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Saturn with Pluto a good lover?
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 95

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:13 pm    Post subject: Saturn with Pluto a good lover? Reply with quote

Someone asked me today to do a love horary for them, and the quesited was Saturn conjunct Pluto. I told the quesited already has someone because Venus is conjunct Saturn and they both were in the turned 12th of the quesited.

I am not posting the horary chart but if you want me to, I can. I didn't make this thread to ask for a reading, just made to discuss what kind of a lover Saturn in Capricorn conjunct Pluto would be?

I do horary charts for myself, but I never really cared much what planet signified the quesited because I didn't think it really meant anything. I am a noob so I could be totally wrong and I am probably missing something very important in reading a chart.

While I was talking to the querent today, she said he is romantic, adventurous, loves traveling, is a good cook, and shy. None of this sounds like Saturn.
However, when I looked at his natal chart, he had a Scorpio stellium. Now it makes sense why Saturn is conjunct Pluto in the horary.

Like I said, I don't pay much attention to the planets that signify the querent or quesited. This is the first chart I noticed this, and I am curious what kind of lover is Saturn conjunct Pluto in Capricorn. With both Moon and Venus in Scorpio in his Natal, I think his relationships will be very intense. But romantic?

If anyone needs a chart, just look at the current planets in the sky. It's today's chart with Leo rising and Aquarius on the descendant.
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johannes susato



Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Saturn with Pluto a good lover? Reply with quote

Jupiterrising wrote:

I am not posting the horary chart but if you want me to, I can. I didn't make this thread to ask for a reading, just made to discuss what kind of a lover Saturn in Capricorn conjunct Pluto would be?

Please, post the chart anyway, Jupiterrising. Very Happy
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 95

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will post it, but I will have to tell you the question if I post it, and if I tell you the question I will also have to give the context. I didn't want to tell the whole story, but since you asked...

The querent already knew that the guy is taken. Her question was not about wanting a relationship with the guy. (I didn't write this in my first post because I wanted to keep that post simple, more general)

The question is: He is the kind of guy every girl would want, I want to know what is his type of girl.

Because the question is about the type of girl he likes and also describes him as someone every girl likes, I looked at who the significator is, and its description physically and/or personality wise. But normally I do not check this. I think in this particular question, the signficator description mattered, but it probably isn't such an important criteria for reading a chart otherwise. But that's just my amateur opinion.




We both knew that he is taken. I think the Venus conjunct him should describe his type. Venus in Capricorn doesn't seem very interesting to me, and the querent actually agreed.
The problem was that his male significator Sun was the querent's primary ruler, so we can't use Sun as his co significator to get more information.
However, the Sun is at late degrees of Aquarius and will move to Pisces soon, which means querent will move on soon. So I told her, she will move on in couple months and it wont matter whether he is the perfect guy or not. Moon will sextile Mars from Mars' fall and I think Sun will catch up with Mars too when it changes sign. I told her there might be another guy, but she may not be interested in him. Regardless she is moving on, and that's all that matters. She didn't ask about a potential relationship with either this guy or another guy, so I think there is no need to look for another guy in this chart.

Coming back to his significator, I don't think it fits the querents description.
So I checked his natal chart and he had a stellium in Scorpion including Venus and Moon. Perhaps his natal chart describes him better. But this is a horary question, so the horary chart should answer this too..
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 900

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is he prefers submissive, materialistic and young/beautiful, well kept women and likes to control, if the combo of Saturn conjunct Pluto with Venus in Cap is any indication. He also may have mental health issues -classical indication of Saturn in the 6th. For example, he could be emotionally abusive. If he is a coworker, then that is probably not true, though and he could be in the 6th to show their relationship. After now reading your description of his Scorpio stellium, I definitely see where he would be controlling and probably obsessive/jealous. Capricorn can also be more likely to be devoted to one person, as can Scorpio. Scorpios obviously love a challenge. I tend to attract them a lot, even though I personally am not attracted to that type and I have Venus/Mars in Aries opp Pluto, so I am definitely a "challenge." They can even like head games pretty much.

The perfect example of a woman represented by Venus in Cap with Pluto is Britney Spears, if that helps. It lords her chart.

The thing with Sun-Saturn combo is that Sun is life-affirming and social/cares about people, whereas Saturn is typically the opposite. I don't care what sign Sun is in either - this is the nature of the planet. I have Saturn ruling the 7th in natal and I speak from experience that Saturn lording over this house on an energy level is extremely difficult and suggests pain and disappointment, and more often than not rejection. Even when positive, it is difficult and painful on some level and there is distancing between people, either literally or on an emotional level. From my own chart, i know I see Capricorn attraction to a man as someone strong, ambitious, a workaholic, haughty, but also likely self absorbed and emotionally hurtful. Women certainly love these types, though! It is odd that women are drawn to men like this, since it would be difficult to have emotional satisfaction with such a person. If it is purely physical, then perhaps it would be fine though. If someone is seeking a man who is already taken and is not showing interest, I think the bigger question is why, though? If there is a need for approval from those who are not interested, it could stem from some self esteem issues that some therapy might help with.

I usually think of Capricorn energies like Mr. Darcy, if that helps. With Pluto though I think there is something darker indicated, especially with Venus. He would seem obsessively controlling.

Also, the Moon is applying to a rather malefic Mars in the 9th. Any ideas why this might be?

If you have his natal chart, wouldn't looking at that be a better indication of what he is attracted to? Since he is showing zero interest to the querent, my guess is he is not attracted to her, but synastry and composite info might help support that or not.


Last edited by Tanit3333 on Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 95

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is Mars malefic here? Just because it's Mars?

Mars exalts Moon. Moon in Mars triplicity. Sun when changes signs will enter Mars triplicity. Looks like a potential new boyfriend to me.

She knew he is taken. She is not wanting a relationship with him. She is heartbroken that she can't have him because he is taken. It's not a casual question like what type of girls does he like. I think the question stems from pain and disappointment that she found someone so perfect but can't have him, and is not even sure he would choose her if he were single.


Last edited by Jupiterrising on Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 900

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mars is malefic because it is in detriment and in a day chart (out of sect makes it more fiery and difficult classically).
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 95

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know what 9th house has to do with this chart. The guy asked about is not foreign, not spiritual or anything 9th house related. I just assumed Mars is another guy.

I never pay attention to malefics and benefics. I only look for receptions and aspects in any chart. I am learning new things..
How important are these? Is it a major criteria for reading charts?

His natal chart he has Sun, Moon and Venus in Scorpio. Since the querent doesn't know his time of birth, I don't know which house this placement is.
I can't post his chart for privacy reasons. I don't want to violate someone elses' privacy.

Why do you think the querent thinks he is perfect. Just a matter of personal taste? Or is it the intensity of Pluto?
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
She knew he is taken. She is not wanting a relationship with him. She is heartbroken that she can't have him because he is taken. It's not a casual question like what type of girls does he like. I think the question stems from pain and disappointment that she found someone so perfect but can't have him, and is not even sure he would choose her if he were single.


I am very sorry for her then! I am not sure how to help with the subject matter or question but from the way he is represented, I doubt very much he is perfect.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to get going to work but regarding viewing someone as "perfect," sometimes it can be something as simple as having someone's Sun in their 7th house. The nodes can also pull someone in, such as hitting their 7th house planet. I can only speak generally without seeing someone's chart. Sometimes people have something in their own chart that draws them towards those they cannot have, especially if they are already attractive themselves and find those that chase them monotonous and want something they perceive as different. If they have a lot of Neptune on top of that then they may be further pulled into fantasies about people rather than wanting something real, so they fall for those that they probably know deep down are not acheiveavle.
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 95

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

The reason I made this thread is to check whether horary significators reflect a persons personality and character. In my charts particulary the significators have not described me or the other person accurately most of the time. But, I have had questions were my significator does describe my personality somewhat accurately and sometimes the quesiteds too. So I never took the significator description too seriously. Then again, I have said many times, I am not an expert. Everything I have learned is from my own charts and charts I have made for freinds.

So I spoke to the querent today and she still says the same things about him. He is very charming, romantic, intensely loyal to his girlfriend, very caring and demonstrative of his affections for her.

Without looking at his Natal chart, If we only look at the horary chart, he is signified by Saturn in Capricorn conjunct Pluto and Venus but Venus is her. So his personality should be shown by just Saturn conjunction Pluto.
Saturn is not a romantic at all. Maybe the Pluto conjunction gives him the intensity and plutonian depth, which woman find she finds attractive perhaps. She is not the only one attracted to him, literally every girl in her office thinks this guy is charming.

The question was what kind of girls does he like, she asked this because she thinks his current girlfriend is quite plain. Querent thinks the girlfriend is the controlling one in the relationship and no matter how much he does for her, it seems like it's never enough for her.
Where does this show up in horary? Venus conjunction Pluto? But Saturn is sandwiched in between. I am really curious to know what shows the womans personality in this chart.

I don't know what kind of a woman can control a man with 3 personal planets in Scorpio: Sun, Moon and Venus. His Venus and Moon are both in Scorpio so perhaps he likes the controlling kind.
Nobody has the girlfriends date of birth, she doesn't tell the year she was born. So I can't see her natal chart.

Querent is 23 yrs old. The quesited is 27 yrs old and people think his girlfriend could be the same age as him.

Now the plot twist:
The querents friend thinks the man swings both ways. The querent disagrees. Querent thinks that most girls think he is gay because he doesn't show any interest in any woman. She thinks the girls are delusional. She thinks he is devoted to his plain Jane girlfriend, so he doesn't show any interest in any woman. But the querents friend swears she saw him getting too close to another man.

Querents friend asked a new queston

Is he gay or bisexual?

This question was asked yesterday, little later than the previous question. I didn't post it because I didn't want to. But since we are discussing the horary I might just post that too.

Aries on the descendant, Mars in Taurus: Mars is ruled by Venus and exalts Moon. So he likes women.
His male significator for sexuality Sun is in masculine sign Aquarius, will soon change signs to Pisces ruled by Neptune and exalts Venus. So I think he is straight. But we can see it another way too. Aquarius and Pisces both could mean he is fluid. Especially in Pisces, because Neptune dissolves.

I am still leaning towards straight because Horary doesn't use Neptune as a ruler. But then again, in a question like this we don't see the future events so the Sun changing signs to exalt Venus should not be taken into consideration, I guess? If that's the case then Sun in Aquarius is not so straight. What do you think?

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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reread my post and realized I didn't exactly say what I really wanted to say.
In short, I think what I really wanted to say is that I think the horary significator doesn't best describe the quesited or his girlfriend.

I think it describes them to a certain extent but not everything. But maybe somebody else will see all the things the querent describes about the guy and his girlfriend in the horary...

Maybe the girlfriend is not just Venus in Cap but she is represented by Venus conjunct Saturn AND Pluto in Cap. I don't know about Brittneys personality. I think Brittany is sweet not controlling. JT is the reason for her downfall and mental health issues right? I don't know.

The quesited is not like Darcy at all, from what the querent describes him.
If we take Venus conjunt Saturn as also a description of Saturns personality then maybe that shows the romantic side?
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The question was what kind of girls does he like, she asked this because she thinks his current girlfriend is quite plain. Querent thinks the girlfriend is the controlling one in the relationship and no matter how much he does for her, it seems like it's never enough for her.
Where does this show up in horary? Venus conjunction Pluto? But Saturn is sandwiched in between. I am really curious to know what shows the womans personality in this chart.


Maybe the querent is not very objective? I am a traditionalist and I view Venus as one of the inferiors. To call her controlling of the most superior planet is pretty unlikely. Saturn tends to not yield to other planets, they yield to Saturn, especially a Saturn in domicile and conjunct Pluto. Maybe the chart is inaccurate but maybe the querent is also not aware of what the relationship is really like. When you ask a question of someone's significant other, they are almost always conjunct that person, so Venus here tends to fit that bill. Just because the querent finds this woman plain does not mean the man does also.

I do believe horary represents people physically and their personality, etc. (or their relationship), but in a very simplistic way. A natal chart is going to give better information on what they find attractive. As you already said, their chart would also likely indicate them as controlling, which does not fit what the querent says (nor this horary).
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course querent is not objective. Anyone in love will not be objective. She knows certian things, that's why she says the girlfriend is demanding and manipulative too. Especially the part where she says "no matter how much he does for her, it's never enough", she told me why thinks like that, and even I felt the same way.
As for demanding and controlling. She said a few things, I will share one of the things she said. She told me an incident where the girlfriend felt insulted and she literally made him cry. She said the next day when he was in the office, it looked like either he had been crying all night or he was hungover. With that many planets in Scorpio, maybe he cries easily. I don't know. She is not the only one discussing this with me, her friends from the mans office are discussing too, so even if she is not objective the others are objective.

Astrology is very complex. The stereotypical definitions of planets and their expressions don't apply to everyone. For example I have Uranus in the 7th house and none of the descriptions fit me. The only thing that fits me is that I am very happy and content being single. But when I am in a realtionship, my relationships are nothing like the typical Uranus in 7th relationship. My relationships are serious, all consuming and intense. They are intense even though I don't have Pluto anywhere near my descendant, nor does it apply to the ruler of my descendant. I don't jump in and jump out of relationships. I am the first one to break up, but I am not the instigator. I think Astrology shows the possibilities but doesn't exactly describe. Horary though, like I said, most of the time it doesn't describe me at all. You could say my charts are not accurate because I make too many charts or whatnot, but this is not my chart. This is a friends chart.
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my perspective, it sounds like the querent is jumping to a lot of conclusions here. He is crying or appears to be that way, so her assumptions are that the girlfriend caused this? Does she have proof? He could very well have just had a hangover, or could even be an alcoholic, for all she knows. She does not sound in love, she sounds obsessed, and in an unhealthy way. I know any psychologist would have a lot of questions for her about this entire relationship and want to figure out why she would devote so much of her thoughts and energy into an unavailable person.
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Jupiterrising



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Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you even read the post properly? It seems to me you just want to attack the querent. You've been judging her from the very beginning. Have you never experienced unreciprocated love? How can you not have empathy for someone?
I have seen querents ask unethical qustions like will he divorce his wife. In most of these cases the women are already involved with a married man. This question is no where close to that. It's such an innocent question and you keep spinning it as something evil.
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