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Planetary War or Graha Yuddha
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:12 pm    Post subject: Planetary War or Graha Yuddha Reply with quote

Stefan posted under the chaturthamsha or D4 chart topic started by James a comment about planetary war...
Quote:
Her mercury is aspected by some malefics and is in same degree as jupiter...loosing the planetary war due to the size of jupiter over mercury.

This spurred me to post a new topic on the subject because planetary war is one of those concepts in Indian astrology (like many) that has more disagreement than agreement. I'm curious about how other practitioners approach it and what method works for them. Not sure I have a concrete methodology for Graha Yuddha at this time hence the post. This isn't a real active board so there might not be a lot of consensus or interest on the subject but here goes.

Planetary War doesn't come up a whole lot but does happen often enough to try and narrow it down as a principle.

Thought I would begin with the methodologies I am aware of and if you know of others please chime in and/or comment on the ones listed that jives with your experience or method.

Planetary war occurs when two planets are within one degree of each other, either in the same sign or in adjacent signs. Only five planets are considered Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. One of the following conditions determines the victor.

1. The winner is the brightest planet.

2. The winner has the greater declination.

3. The winner has a greater celestial latitude.

4. The winner has greater zodiacal longitude.

5. The winner has less zodiacal longitude.

6. Venus never loses. That is the first rule. If Venus is not involved, the planet with a more northern declination wins the war.

Number 6 is the most common I have come across and the one I was taught though not necessarily the method I follow.
Number 5 comes in a close second.

There are other more very complex methodologies that classify different types of planetary war as an expansion of the conjunction but I would like to avoid them for the present.

I would like to premise that the concept of planetary war certainly arose from the time of observational astronomy/astrology and therefore the brightness of the planets involved is a primary factor. There is certainly a "higher ground wins" sense to the logic of the above conditions except for the lower longitude one. Shadbala calcs for planetary war favors the lowest longitude to win, see note below.

Some questions:
Does planetary war apply if both planets are combust and lost in the glare of the Sun? Or is this grounds that no one wins?

Does it matter if the brighter planet or the one in less/more longitude is applying or separating?

Should the stronger of the two planets win?

Does a malefic trump (not Donald) a benefic?

Speed of the planets?

Or, is it just a redundant classical concept?

Note: Planetary war is one of the many factors considered in Shadbala calculations and in a nutshell considers that the warring planets have to be within 1 degree and the one with less longitude wins. The many various temporal strengths of both are subtracted and divided by the difference of the diameter or their discs, then the victors are added and the losers value is subtracted from the strength totals. (I think I got this right, if not correct my understanding).

Looking forward to comments.

Be well.
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi AJ

Good call for a thread about this controversial subject in Jyotish.

Below is the default principles in perhaps the most positively regarded professionally jyotish program "Shree Jyoti star" It goes by
*Highest declination and
*venus as winner in war.


In Shree jyoti star program the practial example here in your quote of my dyslexic wife mercury wins the war over jupiter by the higher declination. And the program gives mercury as winner, by these parameters.

By longitude ME is 11' 26 and Rx
JU is 11' 09
Which gives different results according to method used higher or lower longitude.

But the size of jupiter is bigger and this is what I go for.....

Why ?

Explain in later post....

(My view about this subject is not firmly set may be said...too much different
info by different astrologers).


Quote:
War/Yuddha
Planetary war is reported in the Avasthas table. This option is to determine the way planetary war is calculated. War occurs when two planets (not the luminaries or the nodes) are within one degree of each other. Many modern authors have a method based purely on the longitudes of the planets involved but I can find no ancient support for this. The ancients studied the sky and what they observed was the relative brightness and position. The planet to the North (above) was considered the winner unless it was competing with Venus that is so bright it generally overshadows the opposition. It is worth checking the declinations and brightness before declaring your verdict. Even if the planet to the North is competing with Venus, I find it still gets some extra power.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:

But the size of jupiter is bigger and this is what I go for.....
Why ?
Explain in later post....
(My view about this subject is not firmly set may be said...too much different
info by different astrologers).

Thanks for the detailed answer. Like yourself, my ideas are not firmly set as there are so many different positions. I have leaned towards the Venus always wins and declination north but that is what I was taught. I think there is more to it and also have additional thoughts on it. Look forward to your reasoning on your wife's case of a planetary war.
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Stefan



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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. I have great respect and affinity to the world renown astrologer Chakrapani Ullal. He is considered as one of the best. He died last year sadly. He also share the same spiritual Guru as I have. So It feels like having some deeper connection to his work, even if we never met.

He gave some principles he uses for Graha yuddha (planetary war) in his work to western Jyotishi Edith Hathaway which I also have much respect for, and have had some interaction with by mail some years ago.

She gives these principles in an article. I tend to use them, even if I have not made up my mind about the issue and is open to other possibilities.

http://www.edithhathaway.com/pdf/Graha_Yuddha.pdf

I think she did a quite good job in her research..

In these parameters jupiter generally wins over mercury by it's size.
Which seems to be the case in my wife's dyslexic experience.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aj / stefan,

aj - thanks for bringing this up! i have seen it mentioned, and i was under the misunderstanding perhaps, that it was something slightly different then this, but i am glad you are bringing it up... i was trying to understand it in relation to bransons chart with regard to moon- saturn in opp to jupiter, but it looks like it is irrelevant based on your criteria here...

perhaps it is relevant to trumps chart though, so can either of you two say what planet wins in trumps chart - venus or saturn? i am thinking saturn, but i think this way based on the strength of an outer planet, compared to an inner one... however i might be on the wrong path with my idea and what they mean by all this.. i appreciate you bringing this up aj and thank you for your reply to ganesha on the other thread too!
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
perhaps it is relevant to trumps chart though, so can either of you two say what planet wins in trumps chart - venus or saturn?


To qualify as in war the planets should be within 1 degree of longitude to each other.
Trump's venus and saturn is 1'55 from each other. So not in war.
Otherwise it would have been an interesting case i think

best wishes
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
Ok. I have great respect and affinity to the world renown astrologer Chakrapani Ullal. He is considered as one of the best. He died last year sadly. He also share the same spiritual Guru as I have. So It feels like having some deeper connection to his work, even if we never met.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is this Srila Prabhupada? I have great respect for this great saint though I have not studied his teachings in depth. My own Guru was a great devotee of Krishna.
Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya!
One of my favorite chants of this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ep4Y16cWeg
Thanks for the link to Edith's information on graha yuddha, I will study it and comment further.
James: I will remit separately on DT's chart.
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Stefan



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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aj

I liked the chant, very sweet. I use to chant it occasionally, but in Krishna das kirtan style mostly.

Swami Nityananda from Ganeshpuri was chakrapani Ullal's root Guru ( It'sgurupurnima today btw).
He is generally considered as one of the greatest yogis and saints in modern time in India. Very eccentric, an avadhuta who transcended everything lived in trees sometimes but followed by thousands. Countless stories there is of his yogic powers who used to heal and, miracles did occur constantly in his prescence.



http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/Nityanan/Nityanan.htm

.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
Aj

I liked the chant, very sweet. I use to chant it occasionally, but in Krishna das kirtan style mostly.
Swami Nityananda from Ganeshpuri was chakrapani Ullal's root Guru ( It'sgurupurnima today btw).
He is generally considered as one of the greatest yogis and saints in modern time in India. Very eccentric, an avadhuta who transcended everything lived in trees sometimes but followed by thousands. Countless stories there is of his yogic powers who used to heal and, miracles did occur constantly in his prescence.
http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/Nityanan/Nityanan.htm

Yes, interesting synchronicity, Guru Purnima.
Thanks for the clarification, I thought it was Srila because quite awhile back in the early 80's many folks I knew that were into ISKCON were desperately seeking readings from Chakrapani. Not sure why now that I think back on it, somehow I thought he did a reading for Srila Prabhupada some years before, but I believe this is mistaken as I recall it to mind in more detail now. Could be more due the fact he was one of the few notable Indian astrologers in the West back then. ISKON folks went a bit overboard then to be Indiaphiles and of course to have your chart Hindu chart done was all the rage. Shame the old man died in '77, would have liked to have a darshan of him.

Such an interesting contrast. My Indian friends tried so hard not to be Indian and here was a bunch of WASP kids trying to be what they were not too.

My astrological parampara is Ayyala Somayajulu Ganapathi Sastry.
Be well.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Quote:
My astrological parampara is Ayyala Somayajulu Ganapathi Sastry.

Parampara = Tradition or lineage
Ayyala Somayajulu Ganapathi Sastry (Ganapati Muni as I understand?) died in 1936. Who carried on the tradition, so can you tell us who was your guru/teacher?

Stefan wrote:
Quote:
Swami Nityananda from Ganeshpuri was chakrapani Ullal's root Guru

So it's Nityananda --->Swami Muktananda--->Chakrapani (astrologer). Is this correct?
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Fri Jul 19, 2019 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Stefan



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Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.shantimandir.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Chakrapani-Ullal-Tribute.pdf
Quote:
Chakrapani Ullal, a renowned Vedic astrologer from South India, was a lifelong devotee of Bhagawan Nityananda
and Baba Muktananda. He had been a devotee of Bhagawan Nityananda since the age of seven



[/quote]So it's Nityananda --->Swami Muktananda--->Chakrapani (astrologer). Is this correct?
[quote]

Yes, correct....
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
Quote:
Therese wrote:
So it's Nityananda --->Swami Muktananda--->Chakrapani (astrologer). Is this correct?

Stefan replied:
Yes, correct....

Thank you, Stefan, and for the link to the tribute article. From the article:

Quote:
Dr. David Frawley referred to Chakrapani as “the father of Vedic astrology in the western world.” In 2001, Chakrapani was named “Jyotish Sagara” (lit. Ocean of Astrology) by the Indian Council of Astrological Sciences.

I attended Chakrapani's workshops in San Francisco when I lived in the area, but I can't place the decade. Probably the 1990s. I remember that my impression was that he worked from what might be called an "intuitive stream of consciousness", meaning that what he said made perfect sense in relation to the chart under discussion. But I wasn't sure it could be applied in the same way to other birth charts. But this is probably the way astrology in general works with clients anyway. Only intuition can narrow down the multiple possibilities of planetary relationships.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
AJ wrote:
Quote:
My astrological parampara is Ayyala Somayajulu Ganapathi Sastry.

Parampara = Tradition or lineage
Ayyala Somayajulu Ganapathi Sastry (Ganapati Muni as I understand?) died in 1936. Who carried on the tradition, so can you tell us who was your guru/teacher?

Sri Surya Murthy (1912-1989).
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AJ



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Posted: Fri Jul 19, 2019 8:16 pm    Post subject: Edith Hathaway’s take on Graha Yuddha Reply with quote

Edith Hathaway’s take on Graha Yuddha
Some Observations...

I’ve extracted the following determinants of which planet is the winner in a planetary war from Edith Hathaway's article on Graha Yuddha: Testing the Parameters of Astrology and Astronomy By Edith Hathaway (see source note below). I thought I would comment on a few of them as there are some inconsistencies from my point of view:

“The winner of the Graha Yuddha is dependent on these factors, in descending order:
1) Size and influence of the planet.
2) Effulgence, or brightness.
3) Speed of orbital motion.
4) If the victorious planet (as determined by factors # 1 through 3 above) is also situated north of the defeated planet, by either celestial longitude, declination, or latitudes – but especially by declination – then it is also usually the decisive winner. However, the winner may also be to the south.
5) Mars is a special exception, being generally the loser in Graha Yuddha, even when it is situated further north, or is bigger or temporarily faster than the other planet. And as the planet of war, it does not lose easily! Mars as the vanquished planet in Graha Yuddha can cause particular havoc. “

Her first and most important rule is out of place in this context and also doesn't make sense to me in the way that she applies it. If you read her situational section just below the above criteria,
“...what happens most of the time in Graha Yuddha”
1) Saturn wins most often due to its greater influence. With its multiple rings, it spans a greater distance than Jupiter, even if Jupiter has greater mass. In addition, as planet of Karma, Saturn dominates over Jupiter, planet of Dharma.
[This philosophical point can be disputed, Dharma rightly applied, overcomes or burns Karma. “Even he with the worst of karma who ceaselessly meditates on Me quickly loses the effects of his past bad actions. Becoming a high-souled being, he soon attains perennial peace. Arjuna, know this for certain: the devotee who puts his trust in Me never perishes!” Bhagavad Gita, IX, 30-31]
2) Jupiter wins over Venus by its size, even though Venus is brighter than Jupiter. Other than our Sun & Moon, Venus is the brightest object in the sky, as seen from earth.

Further down she goes on to say under a Summary of general principles,
“Summary of general principles: On the top level, Saturn can conquer the other four planets by virtue of its orb of influence and its size. Saturn possesses the largest and most complex ring system of any planet”….
…”Below Saturn, Jupiter has advantage by its size, winning out over the remaining planets except for Saturn. On the next level down, Venus has advantage by virtue of its effulgence, winning out over Mercury and Mars. On the lowest rung of influence, Mercury has advantage over Mars due to its speed. Thus, Mars is the one planet conspicuously without advantage at any of these levels.... “

Graha Yuddha is an ancient concept appearing in many early Jyotish classics that with little imagination is clearly based on observational interpretation. It's very clear that Edith Hathaway is using modern astronomical discoveries unknown to the ancients for this her main determination of the winner in Graha Yuddha. What is even more puzzling is that Hathaway puts this modern fact ahead of the ancient primary determiner of victory, apparent magnitude (Hathaway describes as effulgence, or brightness).

In the Suryasiddhanta*, the averaged visual diameters (more properly angular diameter) of the planets were not much more than an arc minute in diameter for the Tara Grahas**, or “star planets,” which was much the same as the fixed stars. The relative and changing brightness of the planets is one of the features along with their changeable path against the fixed stars in the heavens that define them as “wanderers” or planets in ancient times. Pre-telescopic societies had no idea of the true sizes (mass or diameter) of the planets relying only on relative visual brightness. Even if the diameter of a planet is a true criterion for judging which planet wins in planetary war I call into serious question using the modern understanding of this as a postulate of planetary war since it has no foundation in traditional astrological practice. To invoke the rings of Saturn to trump Jupiter the largest planet seems odd too since other than with a telescope this is completely unknown before 1600. It took decades after Galileo in 1616 to resolve that the extra stuff around Saturn was indeed a ring system (Huygens, 1655). This is long after the classical Jyotish texts were written.

It is Hathaway’s first primary consideration using the physical diameter for planetary war that I stumble over preventing me from accepting Edith Hathaway’s method. Further, she claims this principle is,
“…also consistent with most of the classics, especially the text given later on from the Brihat Samhita by Varahamihira.”
I beg to differ. The primary criterion of a planet's diameter as presented by Hathaway is untenable as being consistent with the ancient texts since this was unknown to them. All the ancients could observe was the apparent magnitude between the “Starry Grahas” Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn as pointed out above.

It seems to me Hathaway has arbitrarily added to the top of the ancient list the modern discoveries of the physical diameter of the planets as the most important criteria for determining which planet wins a planetary war.

Perhaps this is a valid rule that she has discovered but it flies in the face of the traditional viewpoint. This major fault in Jyotish logic calls into question the whole of her method to determine the winner in Graha Yuddha.

The other point on her list that bothers me is number 5,
“ 5) Mars is a special exception, being generally the loser in Graha Yuddha, even when it is situated further north, or is bigger or temporarily faster than the other planet. And as the planet of war, it does not lose easily! Mars as the vanquished planet in Graha Yuddha can cause particular havoc. “ (Hathaway 2010)

Putting aside Hathaway’s questionable first criteria for declaring a victor in planetary war, I don’t see why Mars should be “generally the loser” as it can be equal in brightness to Jupiter and often outshines Saturn and Mercury. Venus, of course, is the brightest heavenly body besides the Sun and Moon and in most Graha Yuddha systems is the victor.

Another inconsistent statement follows the first, “...as the planet of war, it does not lose easily!” but yet Hathaway just stated before that Mars is “generally the loser”

I’ve presented my main reasons I have serious doubts about Edith Hathaway's method of determining the victor in Graha Yuddha, or planetary war.

Notes:
* The Surya Siddhanta is the name of a Sanskrit treatise in Indian astronomy from the late 4th-century or early 5th-century CE.
** Tara Grahas or also Vakri Grahas are those planets of the Solar System other than the Sun and the Moon that appear to retrograde (move backward).

Reference:
Graha Yuddha: Testing the Parameters of Astrology and Astronomy By Edith Hathaway (Copyright © 2003, Revised & expanded 2010)

Bhagavad Gita, IX, 30-31
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Quote:
I’ve presented my main reasons I have serious doubts about Edith Hathaway's method of determining the victor in Graha Yuddha, or planetary war.

Thank you, AJ, for your detailed critique of Edith Hathaway's article. I'm so glad you took the time to analyze her article because it bothered me so much that I never finished reading it. Her article is just another example of combining ancient and contemporary principles without really clearing up the difference between the two. And...sigh...this is what is happening to India's tradition in the west. And I suppose it's happening in India as well based on various sources I've seen in recent years.

However,...another topic....way back in the beginning of the astrological use of the twelve sign zodiac, it's obvious that much east/west mixing occurred. But India settled on basic principles and techniques that were carried through the centuries, but are now being changed and influenced by the thinking of modern astrologers.
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