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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3425
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:00 pm    Post subject: personal question - Reply with quote

this has to do with the placement of my moon in sidereal... the many systems, or what are called - heaven knows what in vedic - fagan, lahari, raman and etc. etc. - will result in a different sign position for my moon.... as it happens i have the moon very close to the ascendant - about 4-5 degrees above it.. in some of the systems, the moon ends up in a different sign then the ascendant.. in a majority of the systems, it remains in the same sign..

another byproduct of it being in the system where it is in the last degree of a sign different from the ascendant degree is it becomes the planet called the atmakaraka...

with this much distinction and variety, one would think it would be easy to figure it out, but i can't figure it out on my own... if anyone wants to try to get a handle on it, i am happy to share my birth data.. march 29, 1956, toronto, canada - 1050pm... let me know if you can figure out a way of shedding more light on it for me.. the final depositor of my chart becomes venus in taurus, if the moon is in libra... if the moon is in scorpio - mars takes on greater importance...i would say both planets have an important role in my life.. i am unclear how i can figure this out, but it is fun to try!! thanks - james
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carriere.francois



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
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Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James,

Stick with a Chittapaksha ayanamsa, that Spica in the middle of the zodiac or 180:00. It's traditional and safe, for jyotish or western sidereal astrology, although western astrologers would prefer Fagan SVP. Given this, your Ascendant is located in 2:20 sidereal Scorpio. It also safe to use whole sign House system, hence Moon remains in the first. In mundo, it's also under the the cusp, in the first house (Campanus Mundoscope). Jupiter is Atmakaraka.

Best regards,
François
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Regards,
François CARRIÈRE
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the ayanamsa I'm posting here some notes from a paper I'm writing at the moment. Then in another post I may discuss James' Moon.

Ayanamsas and Sidereal Zodiacs
In the 20th and 21st centuries the two sidereal zodiacs that have had the most scrutiny are the ayanamsa chosen by the Indian government (the Lahiri zodiac) and what has come to be called the Babylonian zodiac favored by Cyril Fagan and astrologers of the western Sidereal school (Aldebaran and Antares at 15 degrees of Taurus/Scorpio).

Only a small handful of vocal and committed astrologers use Cyril Fagan’s “Babylonian” (SVP for synetic vernal point) ayanamsa compared to the thousands who now routinely use the Lahiri (Chittapaksha) ayanamsa. The Lahiri value is the only ayanamsa that has received a great deal of astronomical cross cultural study (including prominent western sources such as Ptolemy) by a team of academic researchers.

The 296 page report of this research is included in the government publication, Report of the Calendar Reform Committee (1955). This report is now in PDF format online. No accepted academic research supports the “Babylonian” SVP ayanamsa, and no Babylonian text has ever been found that notes longitudes for Aldebaran and Antares.

This said and done, I use the Krishnamurti ayanamsa myself (6 minutes different than Lahiri, and in this case L or K is significant for James' Moon because Lahiri places the Moon in Libra while Krishnamurti places it in Scorpio. (More later on this.)
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two points regarding James' Moon that will be true no matter what ayanmsa is used:

The lunar mansion will be Jupiter-ruled Vishakha which runs from 20 degrees of Libra to 3 Scorpio 20.

No matter what sign the Moon is in, it's still closely conjunct the ascendant. I don't accept whole sign houses for the house position of planets, but use the Raman-Vehlow system which places the ascendant degree at the center of each 30 degree house. Each house runs from about 20 degrees of one sign to 20 degrees of the next sign in the Lahiri or K chart. (Adding 15 degrees to the ascendant degree of4 Scorpio 46-K or 4 Scorpio40-L)

Moon in Scorpio would emphasize the conjunction with Saturn's psychology. The Saturn influence would be strong. Saturn is also the 3rd house lord, so we are getting a strong 1st to 3rd connection.

Moon's degree is critical in any case as the last degree of a sign and the first degree of a sign are critical, considered a weakness in India's astrology. One position is "old age" while the other is a state of infancy.

So the question is: Does Venus or Mars disposit the Moon? Venus places emphasis in the 7th while Mars places emphasis in the 3rd (can relate to musicians since the 3rd is the house of hands and arms--the arts and manual skills.) The 3rd is also the house of brothers and possibly skill in sports. But then Mars is also the ascendant lord in the 3rd. Moon in Scorpio would only make the connection stronger.

Venus has to be strong as well since it aspects the Ascendant and Moon. But is the 7th house more important than the 3rd? Moon in Scorpio has the trine from Uranus in the 9th. Venus, Uranus, Pluto, Saturn all influence the Moon in Scorpio. Since I've found the Krishnamurti ayanamsa more accurate (in timing) than Lahiri, I'll vote for Moon in Scorpio. Generally it doesn't matter much if an astrologer uses L or K, but in this case it's important.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

francois and therese

thank you both! i am unfamiliar with Chittapaksha ayanamsa and it doesn't look like it is on my solar fire program as an option either, unless it is under a different name..

i realize the lunar mansions might be helpful on this... in reading about these areas in prash trivedis book on the topic, i have yet to formulate a viewpoint on it all..

therese, thanks for elaborating on all this... many of the comments you share, i have been reading about already, but i appreciate your greater insight into it all..

as to the question of what is stronger - 7th venus, or 3rd mars and the 1st-3rd connection with moon saturn, if moon is in scorpio.. i have often thought it interesting in tropical how the moon rules the 9th and saturn rules the 3rd and how they are in some sort of wide conjunction... i am not clear on how rahu rolls into all this as well and still trying to figure it all out, according the indian literature i can get my hands on..

i see krishnamurti ayanamsa will also move my navamsha moon into the beginning of cancer, from gemini where it is off the lahari ayanamsa... i really ought to be able to figure this out over the course of time..

one thing is certain - astrology is very much a mercury art... venus and mars are stronger planets in my chart in some obvious respects... it might take me a while to figure this out, but i appreciate both of your input into my question/s here.. i suppose you can see the challenge i face in trying to understand it all better.. even the concept of what exactly the Atmakaraka is, might help me in this regard as you note francois.. thank you both!
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James

Chittapaksha = Lahiri.

Yes, cases can be built for Moon in libra as well as scorpio.

Libra is sign related to art and music. Dispositor venus in own sign taurus with imaginative ketu.

If reading the chart from the moon lagna libra,
we get 3rd house ruler jupiter exalted in 10th house. A combination for career in arts.

(This combination is already occuring in the chart, if using Arudha lagna.
Arudha lagna is Leo. From arudha lagna Leo venus is 3rd ruler placed in 10th house.)

From Leo Arudha lagna moon is in libra 3rd house as well.

My software shri Jyotis star gives Leo as arudha lagna, as ketu is the coruler of scorpio, and is in this case stronger than mars.

I think libra moon.


Last edited by Stefan on Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
i am unfamiliar with Chittapaksha ayanamsa and it doesn't look like it is on my solar fire program as an option either, unless it is under a different name..

Chitrapaksha Ayanamsha is slightly different from the Lahiri and Krishnamurti because it is based on the exact astronomical position of Spica (the star Chitra). Currently, the difference is only about 1 arc minute from Lahiri so the difference is negligible for most purposes.
Cheers
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, if you were trying to choose between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs, it would be difficult because the same signs are on the cusps of houses with Scorpio rising. The tropical/sidereal sign overlap happens in the early degrees of sidereal signs and the late degrees of tropical signs.

Yes, sometimes the Lahiri ayanamsa is referred to as "Chitrapaksha" since Spica is the reference star. Chitrapaksha is the old Indian term used for the zodiac marked by Spica at the Virgo-Libra junction. The point opposite marks zero Aries. The Krishnamurti ayanamsa moves Spica a little less than 6 minutes into Libra. It's interesting that there is a clause in the 1955 Indian Calendar Report that says the ayanamsa value should be periodically checked, and over time adjusted if necessary.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Quote:
Chitrapaksha Ayanamsha is slightly different from the Lahiri and Krishnamurti because it is based on the exact astronomical position of Spica (the star Chitra). Currently, the difference is only about 1 arc minute from Lahiri so the difference is negligible for most purposes.

Would this one minute increase or decrease the Lahiri ayanamsa? That is, would the one minute increase or decrease the longitudes of planets in charts?
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
AJ wrote:
Would this one minute increase or decrease the Lahiri ayanamsa? That is, would the one minute increase or decrease the longitudes of planets in charts?

Increases.
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok James some more from Jaimini type of astrology.

.
(c) "If Moon is alone in Karakamsha or in 5th from Karakamsha, the native become a musician."

The karakamsha in your chart is gemini (if libra moon as atmakaraka). 5th house from karakamsha gemini is moon in libra.

So summarising: Libra

* Moon in sign of music
* Reading from moon lagna... 3rd house ruler is placed in 10th.
* From Arudha lagna moon in 3rd in libra.
* Jaimini sutras: Moon in 5th from Karakamsha.

(Karakamsha is Atmakaraka in it's navamsha sign, read from the normal chart.
So moon AK in navamsha sign = Gemini.
Gemini in normal chart = karakamsha sign.).

Sam Geppi on karakamsha talking about this specific yoga and his own musician experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EeR16BA3vDU

Article about same thing...

https://www.futurepointindia.com/articles/research-articles/karakamsha.aspx

[/quote]


Last edited by Stefan on Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:35 am; edited 3 times in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ - thanks.. i am a bit confused then by francois comment who first brought this up... lahari moon is at 29 libra 58... 1 minute is now 29 libra 59 but it sounded as thought francois got the moon into scorpio with it.. 1 minute here and 1 minute there and the next thing you know, your moon is now in scorpio! rhyme for a song, lol.. with krisnamurti - moon gets into scorpio - but both lahari and krisnamurti give a 4 degree scorpio ascendant.. at any rate - thank you for the comment about 1 minute difference...

therese - yes.. you are correct... i can get confused in either system, lol... i am looking at everything late in the sign, or for the most part - early in the sign.. i am either really old, or really young, but nothing in between! thanks for taking a look at all this and trying to help me out..

stefan.. thanks! ""If Moon is alone in Karakamsha or in 5th from Karakamsha, the native become a musician." - if i switch to krisnamurti, i get natal moon in scorpio and navamsha moon in cancer - which is 5th to navamsha jupiter in pisces, based off jupiter as the atmakaraka... so either lahari or krisnamurti i get moon in 5th from the atmakaraka..

i play music, but it has not be an easy life monetarily... as i think you noted earlier - i am more drawn to odd types of music - south node with venus according to some of the literature i have read - eccentric tastes in art or something like that... jazz, improv, original music.. nothing all that mainstream, although i like a lot of mainstream music and do play that too.. i play drums and i also teach drums.. i am self taught on piano and write songs, and arrange others songs via the piano mostly.. i have limited abilities as a musician, but get by.. it is what i love to do.. i am always trying to improve and become a better musician.. it is an endless work... i think i try to do the same with astrology, but fortunately i have never tried to make money off astrology!! i mostly think of rhythm focus as moon and saturn based... having these 2 planets rising seems to fit with my understanding of rhythm and time...

i have solar fire and they offer the vedic dasas.. i happened to notice the venus dasa started in 2003.. this was an important turning point in my life and very positive... if i use lahari it seems slightly less accurate then krisnamurti .. lahari says venus dasa starts april 10th, 2003, while krisnamurti says feb 26th 2003... i moved to where i am now and into a house that i 1/2 inherited in early march 2003.. not sure if this helps confirm krisnamurti system is more accurate or not..

thank you for the input everyone..
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Stefan



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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
stefan.. thanks! ""If Moon is alone in Karakamsha or in 5th from Karakamsha, the native become a musician." - if i switch to krisnamurti, i get natal moon in scorpio and navamsha moon in cancer - which is 5th to navamsha jupiter in pisces, based off jupiter as the atmakaraka... so either lahari or krisnamurti i get moon in 5th from the atmakaraka..


Aha it is...yes it's a complicated issue haha....

Btw I forgot to mention that from Karakamsha gemini in birthchart, if using parashara technique there is a 3rd ruler in 10th house combo again.
So moon as atma soul indicator seems to from various angles point to a soul desire to deal with music in professional setting.

Interesting study....

(Canada based astrologer christopher Keville use krishnamurti. Maybe you heard of him as you are from Canada as well. Good site. He use a blend of western and vedic techniques.)
http://modernvedicastrology.com/
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james_m



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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks stefan and for the link to a canuck mixed astrology practitioner..i will take a look...

can you explain the 3rd ruler in the 10th to me.. - saturn is ruler of 3rd.. saturn is ruled by mars, and mars is in the 10th house to the navamsha jupiter in pisces? is that it?
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Stefan



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Posted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I know this is confusing.

3rd ruler in 10th:
Career of selfexpression.
"....possible careers in writing, lecturing, sales, computers, communications,
or expressive arts such as dancing, acting or music"

from Bill Levacy "Beneath a vedic sky"

In vedic one can read the chart from various ascendants to get confirmation and confluence.
In your rashi chart you have 3rd ruler in ascendant as also Therese pointed out.
But using the moon in Libra you get this combination of 3rd and 10th house from various angles.

First from reading the chart from the moon sign libra. From libra the 3rd house is sagittarius ruled by Jupiter. Jupiter is placed in 10th house from moon. This is once...

Then as the moon is atmakaraka significator of soul in libra moon chart. Then there is a variety of techniques to use for reading the atmakaraka.

From karakamsha gemini we get the ruler of 3rd the sun in 10th house.

An important ascendant in jyotish is arudha lagna.
Arudha lagna is leo. From leo 3rd house is libra ruled by venus. Venus is in 10th house from leo.

From arudha lagna leo.. The moon is placed in 3rd house libra.
Moon in 3rd house
".....artistic in general, interest in the performing arts."


The confluence of this theme seen from various perspective is quite strong.

Yes this is not first things learned in jyotish, but may contribute something about moon position.


Last edited by Stefan on Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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