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mansions of the moon

 
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:28 am    Post subject: mansions of the moon Reply with quote

i posted this in the general astro forum, but thought i would post it here too, to get some of the siderealists viewpoint this... thanks..

"this article of peter stockinger reminds me of the nakshatras.. anyone know what peter or those previous to him are basing these mansions of the moon on? i can't find it on his site.. thanks.. if you read the comment section, it appears peter doesn't know the basis or origins of them.. ideas anyone??"

https://starsandstones.wordpress.com/mansions-of-the-moon/the-mansions-of-the-moon/
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are the Arabic Mansions from Medieval times. But the author hasn't given any source text or date, at least not that I could see. Very poor scholarship.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks therese,

but the parallels are eerie.... clearly they are based on the approx 12-14 max degrees of the moons movement per day... 28 mansions verses 27 is another conundrum that has been discussed, but it appears to me they are both connected - arabic mansions from medieval times and natshatras from somewhere further back..

of course india was invaded by the muslims somewhere into the 800's... maybe it was later.. it seems to me the arabs picked this up from india... too many similarities to ignore the likelihood of a connection here..
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
It seems to me the arabs picked this up from india... too many similarities to ignore the likelihood of a connection here..

I believe it's true that the origin of the Arabic mansions is the Indian nakshastas. I say "believe" because I know I have references on this, but don't have them at hand at the moment. If I find time, I'll look up the reference texts.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks therese - this is my suspicion, but i have nothing to back it up..
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I happened to have this source in my files. It's old (1950), but I haven't been able to find anything later with more information.

Quote:
"The problem of the origin and distribution of these lunar mansions has been the subject of much controversy since the early part of the 19th century. Various theories have been advanced and various claims made, but no one has as yet been able to prove conclusively where the system of the lunar zodiac originated. The primary difficulty met with has been the inability to establish a chronology acceptable to all authorities in the field...

"Three theories exist in regard to the point of origin of the lunar mansions.

1. The system was founded in China, and spread from there through Central Asia to India and the Middle East.

2. The lunar mansions had their inception in India from where they spread to China and to the Middle East.

3. The system was established in Babylon, from where it spread to Arabia, India, and China."

The Origin of the Twenty-Eight Lunar Mansions
Author(s): Philip Yampolsky
Source: Osiris, Vol. 9 (1950), pp. 62-83
Published by: The University of Chicago Press on behalf of The History of Science Society
Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/301844

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james_m



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Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks therese,

i can see how this would be hard to get a definitive answer for.. all 3 options seem plausible.. aj on the general astro forum mentioned a book by alexandre volguine called lunar astrology, which discusses much of this too.. i have the book, but in the 1/2 hour i spent with it earlier today, was unable to find much in the way of his thoughts on the origins of these mansions of the moon.. i am going to read more of the book over the next 2 days and maybe i can offer something on it then.. his book was written in 1936, and reprinted in 1974 - the copy i have..

i notice your source is mentioned in the wkipedia page on lunar mansions.. - source number 2 for the comment - The concept of the lunar mansions are considered to be Babylonian in origin.[1][2][3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_mansion
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
I notice your source is mentioned in the wkipedia page on lunar mansions.. - source number 2 for the comment - The concept of the lunar mansions are considered to be Babylonian in origin.[1][2][3]

I have the Weinstock paper that concludes the origin of the mansions is Babylonian, but that paper is from 1949, even order than the source I mentioned in my last email. I have Volguine's book, but you won't find anything in there to help with the history of the mansions. That book was first published in 1936. It's obvious that we need some modern scholarship to help with mansion origins.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,

thanks for your input. i read the volguine book while i was away for 2 days.. i enjoyed it... hear are my thoughts on volguines book in relation to all this...

i see volguine as a compiler of ideas that were available to him at the time.. i think he did a very good job of this, however i don't know that i can agree with his conclusions and i noticed a real difference between his thoughts and the thoughts of the person who translated his work - michel bustros -who wrote the translation in 1974 from madras...

clearly michel bustros is very into and steeped in indian astrology.. his bias in the into is clear... nothing wrong with that, although it was interesting as volguines bias is with the arabs and a 28 mansions system...

without going into more detail, here is what it got me to thinking of.. numbers... 28 = 7x4... 27=3x3x3.. the obvious difference is the ideological purity of 3x3x3 from the point of view that 3 is a number that represents something quite different from 4... now, i realize the difference between the moon cycle - 27. whatever, verses 29. whatever and that is yet another challenge to lop onto all this.. it is the same challenge faced with 365 or so days on a 360 degree wheel!..

i don't want to get esoteric with numbers, but will just say i see the relevance and value of all of these systems.. for me, who started what first is more of a mute point...

back in a bit.. i have to go!
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
Without going into more detail, here is what it got me to thinking of.. numbers... 28 = 7x4... 27=3x3x3.. the obvious difference is the ideological purity of 3x3x3 from the point of view that 3 is a number that represents something quite different from 4...

This is an important observation. Four is more related to the material world (for example, four weeks in a month) while three is more esoteric or spiritual. It's interesting that India changed from 28 to 27 mansions. I can't write more at the moment. Will try to edit this post tomorrow rather than write a new post.

This is kind of off topic, but it's interesting that in India, often thought of as the spiritual capital of the world, new astrological systems are very concrete, detailed and based on intricate math with planetary positions down to seconds (Krishnamurti, Systems Approach, Cuspal Interlink Theory) while in the more material west we're seeing a lot of so-called "spiritual" astrology which can have an "airy fairy" label.

EDIT 5 April 2919:
As I wrote above, I think James has made an important observation, and the study of how the 28-fold mansions are used in the West compared to the 27-fold mansions in the East (India) would be a very fruitful area of research. Thinking about numbers, I realized that I don’t have a thorough background in their meaning. So I can only note a few ideas about three and four:

Three has been related to strength and unity, and 3 x 3 = 9, which is seen as the number of completion and termination.

Four is related to division–“and while a beauty in strength, in the divisions also makes for the greater weakness...”

These notes are from Edgar Cayce Reading #5751-1. When it comes to number symbolism I have to defer to others who have specialized in the study of the meaning of numbers. There are so many sources! But in relation to the mansions, a comparison of how the 27 and 28-fold divisions are used would give clues to the base numbers three and four as well as 7 (4x7 = 28 and 9 (3x9 = 27). Yes, a very fruitful area for research. Thanks for the suggestion, James.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks therese! i am not sure where i can go with it next..

the synodic month is 29.53 days)..
Each of the 4 lunar phases lasts approximately 7 days (~7.4 days), but varies slightly due to lunar apogee and perigee.
the tropical month is 27.321582 days (27 d 7 h 43 min 4.7 s
27.3 days is a sidereal month

here is a map of it
anomalistic 27.554549878 − 0.000000010390 × Y
sidereal 27.321661547 + 0.000000001857 × Y
tropical 27.321582241 + 0.000000001506 × Y
draconic 27.212220817 + 0.000000003833 × Y
synodic 29.530588853 + 0.000000002162 × Y

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_month#Synodic_month

there is not perfect round number in any of it! meanwhile astrologers are working with a symbolic language...they are trying to tie the reality in some symbolic form... thus we have 28 or 27 and sometimes apparently even 29 mansions of the moon.. none of them can be taken as a literal recreation of astronomical observations..

it reminds me of the dilemma regarding cusps... is it in this or that sign/house/nakshatra and etc. etc. etc.?? with the absence of perfection as i think of it, the mind is given plenty of room to doubt!

on a related note, that book - light on life by hart defouw and robert svoboda is quite a good book.. in particular the descriptions of the moon thru the different nakshatras is excellent.. but again - they are not perfect! nothing can be.. there are descriptions in this book that fit many of my friends and myself to a tee that i have never ever read on descriptions of the moon thru the 12 signs..

i know this is unrelated, but aside from some passing comments usually on the lagna in these nakshatras, they very infrequently mention some random thoughts on other planets in different nakshatras.. it would be interesting to read a cook book on the different planets in the different nakshatras, although i doubt a book has been written like this..

it would be interesting to know the history on why the different mansions, (regardless of the origins of them) were assigned certain positive or negative meanings.. i can't help but think there is a tie in with the fixed stars and their meaning according to folk lore from the past..

back to the 27 verses 28 mansion/nakshatra difference - given the importance of the navamsha chart in indian astrology, it makes sense that the nakshatras would also emphasize the number 9... which came first? the nakshatras probably.. it would seem to me the navamsha chart is an outgrowth of the nakshatras.. thoughts??
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
i know this is unrelated, but aside from some passing comments usually on the lagna in these nakshatras, they very infrequently mention some random thoughts on other planets in different nakshatras.. it would be interesting to read a cook book on the different planets in the different nakshatras, although i doubt a book has been written like this..

Originally the nakshatras/mansions were related only to the position of the Moon. It's only from the 1990s that (mostly western) astrologers began to give interpretations for the Ascendant and Sun in the mansions as well as the Moon. There is no tradition on this, so it comes from the minds of contemporary astrologers.

Quote:
It would be interesting to know the history on why the different mansions, (regardless of the origins of them) were assigned certain positive or negative meanings.. i can't help but think there is a tie in with the fixed stars and their meaning according to folk lore from the past..

I can't speak for the Western mansions, but in India at an early date each nakshatra had a ruling deity. Mansion traits have been related to these deities. There's a recent book on these deities and the nakshatras: The Divine Forces of the Lunar Nakshatras (as portrayed in the Vedas) by Radhe, Ganapati Productions, 2015. Originally no interpretations were given to the fixed stars as such. Linking the stars with planetary meanings began with Hellenistic authors, such as Ptolemy.

Quote:
Back to the 27 verses 28 mansion/nakshatra difference - given the importance of the navamsha chart in indian astrology, it makes sense that the nakshatras would also emphasize the number 9... which came first? the nakshatras probably.. it would seem to me the navamsha chart is an outgrowth of the nakshatras.. thoughts??

In Brihat Jataka (earliest classical Indian text, 6th century) VarahaMihira lists the navamsas along with other divisional charts such as the Trimsamsas in Chapter 1, early in the text. Only in Chapter 16 does he note physical and mental characteristics of the nakshatras. At first these were separate topics (the nakshatras obviously older from the Vedas). At some point the navamsas and 27 lunar mansions were merged in practice, so that each mansion is now divided into four "padas" or sections which are the navamsas.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James if you are interested I have a very neat table of the Nakshatras and their Qualities I could send you. It should format into a PM okay. I can't post it here publically because it is not my original table. Let me know. And thanks for starting this conversation, your thoughts on the number symbolism jostled some old rather rusty cogs in my head.

Therese: as usual you are spot on. Thanks for your scholarship and understandings on this topic.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese - thanks! i would like to echo aj's comment again to you.. it is all very interesting and informative...

aj - yes - i am definitely interested.. send as pm or i can give you my e mail again if you don't still have it.. cheers!
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ and James, many thanks for your thanks! Made my day (or week is more like it!) In my elder years I'm glad that I have time to write these posts and answer questions.
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