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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Most Elevated Planet?
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jac



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 103

Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:48 am    Post subject: Most Elevated Planet? Reply with quote

I realize this is probably inconsequential compared to all the big heavies, but I've been scouring everything available online and am still hard-pressed to determine this.

I feel the Moon as much as Neptune, for good and for ill.

Does anyone have the definitive last word on which is the most elevated planet, and why, please?

Of course I'm interested in your thoughts on it, in general.

*Thanks!* ;)

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=k0qce8&s=9#.XF1TpaB7ncs
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi jac,

i mostly think of the most elevated planet as the planet closest to the midheaven degree! that is what i think of as the 'most elevated planet in the chart... hope this helps..
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jac



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James!

I thought so too, but then I read that some special consideration had to be made for the IC/MC demarcation (?)

I dunno.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jac,

perhaps some folks can do it from the ascendant degree and say one is more elevated based on it's relationship to the ascendant degree.. this goes into the concept of whole-sign houses and how the 10th whole sign, can be quite different to the 10th in placidus for example... either way, it is my impression most elevated is the planet closest to the midheaven degree.. cheers james
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jac



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks James. I understand the theory, but not the practice- if that makes any sense.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, i think i might be the same with you in this jac... i hear the ideas bandied around, but an not sure what is what.. generally i think the most elevated planet in a chart is like a type of guiding influence and energy that overshadows the whole chart... kind of like if their was a king in the land - it would be that planet... some people don't pay much attention to the king, and some do, but his presence has some influence on the way everything is carried out in the land of the king, or the chart of the person!!
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jac



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, commiserating is comforting. Sometimes I see my Neptune Sq Sun as a big, fat guy blocking my light, so it's good to know it's not "just me". I've considered that it may be inconsequential enough it gets ignored. On the other hand, I've read a handful of analyses that show it indicates, or at the very least underlines qualities (and less-than-qualities!)

Perhaps I'd best settle for the combination, though I think of it as sloppy astrology. Like hearing someone say "I'm on the cusp"...
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

these are the decisions and judgments that have to be made in astrology... it is complicated and made more complicated for a number of reasons.. this is one good rationale for ignoring the outer planets! personally i use them, but i think putting less emphasis on them is a good idea.. just how one does that is arbitrary... cheers james
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jac, see the last post on this Skyscript page by Martin Gansten:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8308&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60
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jac



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks James, I'm just not that advanced.

Thanks for your tip Therese, being nowhere near as advanced as the arguing participants, I guess I'll try a different house method.
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Paul
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Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jac

This is sort of a difficult one to answer, in part because the word 'elevated' might be understood in different ways when it comes to astrology.

Astronomically, a planet rises over the horizon toward the east and eventually sets on the horizon to the west. At some point in between that planets rises in the sky over the horizon until it reaches the highest point it can reach that day. If we think of elevation like this, then we can say that any planet which is at this point where it has reached the highest over the horizon it can go is therefore at the point where it's most elevated.

This point is the MC aka midheaven. At the MC, any planet is at the highest point it can reach in a given day.

However, the complication is that at any given time, the highest point of the ecliptic (i.e. the zodiac) is not at the MC - the MC is the highest point that degree of the ecliptic/zodiac can reach within a 24 hour period. But moment by moment, some other part of the zodiac could be higher than it - this is because the ecliptic/zodiac itself is appearing to gain and lose altitude throughout the day depending on what is rising.

The point which is 90º degrees from the ascendant is always, by its nature, the point furthest from the horizon - the ascendant is coincident with the horizon. So the 90º point is always the highest point of the ecliptic/zodiac for that moment in time.

What this amounts to is that any planet which is at this 90º point (which is coincident with the equal house 10th house cusp), is always the point of maximum elevation/altitude for that moment in time.

That said, for an individual planet's journey through the day, their own personal highest point will be attained when the degree that this planet occupies reaches the MC.

The confusion is in thinking that both describe the same thing. It's little tricky to understand why this is the case without understanding more about the mechanics of how the sky appears to move through the day, and the fact that the ecliptic/zodiac is at an angle to the direction of that movement.

If you want to understand it better, you can download stellarium, show the ecliptic and horizon, and animate it hour by hour through the day and watch the ecliptic appear to rise and fall in the sky.

In answer to your question then, in practice, any planet which is 90º from your ascendant is likely to be felt as a powerful and important planet - that planet is at the maximum altitude that is possible at that moment in time. A planet at the MC is more relative to the entire 24 hour cycle, and any planet at the MC is at the maximum altitude possible for that degree of the ecliptic throughout the day.

Both are therefore important.
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petosiris



Joined: 08 Oct 2017
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Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This point is the MC aka midheaven. At the MC, any planet is at the highest point it can reach in a given day.


Hellenistic authors like Ptolemy technically treat the ''The point which is 90º degrees from the ascendant'' as MC aka Midheaven, see 3.10 and 4.4 of the Tetrabiblos for an example of ''μεσουρανοῦντος ζῳδίου''.

Quote:
Both are therefore important.


Both may be important, but there is no denying that the earlier authors placed heavier emphasis on the tenth sign and equal house MC than their Medieval and Renaissance successors. It might be related to the moment of germination or fruition being more important than the day or month (there is also elevation by latitude for the planets besides the Sun).
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

petosiris wrote:

Hellenistic authors like Ptolemy technically treat the ''The point which is 90º degrees from the ascendant'' as MC aka Midheaven, see 3.10 and 4.4 of the Tetrabiblos for an example of ''μεσουρανοῦντος ζῳδίου''.


Well I think it's probably worth saying that my point isn't about what ancient authors did, but about contemporary astrological understanding - this isn't the traditional forum after all. I personally use both, and whilst I understand them subtly differently, I nevertheless use them both and find them both powerful and important. I actually think Hellenistic authors, broadly, equally found the MC as important, but it's not something I want to pursue here.

Quote:

Both may be important, but there is no denying that the earlier authors placed heavier emphasis on the tenth sign and equal house MC than their Medieval and Renaissance successors.


I don't think anyone was denying anything of the sort - mostly because nobody was talking about this issue here yet.
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petosiris



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Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think anyone was denying anything of the sort - mostly because nobody was talking about this issue here yet.


Actually you are, and I quote:

Quote:
I actually think Hellenistic authors, broadly, equally found the MC as important, but it's not something I want to pursue here.


Which is a false statement, broadly speaking.
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Petosiris

I do not know why you wish to be antagonistic to me. But nor do I really care.

Nobody mentioned Hellenistic anything until you posted, that you used my reply to your post where I say nobody was talking about it as evidence that people were talking about it is frankly absurd.

Have a good day. I hope the original poster gets value from the post I did make.

* edited to add:
I see in the thread that Therese linked that I have disagreed with Petosiris on the issue. Perhaps this explains things.
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