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Sidereal vs Tropical
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petosiris



Joined: 08 Oct 2017
Posts: 141

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How is Mars' exaltation related to the seasons then?


Ptolemy explains Jupiter's and Mars' exaltations with the tropical zodiac, when Mars is most southern, he is near the fiery south winds, and Jupiter in the north brings fertile northern winds. He explicitly says that Mars is more burning in Capricorn because of this placement.

But its possible that these placements were put there by the Babylonians, so maleficent planets coincide with the autumn and winter tropics, while beneficent planets with vernal and summer tropics, regardless of their heating and cooling power. It is still seasonal schematization. Or would you dispute that the Moon in Taurus with Sun in Aries was the Babylonian New Year?
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Raymond Scott



Joined: 08 Mar 2012
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder why Babylonians didn't choose Zi-ba-an-na (Libra) for the secret place (precursor to exaltation) for the Sun.
The Scales represented the sungod, Shamash in his role as God of Truth and Justice.
The Scales were sacred to him.
It was said that Shamash was the god that handed The Code of Laws to Hammurabi that were known as The Code of Hammurabi which was known for Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth,and Life for a Life. The serrated saw is a symbol of Shamash, and there are seals that show a god cutting off another's a transgressor's arm.

I can see why Zi-ba-an-na was chosen as a secret place for Saturn.
Saturn has been referred as Shamash. Saturn has been referred to as Star of the Sun or the Sun itself. The deity Ninurta has been associated with Saturn. He was a god associated with farming, healing, hunting, law, scribes, and war who was first worshipped in early Sumer. In the earliest records, he is a god of agriculture and healing, who releases humans from sickness and the power of demons. Ninurta recovered the Tablets of Destiny from the Anzu bird stolen them and returned them to his father, Enlil. The Tablets of Destiny had the power to turn back time.


Last edited by Raymond Scott on Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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Raymond Scott



Joined: 08 Mar 2012
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in Fall of 2015, I got and read Babylonian Star-lore by Gavin White which led me to get so interested in Mesopotamian Astrology that I converted from the Tropical Zodiac to Sidereal Zodiac.
I temporarily converted back in 2012 after reading Cyril Fagan's books, but I went back to Tropical Zodiac out of habit.
Gavin White opened my eyes.


I have Moon and Mars in Sidereal Aquarius. They are in the constellation, Aquarius. My Moon is conjunct alpha Aquarii Sadalmelek and theta Aquarii Ancha.
My Moon is conjunct gamma Aquarii Sadalbachia and Ancha in Right Ascension.
My Moon is in a 3D conjunction with Ancha. Even though My North Lunar Node is in Sidereal Capricorn, it is conjunct epsilon Aquarii star Albali.
I really don't like using projected ecliptic conjunctions. Bernadette Brady influenced me to have a preference for parans. Kenneth Bowser and Robert Hand has influenced me to use Right Ascension,Declination,and rotating Parans. However, David Cochrane has recently led me to change my mind to work with his method of rotating parans and not the methods that Starlight and Solar Fire uses.

The stuff that Gavin White wrote about Aquarius deeply resonated with me. That's something that Diana Rosenberg and Bernadette Brady failed to do with me when I read their histories of the Aquarius constellation.
Unlike them, Gavin pointed out that Aquarius was Gu-la 'The Great One' which represented Ea/Enki who was the God of Water,Wisdom,Magic,and the Arts. He was also a fertility god. He resided in the Apsu which is a watery region located between the Earth and the Netherworld. Capricorn was Sahur-Mas-ku 'The Goatfish.' Ea's symbol was the goat-fish. Both Gu-la and Sahur-Mas-ku were associated with him. Piscis Austrinus was Ku 'The Fish', and it was associated with Ea too. As-Gan ' The Field' was the other constellation associated with Ea.

In the Mul.Apin, Gu-la is identified as Ea.


I don't believe in using elements and ruling planets for the Sidereal Zodiac. The Babylonians didn't use them. That's all Hellenistic. I strongly disagree with what Western Sidereal Astrologers and Vedic Astrologers are doing. I don't want to use the Greek names for the zodiac signs like the Western Sidereal Astrologers.

I want to use the Mesopotamian names for the zodiac and interpret the zodiac signs based on the Mesopotamian star-lore which means that Gu-la (Aquarius) and Suhur-Mas-ku (Capricorn) would be water signs due to them being Ea/Enki and his symbol, the goat-fish. I'd see my Moon and Mars in Gu-la and North Lunar Node in Suhur-Mas-ku as watery placements with no connection to Uranus and Saturn. Mas-tab-ba-gal-gal (Gemini) would be Martian due to them being Twin Warriors that guard the Underworld ruled by Nergal which was the deity that was associated with Mars. Zi-ba-an-na (Libra) would be a strong and favorable placement for the Sun due to the fact that the scales is sacred to the Sungod, Shamash and that the sign represents him in his role as God of Truth and Justice. I view my Sun (especially), Mercury, and Venus in Zi-ba-an-na to have a solar-influence and not a Venusian influence.


Last edited by Raymond Scott on Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Katy Strong



Joined: 03 Apr 2019
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very interesting points, Raymond. Thanks for sharing. It also illustrates how mixed up it all is, how convoluted and difficult to see the woods for the trees Confused
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Raymond Scott



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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lu-hun-ga 'The Hired Man' (Aries) was associated with Inanna's husband Dumuzi who took her placed in the Underworld after she was killed and was resurrected 3 days afterwards.
She came back home and found Dumuzi to be only one in her household that was not in grief and was even sitting on her throne. She was angry and sent him to take her place in the Underworld.
Dumuzi spends half of the year in Underworld.
Dumuzi was a shepherd god.


The Babylonian Zodiac's 1st sign in the Zodiac was never Martian.
Mas-tab-ba-gal 'The Great Twins' was the only Babylonian Zodiac constellation/sign that was association with Nergal who was the deity that connection with Mars.

I don't think that there was any Babylonian Ram constellation.
Maybe there wasn't an existence of one until the Seleucid period after the Macedonian Greeks took control of Babylon.

Gary D. Thompson seems to have disagreements with Gavin White.
I actually like Thompson's site. There is a lot of useful information.
I notice that he has strong disagreements with Rumen Kolev who is a Pan-Babylonian.
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WooWoo



Joined: 05 Apr 2013
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just moving over to the Vedic approach of the Zodiac but holding onto the ideas I've learnt from the Western.

That just means that there are Sign changes on Cusps.

Doesn't it ?

H
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raymond Scott wrote:

Quote:
Lu-hun-ga 'The Hired Man' (Aries) was associated with Inanna's husband Dumuzi who took her place in the Underworld after she was killed and was resurrected 3 days afterwards.
She came back home and found Dumuzi to be only one in her household that was not in grief and was even sitting on her throne. She was angry and sent him to take her place in the Underworld.
Dumuzi spends half of the year in Underworld.
Dumuzi was a shepherd god.

I love Gavin White’s books, but unlike Raymond can’t retain what I’ve read without re-reading. But the correlation with Greek myth is interesting here. Following the natural pattern of the planets discovered after Saturn, we have Uranus-Aquarius, Neptune-Pisces and Pluto-Aries. This rulership has been suggested by siderealists of the Fagan school. In western astrology we have the Pluto-Persephone myth where Persephone must spend a portion of each year in the underworld with its ruler Pluto.

Quote:
The Babylonian Zodiac's 1st sign in the Zodiac was never Martian.

And going back to the Hellenistic assignment of triplicity lords, Aries is not seen as Martian either. The ancient triplicity lords of Aries were the Sun and Jupiter, “royal” planets. Mars was given to the Cancer (emotional expressive) triplicity.

It’s interesting the Dumuzi was a shepherd god, and in today’s tropical zodiac Taurus (sky area of sidereal Aries) is associated with pastures and rural life. We do see some evidence here that the Hellenistic link with Mesopoamia was formed in the sidereal zodiac rather than the tropical.

Quote:
Mas-tab-ba-gal 'The Great Twins' was the only Babylonian Zodiac constellation/sign that was association with Nergal who was the deity that connection with Mars.

I don't think that there was any Babylonian Ram constellation.

As far as I know there was no Ram in Mesopotamia.

Quote:
Gary D. Thompson seems to have disagreements with Gavin White.
I actually like Thompson's site. There is a lot of useful information.
I notice that he has strong disagreements with Rumen Kolev who is a Pan-Babylonian.

Raymond, can you please give a direct link to this section of Thompson’s site?
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woo Woo wrote:
Quote:
I'm just moving over to the Vedic approach of the Zodiac but holding onto the ideas I've learnt from the Western.

That just means that there are Sign changes on Cusps.

Doesn't it ?

I know it's late, but I wish we could drop the "Vedic" label for India's astrology. It's not accurate and was invented by astrologers in the 1990s in California, USA. Even today many astrology books published in India still use the term "Hindu" rather than "Vedic." The most accurate term is "Indian astrology."

Yes, sidereal astrology can change signs on cusps, but the interpretation of signs is very different in the sidereal zodiac. You can't transfer tropical Aries to sidereal Aries. If you want to to use tropical observations (not theory) you have to transfer tropical Taurus to sidereal Aries. This is one sign previously as the previous sidereal sign is mostly located in the following tropical sign sky area.
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WooWoo



Joined: 05 Apr 2013
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are they NOT Vedic Sciences ?

The Indian website Astrobix.com call themselves Vedics !!

But thanks for the Heads Up anyway.

H
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WooWoo wrote:
Quote:
Are they NOT Vedic Sciences ?

There is no horoscopic astrology in the Vedas. There are Vedic passages that relate to the nakshatras, but not in an astrological context. The majority of scholars, both east and west, believe that horoscopic astrology was imported to India from the west in the early centuries. Even the term "Jyotish" relates primarily to astronomy, not astrology. Here is a direct quote as to the origin of the term "Vedic" for India's astrology. This was an on-line interview with Chakrapani.

Quote:
Interview:

Charlotte [to Chakrapani]: I understand that you coined the term Vedic astrology.

Chakrapani: Yes. When I came to America, they were calling it Hindu. Swami Muktananda said that was not a proper name for Vedic astrology - it's astrology from the Vedas. It is not about Hindus. The Vedas are for universal knowledge. That is why the term Vedic astrology was coined.

Charlotte: Thank you for confirming that.

By Charlotte Benson
Interview on January 27, 2009

https://acvaonline.org/newsletters/chakrapani_ullal_interview_p1.html

India kept the sidereal zodiac that was in use in the west in the early centuries, but inspired astrologers developed the basic concepts of astrology in creative ways. The nakshatras (lunar mansions) were merged with signs of the zodiac, Dasas were added along with other types of calculations such as shad bala (to note planetary strength). So today India's astrology is very different from western tropical astrology except for the basic foundation of the 12 sign zodiac and traits related to that zodiac.

India did not adopt the four "elements" to zodiac signs. These have been added (incorrectly) by modern day astrologers. This has caused a lot of confusion in interpreting horoscopes.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="petosiris"]
Quote:
...so maleficent planets coincide with the autumn and winter tropics, while beneficent planets with vernal and summer tropics, regardless of their heating and cooling power. It is still seasonal schematization. Or would you dispute that the Moon in Taurus with Sun in Aries was the Babylonian New Year?

petosiris: I appreciate the reply and attempt to sustain the seasonal argument for the exaltation of the planets but I still feel it is rather feeble and does not follow clear consistent logic.

Porphyry's explanation for exaltation is more intellectually pleasing than any based on the seasons IMO, but none of the exaltation schemes are fully convincing to me at least. Even within BPHS, the complicated Parashara scheme of exaltations is also found wanting. As I am not an advocate for any of the systems, I cannot debate one over another.

For those unfamiliar with the Porphyry exaltation scheme:
The exaltation signs of diurnal planets trine to one of their own domiciles, while the exaltation signs of nocturnal planets sextile to one of their own domiciles
Diurnal planets: Sun, Jupiter, and Saturn
Nocturnal planets: Moon, Venus, Mars
Mercury is neutral regarding sect.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aj - thanks for your last post here.. i too find the exaltation ideas lacking.. they are hit and miss for me.. i was unfamiliar with porpherys description, but it doesn't seem to work with jupiter in the description you give... - correction - i see that it does as well pisces to cancer...moving forward, as opposed to sun leo to aries, and saturn aquarius to libra - moving backward thru the signs..

i have yet to get a copy of chris brennans book - hellenistic astrology.. i would be curious to know how he navigates this topic of exaltation's.. perhaps petosiris could answer this, as i believe they have a copy! i suppose this is also getting away from the topic at hand..
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petosiris



Joined: 08 Oct 2017
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="AJ"]
petosiris wrote:
Quote:
...so maleficent planets coincide with the autumn and winter tropics, while beneficent planets with vernal and summer tropics, regardless of their heating and cooling power. It is still seasonal schematization. Or would you dispute that the Moon in Taurus with Sun in Aries was the Babylonian New Year?

petosiris: I appreciate the reply and attempt to sustain the seasonal argument for the exaltation of the planets but I still feel it is rather feeble and does not follow clear consistent logic.

Porphyry's explanation for exaltation is more intellectually pleasing than any based on the seasons IMO, but none of the exaltation schemes are fully convincing to me at least. Even within BPHS, the complicated Parashara scheme of exaltations is also found wanting. As I am not an advocate for any of the systems, I cannot debate one over another.

For those unfamiliar with the Porphyry exaltation scheme:
The exaltation signs of diurnal planets trine to one of their own domiciles, while the exaltation signs of nocturnal planets sextile to one of their own domiciles
Diurnal planets: Sun, Jupiter, and Saturn
Nocturnal planets: Moon, Venus, Mars
Mercury is neutral regarding sect.


That is a possible rationale too, but in that case I don't see why Jupiter can't be exalted in Leo instead of Cancer, since Leo too is trine to its domicile, and on top of it, is masculine. Similarly, Sun can be exalted in Sagittarius. Do you know the logic behind those particular assignments?

Ptolemy's explanation is satisfactorily complete, at least.
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Raymond Scott



Joined: 08 Mar 2012
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Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Raymond Scott wrote:

Quote:
Lu-hun-ga 'The Hired Man' (Aries) was associated with Inanna's husband Dumuzi who took her place in the Underworld after she was killed and was resurrected 3 days afterwards.
She came back home and found Dumuzi to be only one in her household that was not in grief and was even sitting on her throne. She was angry and sent him to take her place in the Underworld.
Dumuzi spends half of the year in Underworld.
Dumuzi was a shepherd god.

I love Gavin White’s books, but unlike Raymond can’t retain what I’ve read without re-reading. But the correlation with Greek myth is interesting here. Following the natural pattern of the planets discovered after Saturn, we have Uranus-Aquarius, Neptune-Pisces and Pluto-Aries. This rulership has been suggested by siderealists of the Fagan school. In western astrology we have the Pluto-Persephone myth where Persephone must spend a portion of each year in the underworld with its ruler Pluto.

Quote:
The Babylonian Zodiac's 1st sign in the Zodiac was never Martian.

And going back to the Hellenistic assignment of triplicity lords, Aries is not seen as Martian either. The ancient triplicity lords of Aries were the Sun and Jupiter, “royal” planets. Mars was given to the Cancer (emotional expressive) triplicity.

It’s interesting the Dumuzi was a shepherd god, and in today’s tropical zodiac Taurus (sky area of sidereal Aries) is associated with pastures and rural life. We do see some evidence here that the Hellenistic link with Mesopoamia was formed in the sidereal zodiac rather than the tropical.

Quote:
Mas-tab-ba-gal 'The Great Twins' was the only Babylonian Zodiac constellation/sign that was association with Nergal who was the deity that connection with Mars.

I don't think that there was any Babylonian Ram constellation.

As far as I know there was no Ram in Mesopotamia.

Quote:
Gary D. Thompson seems to have disagreements with Gavin White.
I actually like Thompson's site. There is a lot of useful information.
I notice that he has strong disagreements with Rumen Kolev who is a Pan-Babylonian.

Raymond, can you please give a direct link to this section of Thompson’s site?




With with my short term memory problems in connection to my Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD, I have to constantly re-read stuff before it gets into my long term memory and that goes especially for things that I like which makes me want to hyperfocus and get obsessive with.
I tend to re-read stuff when I post things. It has to do with making sure that I can give the correct information and that things are clearly understood. I will even read stuff while I am typing and put into my own words as best as I can.

My short term memory sucks, but my long term memory is very good.
I got Gavin's book and read it back in fall of 2015.
I loved it so much that I read it a lot.
Of course, I am now a complete Sidereal convert with no intention of going back to being a Tropicalist.
My favorite stuff is definitely the stuff on Gu-la in associated with Ea/Enki.
That's why I got and wear an Ea/Enki pendant along with my Celtic Salmon of Knowledge.

Here is Gary D. Thompson's site.
Even though he looks down on Astrology, I really enjoy his site.
I do appreciate his criticism of things that seem very questionable like Rumen Kolev's ideas.

http://www.members.westnet.com.au/gary-david-thompson/index1.html
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Raymond,

Today I took a quick trip to the Solunars Fourm (Jim Eshelman's mundane forum) and noted that members were giving you a hard time when you tried to discuss Mesopotamian astrology. Members on that forum live in an Ivory Tower where the only valid sidereal astrology is spelled with a capital "S" and is limited to concepts introduced by Cyril Fagan and expanded upon by a few followers.

So as others have discovered (including myself), any other discussion is not accepted or tolerated on that forum. They are selling one very limited brand of astrology. This is the attitude that will cause some of these "Sidereal" concepts to die out once the oldsters are gone, which won't be too many years from now.
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