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Athletic Event Prediction
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Rookie



Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 141

Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 12:54 pm    Post subject: Athletic Event Prediction Reply with quote

Hello All. Trying my hand at something different. I am trying to predict the outcome of an athletic event. Essentially my daughter is competing in her states track championships and I asked will XXX win the state meet.

As I am studing. I am learning it is basically a L1 vs L7 question. L1 is XXX since it is my daughter and L7 is the rest of the competition (the field).

So L1 is moon on the 12th cusp by 0.16 degrees and L7 is Saturn in the 7th, and retrograde.

First thought is that since L7 is in her on house the answer is Someone from the field wins. However, we are talking about a retrograde Saturn, so I would read it that allthough Saturn is in her own house, maybe her house is burning down and she can't compete.

Also, POF and North node is in the first house suggesting a favorable out come for XXX.

Comments?
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Rookie



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Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should also note that Saturn is conjunct south node in the 7th by 0.25 degree's
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rookie - this is maybe more so a Sports and Speculation topic. They predict which team will win when there is a competition using election for the time and place of the event. I can move this to that thread if you want.

From what I understand, some say it is a little more complicated than L1 and L7 and L1 being the home team. I have tried using this approach for sports competitions and it seems to work most of the time but there are other methods that you might find in that forum. Usually when I look at a chart and someone says they used this approach and it gave the wrong outcome, I don't agree with the planet they say has the most strength, though. They often do not look at traditional signification of planets, such as superiors generally being stronger than inferiors in nature. For example, if a planet is signified by Mars and the opposing team is Venus, Mars by nature is good at athletics and is more superior, and to me seems like it needs to be pretty debilitated to be beat by Venus (just my opinion though). Saturn would definitely be significantly stronger in nature than the Moon, all things being equal. In this case it is already accidentally and essentially stronger too.

The question is, who is Moon and who is Saturn? Some say you have to assign planets based on which one fits the team best, such as looking at color indicators, for example. Another thing some people consider is comparing natal charts for competitors (in cases where it is one on one) or the chart of the team, if available, to the event chart. This can be helpful when used in combo with the predictive techniques. I have never read any books on the subject matter but there are various techniques available for people serious about sports and speculation. Unfortunately, even though I have 5 planets in fire signs and Mars in Aries angular, I like competition but hate sports so I don't have a ton to contribute.
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Rookie



Joined: 13 Aug 2009
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Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi tanith

I wrote in my post "So L1 is moon on the 12th cusp by 0.16 degrees and L7 is Saturn in the 7th, and retrograde."

The reason I took L1 as my daughter is because I have a vested interest in her and of course L7 would be the opposition.

L7 in the 7th is favorable for the opponents but POF and NN in the first is good signs for L1. Saturn retrograde and conduct SN is bad. I think the retrograde describes something about the opponents, maybe they appear to be moving backwards compared to my daughter.

Non the less, I would appreciate any and all interpretations.
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Wed May 08, 2019 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The typical approach is that the home team is represented by L1 and opposing team is L7. Some people give the home team L7, which doesn't make sense to me but is another approach. If it were a horary, I could understand using the 1st for someone specifically, though.

It sounds like PoF is afflicted by Saturn, so not necessarily good. Saturn conjunct SN is considered favorable because it renders it more positive in nature.
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jimijamesandtheblueflames



Joined: 03 Oct 2018
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Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In most contest charts, the first and tenth houses should be assigned to the favourite whether they are the home team or not, the 7th and 4th houses for the underdog. Pay no attention to colours. They're of such minor testimony in event charts that they are hardly worth considering.

I've found this approach to work in team events such as football, athletics though, is an individual's contest, so I would suggest that a horary such as a "will my daughter win" type of question would probably yield more accurate results.

In such charts, aspects from the Moon to Fortuna really play an important part, as do L1/L10 aspects to the 10th cusp.
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Rookie



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Posted: Thu May 09, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far none of this addresses my question. Is a retrograde Saturn L7 in the 7th house of the opponents weak enough to suggest they can't win?

Also another question I came up with reading Wasp mk2's response is should I be turning the chart since the question about my daughter? Should L7 represent my daughter and L1 the opponents?

I guess we will have to wait and see. The event is tomorrow....
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So far none of this addresses my question. Is a retrograde Saturn L7 in the 7th house of the opponents weak enough to suggest they can't win?


It would help to see a chart to say which planet is stronger because I am just going off of what you said. In my opinion, Saturn is significantly stronger but I have no idea who is Saturn, if anyone. I would go by Lilly's point scheme. One debility is hardly enough. Retrograde movement is -5 but so is Moon being in the 12th, and Saturn has many other strengths from the description.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html

To me, an angular planet in general has more power in a chart. A cadent one is quite weak and has trouble having control over a situation, unless another planet gives it aid somehow and is itself more powerful to do so (which we can't say without more info). This is a traditional interpretation that goes beyond point calculations. Add to that the fact that by nature Saturn usually exerts more control over other bodies due to its own planetary nature and the fact that it is the most superior body.

Event charts are not personal charts like horary, so assigning the L1 to someone because they are important to you does not work in all cases. It is better to think of them as a group experience because there are other people involved in the event. As someone mentioned, you might not even want to use L1/L7 (I would trust people who use this more frequently than I do). Is the state meet at home or somewhere else? Who is the underdog? Maybe share the chart in case others can offer an interpretation.
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Rookie



Joined: 13 Aug 2009
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Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So here is the chart



State meet is an away meet today in about 6 hours. My daughter is the favorite to win. I wonder if she should be represented by the 7th as is typical with general horaries and the comp 7th from the 7th or first.

Anyhow, I look forward to hearing something and I will update later or tomorrow
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri May 10, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see now, you posted a horary. I thought this was an event chart for an athletic meet. If you have a chart for that it might be interesting to share with the outcome for this group.

Daughters are 5th house (she did not ask the question so I would not give her the 1st). Venus is the 5th ruler (I use Regiomontanus though and don't know if Mars is ruler or not in that system) in detriment and afflicted by Saturn. Venus in Aries is very competitive and takes on the nature of Mars, a planet very good at athletics, but I would be surprised if she won, despite Jupiter's aid (it is cadent and retro so not very strong). Venus's dispositor is also quite weak. Maybe her team somehow fails her and Saturn might be representing a formidable opponent. Venus in detriment in the 10th can sometimes show a public embarrassment so she may feel that the event was somehow embarrassing. I have it in natal and publically embarrass myself more than I would like to. Moon is also very poorly placed and not within orb of anything.

I hope the chart is wrong though (Saturn in the 7th can show the astrologer makes poor judgment too) and wish her luck.
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Rookie



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Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tanit, and since you are the only one who responded with input, I will reveal the result.

My daughter was one of two that jumped the highest height but took less attempts in the competition and won the even on that tie breaking rule.

She is the State Champion
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Rookie. I am not really seeing that in the chart (other than Saturn in the 7th being a warning about the chart) but I am glad she did well! Congrats! Maybe the event chart might have been better? What is especially difficult here (besides the Moon, the most important body), imo, is Saturn prohibits (and afflicts) Venus from aspecting Jupiter, the radical 10th ruler and a general planet associated with gains. If anyone who uses horary for athletic predictions sees something else, hopefully they will chime in.

Some would argue that questions like this are not a good use of horary because it does not aid anyone and I am on the fence about it myself. I am not sure if event predictions are much better though. I do know that I have asked questions on how I would do on exams, which is not much different in nature, and there were charts that suggested I would do poorly where I did very well, sometimes even a top score. I do not see discrepancies like this in questions that are more relevant for horary being used as an aid in a difficult situation, though. This is just my experience. Deb seems like she agrees with this in her article on questioning horaries:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary_questions.html
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 317

Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 2:56 am    Post subject: Re: Athletic Event Prediction Reply with quote

Rookie wrote:
Hello All. Trying my hand at something different. I am trying to predict the outcome of an athletic event. Essentially my daughter is competing in her states track championships and I asked will XXX win the state meet.

As I am studing. I am learning it is basically a L1 vs L7 question. L1 is XXX since it is my daughter and L7 is the rest of the competition (the field).

So L1 is moon on the 12th cusp by 0.16 degrees and L7 is Saturn in the 7th, and retrograde.

First thought is that since L7 is in her on house the answer is Someone from the field wins. However, we are talking about a retrograde Saturn, so I would read it that allthough Saturn is in her own house, maybe her house is burning down and she can't compete.

Also, POF and North node is in the first house suggesting a favorable out come for XXX.

Comments?


Hi all,

First, my congratulations to Rookie and his daughter!!!

Second, it looks like this thread is over and Rookie might not see my reply (or … maybe our email notifications have been fixed and he might see it).

Third, however, after Tanit has confirmed that Rookie posted a horary chart (Placidus) I thought this was a wonderful opportunity for me to study and match the good outcome Rookie has supplied… I was thinking of my recent wild goose chase with Saturn in 7th house and here again, it’s Saturn – I don’t seem to learn, do I (those who are following Woo Woo’s appearance in horary section know what I mean).

I became quite inspired to convert Rookie’s Placidus chart into Regiomontanus. With some trial and error, I finally got it to work (see the chart below). 5th house now moved to 29 degrees, but Venus is still the ruler.





Although Rookie has said he is trying to predict the outcome of an athletic event and using 1st vs 7th, he never mentioned his daughter’s team nor another team. His concern is focused on whether his daughter will win or not. Therefore, I agree with Tanit to take this as a 5th house matter.

His daughter is Venus in Aries placed in 10th house. She is accidentally dignified. Venus in Aries is not detriment in her case because she is an athlete who is competing in a big sporting event.

Her competitors are Mars (7th from 5th) in Gemini placed in 12th house. Accidental debility. Mars is termed by retrograde Saturn (conjunct SN) which doesn’t look promising.

10th house (Jupiter) is the award/title. I keep it in radical 10th because her glory was shared with many people (including her father). This sports competition was a state-wide event rather than involving radical 2nd (derived 10th from 5th) which is a small personal event.

Venus and Jupiter are going to have mutual application (they are in fire signs) whereas her competitor, Mars in Jupiter’s detriment, is separating from the award.

Therefore she is the state champion.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PoF -

Thanks for sharing the Regio chart. What about Saturn prohibiting Venus from aspecting Jupiter, though? Venus is in detriment and even peregrine, which is not something to ignore. Moon is also very bad off. It does not fit a chart that clearly shows overcoming difficulty to win but this is not our chart and maybe the reader predicted correctly based on how they interpret astrology and the chart. Ultimately, a horary chart is made by an astrologer and is for them to read and interpret. We can tell them classical usage to try to be more consistent in our approach but there are other means of using divination. We don't know their interpretation of the chart, as you mentioned, unfortunately, and I don't think it is ever a good idea to leave a chart to be interpreted by others (it makes more sense to seek an astrologer to create their own chart). IMO, there is something inexplicable about the nature of an astrologer understanding and forming a horary to be read and the chart may be readable by others but it is a unique chart created for them. Maybe the event chart might have shown victory more clearly on a more empiric level, though.

I agree that Venus in the 10th can show a competitive female, which I stated previously, but even the dispositor is poor. All we can say is Venus is accidentally dignified but in most cases that is not enough to overcome affliction from Saturn, who is also accidentally and essentially dignified and a stronger planet and does not receive Venus. Saturn is a superior, Venus an inferior and it is said that the benefics can help control the malefics but that only Jupiter can take on the energy of Saturn to alleviate its difficulty, unlike Mars, whose energies can be mitigated by Venus or Jupiter (according to Bonatti). Even if retro, suggesting perhaps the square is somehow not fully capable of perfecting somehow (it can show a reversal, change of mind, etc.) that still does not mitigate the angularity and difficulty of Saturn (although SN decreases malefic abilities). Venus is also out of sect whereas Saturn is in sect. Overall, I just see a general theme of Saturn being important and a strong influence over Venus and it is coming from the radical 7th, a house of competition. I am going off of traditional ideas here, though. Maybe we could argue that the emphasis on retro planets of Saturn and Jupiter show some sort of reversal, such as gain after a tie, but it is an odd way to show it via a Saturn square.

The aspect also appears to be dexter, where Saturn is dominating Venus based on dexter versus sinister signification: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/aspects.html#sd

One would assume difficulty (which was observed with a tie that was broken) but the question is, is this difficulty overcome on a logical level here?

It is said that traditionally Jupiter can be a mitigating force but when accidentally debilitated the ability for that to happen is again poor. If anything, one might attribute it to Saturn being retro, with SN and the possible mitigating force of Jupiter (and PoF in the 1st, although I would say 2nd, and again afflicted by Saturn). Venus seems to fit the competitor well but perhaps there is a different ruler that should have been used to represent the team, etc. Saturn in the 7th is a red flag to all of us that this chart is a bit problematic or that we are missing important information to help interpret it. Still, any victory chart for a horary should not have the Moon so poor. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me but maybe it shows worry by the querent? I personally agree with Deb that just because a question is asked does not mean the chart will align well with an outcome and the Considerations (such as Saturn in the 7th) are one thing to pay attention to. If I were a betting person with a chart like this, I honestly would have bet on the daughter to win because in my experience Saturn in the 7th tends to show incorrect judgment (which is why I mentioned it earlier). Much like tarot, a horary may be incorrect or partially so for whatever reason. This is divination, so there is an element of mystery to it.

If we try the 1st/10th versus 7th/4th, I still say the rulers of 7th/4th are stronger.
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.
Hi, thank you, Tanit for the dexter versus sinister link and other valuable information.

Tanit3333 wrote:


Thanks for sharing the Regio chart.


It was fun going to various cities via computer to find the right ascendant and MC. Recently someone posted in the nativities forum asking about the house cusp being shifted so I was curious when I saw Tanit was wondering about 5th house ruler.

I haven’t practiced sports astrology ever since my home team baseball went downhill -- that was three years ago. I know there are quite a lot of experts here in the forum so I’m hoping they might teach me something.

Well, this is Rookie’s chart. He is asking will his daughter win? So, we really need to investigate 5th, 10th and 11th (7th from 5th). Players are Venus in Aries (daughter), Mars in Gemini (her opponent) and Jupiter in Sagittarius (award/honor) and as far as I can see this chart is a winner’s chart based on what I have read about sports astrology – I think sporting event charts in general are not as complicated as horary relationship charts (advise me if I’m wrong).

In this case, accidental dignity is far more important than essential dignity. For instance, Venus and Mars are peregrine. They are in essential debilities but here it could mean neither of them are defending champions. One of them could have been a champion in a prior year but that was then and doesn’t carry over to this year’s competition, unlike a boxing match. So, we need to drop 10th vs 4th method. In relationship horary, Venus in Aries could be a detriment if the other party wants to have a submissive girl, but in sports astrology it is a strength. Her dispositor being poor is a welcome thing for Venus and unlucky business for Mars.

The Moon is very important in time-based events. This chart’s exact starting time is unknown because Rookie posted the chart several days before the final. Therefore, I would assign the Moon to Rookie rather than the Moon taking a part in hourly competition.

As for Saturn blocking Venus reaching to Jupiter, if this is prohibition then will Mars win instead of Venus? I doubt it (Mars has just separated from Jupiter by opposition). But someone must win… this is a sports event, and so it went. Rookie said his daughter won by a tie-breaking rule. Therefore, I wonder what is Saturn doing here in 7th house?

Venus is Triplicity in Capricorn and that’s where Saturn is located. If I count 7th from 5th, Saturn is placed in daughter’s derived 3rd house. This house represents communication, interaction and movement (such as walking, etc.) The daughter requires great physical strength with ability to use her body muscles. Could Saturn limit her movement? Either she could have jumped higher than her opponent (but Saturn limited her ability) -- this is a negative Saturn attempt... or Saturn limits her activity (in a positive way) and she took less attempts than her opponent and she won -- therefore Saturn is not prohibition. I’m not sure my reading is convincing. If this failed, I could blame Saturn in 7th house.


Last edited by Part of Fortune on Sat May 25, 2019 7:11 pm; edited 2 times in total
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