robert Schmidt, ed. Robert Hand, The Golden Hind Press, Cumberland, MD, 1997.
Vettius Valens, The Anthology, trans. Mark T. Riley, online, December, 2010.
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Mari



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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for this great overview! An interesting topic and so much to say, but I'm not sure what kind of comments you expect, so I'd better rather ask some questions.

1. Does anyone use the system of division of the year of Firmicus Maternus?

2. Do you personally use the daily and hourly profections in your practice and how? We have already touched this a bit in my topic on transits. As I understood you must use some low-scale time lordship in your predictive techniques, I'm curious about it (I must admit I personally can't get anything satisfying out of this)
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petosiris



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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mari wrote:
Thank you for this great overview! An interesting topic and so much to say, but I'm not sure what kind of comments you expect, so I'd better rather ask some questions.

1. Does anyone use the system of division of the year of Firmicus Maternus?

2. Do you personally use the daily and hourly profections in your practice and how? We have already touched this a bit in my topic on transits. As I understood you must use some low-scale time lordship in your predictive techniques, I'm curious about it (I must admit I personally can't get anything satisfying out of this)


Hi Mari,
I do want to apologize that while this overview can serve as technical and historical basis for a discussion on complicated and mutually conflicting chronocrator procedures in one relative short historical period, I could have added my own personal take on the material, and therefore added practical utility to this endeavour. I actually wrote this article few months ago for a person who is no longer interested in the material, but I decided I may just upload it instead of sitting on disk drive.

(I used the words ''sign'', ''profection'' and some citations in ways that I would not normally do, the somewhat incoherent structure of the article, only because of pragmatic purposes of getting the article across to this person.)

1. I don't know anyone using it regularly. In fact I know of only one blogger that even thought about this matter - https://beyondtheheaven.wordpress.com/2013/01/22/delphic-oracle-and-annual-divisions/

It is noteworthy that it survived in the Renaissance and it appears in Junctinus' work, even though with a twist. Hephaistio and Valens mentioning it suggests to me that it probably was somewhat widespread in that time-frame precisely for the reason that monthly profections are confusing when it comes to the calendar involved (and there were all kinds of calendars in antiquity). It also allows for making interpretations based on a planet distributing to another, which I found the most useful aspect of Hellenistic time-lord procedures - Sign 5 of Sign 2 doesn't tell you much, but Sun distributing to Saturn allows you to make detailed and specific predictions. I use this method with all chronocrators in my practice - http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10382

2. I have experimented with many kinds of daily and hourly profections, and the method attributed to Nechepso seems very reasonable to me. I think that using daily and hourly profections from Venus for affairs, and from Sun for the father becomes very redundant because a person can't experience so many different kinds of events in such a short time-span, so while I do use profections from every point in the chart for the year, I tend to use only one monthly and one daily point (''Lots'') that show the emphasized events of the yearly distributions.

Just an hour ago I had an experience with the following adult nativity - he had Mars profecting to the Sun in the year, and at the same time he had the daily Lot in empty Scorpio, and this greatly emphasized quarrels with the superiors/boss to the point that the native was greatly distressed, (and this was so with Sun transiting the sign of natal Saturn, Mars transiting the sign of natal Fortune and Mercury, and the Moon itself transiting empty Aquarius.)

I've stood somewhat away from hourly profections probably for the same reasons you are, but I am interested in having some rational model for using hourly procedures. My experimentation with using the daily Lot with Egyptian terms and the exact degrees of the planets, for example, does not satisfy me. So it could be that using the 2 1/3 time-frames of the Moon transit and the daily lot be more useful, and at least that is my limited experience so far. In any case, I prefer the hourly procedure to have some obvious natural basis in nature.

Edit: I have remarked this (in a sort of pessimistic rant) once on another forum and I do believe it is important to have in mind ''Most undistinguished nativities live inactive and isolated days, months and even years, I bet most people can't name a single noteworthy event for most years of their lives. Some people often want me to predict intercourse, advancement and profit in the day and month ahead, only to be disappointed when I tell them that nothing important will happen other than some conversations, drinks, cheer and the like, even with profections to benefics. But this is the truth.''

Knowledge of the sublunar realm is just as important as of the heavenly for the purposes of astrology.
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Mari



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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, this is very interesting.

Quote:
and the method attributed to Nechepso seems very reasonable to me


Do you mean this passage from Valens?

The King had this opinion about the operative month: determine the distance from the sun’s current position to the moon’s position at birth, then count that distance from the Ascendant. It will be necessary to examine the ruler of the sign where the count stops to see if it is in operative signs, and to make a
judgement about the stars in conjunction or in aspect, whether benefic or malefic. (For day births, determine the distance from the moon’s current position to the sun’s position at birth; count that from the Ascendant.)


Basically a sort of a hybrid natal-transit Lot of Fortune where the light of the sect is the natal one? That's an interesting idea, I will try to test it. Have you ever heard of "Lot of Daimon" of the kind? Have you ever tried it out of interest?

Quote:

I tend to use only one monthly and one daily point (''Lots'')


A monthly lot? A monthly profection? The sign of New Moon?

My issue with monthly profections is that there are these very important differences (12 or 13, etc) and IMO these differences may result from the fact that the speculations are disconnected from the motion of the Moon. Which is not OK, because there is basically nothing more important than the Sun, the Moon and Asc. IMO the only logical system would be based either on Lunar returns (within the frame of a Solar return) or on New/Full Moons (which would give 13 months with one month being "in common" between the two years)
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Mari



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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Knowledge of the sublunar realm is just as important as of the heavenly for the purposes of astrology.


Exactly, so much this. And yeah, I see what you are talking about very well.
Although, with lunar returns/transits I personally have no problem with the hour of intercourse and profit month ahead, intercourse probably the easiest thing for the "undistinguished nativities" Lala Happy Well, precisely because of what you say: chatter, drinks, intercourse, flu, family conflicts or conflicts at work. If a person have a stable low-paid job what kind of a great profit can he or she make most of the time? A gift, a nice shopping. A basket of fruit and wine on a great Venus/Jupiter transit. Similarly, if the person is well-off, the bad periods would only show some less brilliant periods and gains will be important gains.

On the other hand, I found true the contrary too: if a person has unstable revenues (say, an independent adviser or smth), profections or not, timelords or not, every month the II will show the changing situation.

And so forth...

As I said, my personal problem is rather about spotting the important events when they happen to these "undistinguished nativities" (well, because they still do happen). Confused
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petosiris



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Posted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The King had this opinion about the operative month: determine the distance from the sun’s current position to the moon’s position at birth, then count that distance from the Ascendant. It will be necessary to examine the ruler of the sign where the count stops to see if it is in operative signs, and to make a judgement about the stars in conjunction or in aspect, whether benefic or malefic. (For day births, determine the distance from the moon’s current position to the sun’s position at birth; count that from the Ascendant.)


Yes, I meant that passage, but note that the last sentence has been misunderstood by Riley, Hand and Schmidt. The last sentence obviously meant the operative ''day'', not a reversal for ''day'' births.

So if you want to use the operative month (sign), count from the transiting Sun to the Moon at the nativity, and the same distance from the Ascendant. If you want to use the operative day (sign), count from the transiting Moon to the Sun at the nativity, and the same distance from the Ascendant.

Quote:
Basically a sort of a hybrid natal-transit Lot of Fortune where the light of the sect is the natal one? That's an interesting idea, I will try to test it. Have you ever heard of "Lot of Daimon" of the kind? Have you ever tried it out of interest?


I use both Fortune and Daimon.

It obviously has connection with the Lot of Fortune and probably with the Lot of Daimon. However, this technique is the same for both diurnal and nocturnal nativities, you are just using two different reference points - Sun for month and Moon for day.

I also use the lot in a different way from the way the Greek and Latin sources describe it (using the rulers). I use it in the same way Valens uses profections, emphasizing the natal placements over the domicile rulers (although as in the above example, empty Scorpio does tend to give malefic events of Martial nature, especially since the nativity was diurnal with Jupiter not seeing Mars).

Quote:
As I said, my personal problem is rather about spotting the important events when they happen to these "undistinguished nativities" (well, because they still do happen).


I think that having methods that involve downtime of empty and weak signs and emphasis on ascending signs, as well as the confluence of hierarchical systems (Ptolemy says something to that effect in 4.10) can remove the problem of everything is ''on'' all the time. Then it becomes a question of whether the methods work in predicting specific noteworthy events.
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Mari



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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes, I meant that passage, but note that the last sentence has been misunderstood by Riley, Hand and Schmidt. The last sentence obviously meant the operative ''day'', not a reversal for ''day'' births.


So did I Confused Lala Happy

Quote:
So if you want to use the operative month (sign), count from the transiting Sun to the Moon at the nativity, and the same distance from the Ascendant. If you want to use the operative day (sign), count from the transiting Moon to the Sun at the nativity, and the same distance from the Ascendant.


That makes sense and it looks brilliant. To be clear for a daybirth the "month marker" would be his own Spirit moving with the Sun by app. 1°/day and coming back to its natal position on this birthday (the transiting Sun = nat. Sun). And his "day marker" will be his own Fortune moving with the Moon 1 circle/a month and coming back to its natal position every Lunar return (transiting Moon = natal Moon).

(and for night birth the "month marker" will be Fortune moving circle/year and "daily marker" Spirit moving circle/month).

That looks great and I will definitely try it (I wonder how I ever could miss it). I particularly like everything's being logical and taken into account, I like the idea of a "reality-based tool" within Solar/Lunar return techniques, etc. Besides, it is so easy to calculate and use.

The only problem with it (which is not really a problem, but rather an indicator that it can't be enough by itself) is that this technique gives us the same signs/chronocrators sequence for every year and every lunar return (like, say, passing through Pisces every March of every year, even if from year to year Pisces, Jupiter and Venus are different in state, configuration, signification, etc.).
I'm actually relieved to find it out, because I've noticed from my observations that people often still have their personal unlucky or empty or active/on the move months, just as I noticed that Lunar returns often unfold differently from person to person (which I wasn't able to explain to myself so far). These clock-like chronocrator lots can explain it a lot (when activating the natal places).

But, IMO it still keeps the question open for a complementary thing...

(And since Zodiacal releasing is such an evident complementary thing, I want to clarify, although it's offtopic, that I do practice the aphesis and I really find it useful. The thing is that from my observation the releasing indicates rather the quality of time, a sort of general circumstances and also their perception - which is interesting because the Spirit actually signifies spirit and I can see it very clearly through releasing, a sort of change in perception of things. But I personally don't find it useful, especially on the daily level, with the regard of timelordship)


Last edited by Mari on Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mari



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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
As I said, my personal problem is rather about spotting the important events when they happen to these "undistinguished nativities" (well, because they still do happen).



I think that having methods that involve downtime of empty and weak signs and emphasis on ascending signs, as well as the confluence of hierarchical systems (Ptolemy says something to that effect in 4.10) can remove the problem of everything is ''on'' all the time. Then it becomes a question of whether the methods work in predicting specific noteworthy events.


Big question for me that I'm trying to settle down in my head.
On one hand, yes, "it becomes a question of whether the methods work in predicting specific noteworthy events": am I missing something? (which is surely true and I'm looking for improving my understanding of lower-scale chronocrators with the regard to natal/solar return)

On the other hand, there is also a kind of philosophical issue with "what is a noteworthy event"? What is an event at all? State vs event. Process vs event. Looks evident, but it's not: neither in theory (most of the events if not accidents are a result of a process), nor in practice (people seeing a chronic state, a process or a marking point of these two as an event).
Most people give as important events of their year the period when they were in love or the period when they lacked money, which are not the events, but they somehow perceive it this way. Inversely, they can consider events as a process or state: say a person had a promotion and met his future partner and went for a distant journey (three rather important events) - given there was no particular financial trouble, a person will surely qualify this as a "lucky period of my life".
Again, processes and events can occult each other: a person can experience at once a loss of a family member and a very good deal, depending on a person he or she may not even notice one of the two, etc.

(That is why I pay much attention to the Asc natal/solar return/lunar return to see how the person will be on this period and what the person will be into (and honestly I feel that in most cases it's almost enough) and "state of things". Since people are so much messed with state/process/event that's pretty OK for them, but not satisfying for me personally. I'm still looking to how see all of this as clearly as possible in advance. But well, judging from the sources we have, Hellenistic astrologers were somewhat concerned about it too)
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petosiris



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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The only problem with it (which is not really a problem, but rather an indicator that it can't be enough by itself) is that this technique gives us the same signs/chronocrators sequence for every year and every lunar return (like, say, passing through Pisces every March of every year, even if from year to year Pisces, Jupiter and Venus are different in state, configuration, signification, etc.).


The monthly profection lot is the same every year in the same way that the yearly profection is the same every twelve years, also one problem of Ptolemaic profection is that every first and last month of the year indicates the greater prevalence of the Lord of the Year, with the birthday being the absolute triple down, yet nothing of that type usually happens. So starting the counting from the profected Ascendant does not solve the problem, it merely substitutes it with another in my opinion. What does solve the problem is:
1. The usage of other techniques
2. The application of common sense when it comes to age and environment (deduced by 1.)

When it comes to states and events, I like the analogy given by Valens - Just as a stone hurled against some skillfully-crafted bronze object hits it only momentarily, but its clang echoes for quite some time - in the same way, when the stars are chronocrators, they display their causative effects only briefly, but during the succeeding periods they are active, just like the clang. - https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/vettius%20valens%20entire.pdf

The planets are not on us all time, but they do indicate emphasis on certain events by these emotional states you are referring to. That is what I meant earlier, is that one can deduce the event by confluence of the higher and lower time-lords, and its impact by the duration of the greatest time-lord.
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Mari



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Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The monthly profection lot is the same every year in the same way that the yearly profection is the same every twelve years, also one problem of Ptolemaic profection is that every first and last month of the year indicates the greater prevalence of the Lord of the Year, with the birthday being the absolute triple down, yet nothing of that type usually happens. So starting the counting from the profected Ascendant does not solve the problem, it merely substitutes it with another in my opinion.


Yes, I agree.

Quote:
What does solve the problem is:
1. The usage of other techniques
2. The application of common sense when it comes to age and environment (deduced by 1.)


Exactly what I was thinking.

BTW, Petosiris, since we the only ones to kind of chat here, may I ask you a question? Completely offtopic, but I noticed that you have a good memory for the text references. I have an educational background in book editing which makes me explore this topic a bit: do you recall having come across any house significations relevant to writing career/book editing in Hellenistic sources? (I have so far seen only planetary ones). Of course, we must bear in mind the differences in this industry then and now (which are BTW not that enormous b/w then and, say, 18th c): the editors who ordered the production of copies were booksellers and writers didn't have author's rights (which are relatively new too), etc. I don't start a new topic so far, but if by chance you have something in mind we can transfer it there. If not, I can edit the post and delete this piece of text.
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petosiris



Joined: 08 Oct 2017
Posts: 141

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
BTW, Petosiris, since we the only ones to kind of chat here, may I ask you a question? Completely offtopic, but I noticed that you have a good memory for the text references. I have an educational background in book editing which makes me explore this topic a bit: do you recall having come across any house significations relevant to writing career/book editing in Hellenistic sources? (I have so far seen only planetary ones). Of course, we must bear in mind the differences in this industry then and now (which are BTW not that enormous b/w then and, say, 18th c): the editors who ordered the production of copies were booksellers and writers didn't have author's rights (which are relatively new too), etc. I don't start a new topic so far, but if by chance you have something in mind we can transfer it there. If not, I can edit the post and delete this piece of text.


I think what you are asking is whether there is a particular house assigned writing and scribes (the closest ''profession'' one can think of), and I do not particularly recall anything of that sort. In medieval and renaissance authors, you might encounter the 3rd for letters because of Gemini. Generally, the indications of the twelve places are more parsimonious in Hellenistic authors, one of the reasons being that event astrology had a very different methodology from Arabic horary astrology which put the emphasis on house rulers, which necessitated putting everything into the houses.

Honestly, many of the rulerships are rather arbitrary and do not possess solid astronomical basis (especially in your example with writing). There is something compelling in using the eastern sign as the place of birth and life (sunrise) compared to using the III for writing, because ''bruh, it is the 3rd sign relative to Aries if it was Gemini''.
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Mari



Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Posts: 56
Location: Paris

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for confirming what I sought. If even you don't remember anything Smile
Yeah, in this domain we have only planetary significations and these planetary significations can sometimes be completed with a mention of a house (when significators fall into certain accidentally operative house or a socially meaningful house from Asc and/or from Fortune).

Now I don't agree much that house significations are arbitrary in principle, I on the contrary find them logical in principle: with the public and social sphere above the horizon and its private "mirror" below; with angles having a priority meaning and other houses defining themselves as pertaining to angles or falling apart from them. Understanding the system and taking into account the context, most of the signification is quite clear.
It's most evident to illustrate with the V/XI example. We've got angles: the culminating point which quite reasonable signifies anything public and socially culminating (public career, honours, occupation, marriage, children, etc) and its "private life" opposite on IC (when it doesn't signify the death Smile. Now XI and V signify what pertains to X and IV. It's easier to see from the IV/V. What pertains to a Roman time household (the essence of the private life vs public affairs )? What's its function? If you take a reasonably well to-do person's household, you'd find there family/spouse/children. You'd find there a number of servitors running it. But you'd also find there the most of a social and professional life (again, in Roman world it's not social vs private; it's private vs public, that is anything which is done on the behalf of the Roman people). In tablinum the master of the house would run his business, receive different visitors, counter-parts, clients. Certain careers supposed an existence of a "downtown office", but the house was still always a the place of current affairs. Another kind of social and almost professional activity taking place at home was dinners/receptions: someone's status and career prospects were easily judged by whom the master could invite into his dinners and who invited him (in a certain way it is still relevant today). It's interesting to know that guests frequently received presents at the end of such dinners (yet another signification one can find for the Vth house). But these were not the only distributions of presents/receptions: the master would normally have a certain number of clients (relations socially inferior to him), which would normally come to his house to solve all kinds of affairs (reflected in astrology in a relationship of disposition); on certain occasion the master literally had an obligation to receive thesm/to give them something, like on certain religious holidays when a master had to share the meat of the sacrified animals. I'm not sure whether it is Martial (I guess so) who describes it with a lot of wit: the clients crowding in the patron's domus with their slaves and carrying their own pots to cook the given meat right there on place. So we kind of hold here the whole palette of significations for the Vth house: children, marriage, but also feast, music, pleasant time, even intercourse, presents, but also (as we can see from Hellenistic authors) career, social achievements, etc. It doesn't look very coherent if only listed in line, but it is so if you remember how it functioned. Now it's much easier to see the meaning of the significations of the XIth as the extravert twin of the Vth. In fact it implies all same things, but from a different perspective: from the perspective of a client. The XIth is that same House, but the house where are invited and where you go to get something and to do networking, that's where you hope to get help from a from a socially higher protector, that's where you do your best to improve your standing, etc. Hence we have some significations very close to those of the Vth house, but also some specific "help"/"protectors"/"promotion" oriented significations.

Well, sorry, I promise I won't do the same for all 12 houses Smile)) I just wanted a little illustration to back my point that I don't find the house signification arbitrary (given that we don't have just 12 equally un/important houses, but 4 angles which reflect the objective reality, and each angle have two zones pertaining to them).
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Mari



Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Posts: 56
Location: Paris

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops, sorry, now it made a rather big off-topic, if you'd like to continue on house significations, we can ask moderators to make a separate topic. If not, thanks a lot for your answer.

(P.S. if that is of any interest for you, I, in my personal analysis and observations, is still torn apart between the 3/9 and 5/11 axes)
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