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potentially fun exercise for some -
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3535
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 5:36 am    Post subject: potentially fun exercise for some - Reply with quote

okay, this is a mystery chart!~ if you know the person, please skip saying who it is... even if you know the person - you will be intrigued by this little game i have created, hopefully......

okay, here is the deal... i am reading something right now, that you can either believe or not believe.... i will share the link after a few folks have made some comments on my question to you all here....

tell me about the type of relationships this person - male - would be involved in.. any description you can give on the nature of the relationship - i am interested in this as it might connect with the revelations that i am reading about at present... thanks and stay tuned for the article i am reading which gives specific details that you can take or leave... hopefully one or two of you will be crazy enough to engage in this with me.. thanks!

here is the tropical chart...



here is the sidereal chart...

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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 783

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

His Venus is showing possibly psychopathic traits. But it is really his Mars, Mercury, Jupiter conjunction in the fourth house opposition Pluto in the tenth house that is so striking. Mars is in 29 degrees Sagittarius, which as well as a straight conjunction with Mercury and Jupiter also aspects their antiscia.

I was recently thinking that Mars might represent, among other things, how we release stress. I have Mars in Taurus and I find pottering around a garden great for releasing stress, and can get a huge amount done at the same time. Your man has Mars in Sagittarius.

Oops, just realised Pluto in Gemini.


Last edited by Fleur on Sat May 11, 2019 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 900

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He has a ton of Capricorn and Aquarius in his chart that would show someone who is mature, controlled and maybe even prefers to deny himself pleasure (delayed gratification is something Capricorn seems to love for some reason), and add to that Venus in Pisces, a very dreamy, idealistic placement that can more so admire from afar rather than delight in bodily pleasures. He would probably love control in general in his life though, especially with Pluto angular too. The ascendant ruler also carries the light of Mars, and Mercury by nature takes on planets it aspects so it a more aggressive, argumentative Mercury. As someone with Mercury conjunct Mars (I also have a wide orb opp Pluto too, so a tad similar), we can cut with our words at times and are quick with our thoughts/words and even our actions can be swift and direct (Mercury rules dexterity too and Mars might add heat to it). This can be a little harder for relationships unless either the partner enjoys arguing or is able to help counter it with peace. I am not violent and my Mars is even in a fire sign but I can be very argumentative and can pretty much get anything that I set my mind to, so I am guessing he might be similar.

I tend to like anecdotes and archetypes with charts. This chart reminds me a little bit of someone I once knew who is very religious and I think was a virgin on his wedding night - he also has a lot of Cap, a sign of Mercury rising and Mercury aspecting the 7th ruler, which is Jupiter essentially bad (his was in Virgo and he had Mercury in Cap). His wife is a plain woman who is seemingly as pure as he is and might have been a virgin too. To me this person seems like they would be very seemingly conventional and probably regarded as boring by most people. Like many people who are overly idealistic/puritans, he probably has a secret life he is ashamed of? Normally if I see a very pent up person I often immediately wonder something like that without astrology just because it isn't really natural to be so closed off outwardly without it manifesting in some way. He probably is even a little bit of a pervert with Mercury opp Pluto, conjunct Mars and Jupiter also, mixing with Venus via sextile. I have yet to meet a Mercury-Pluto hard aspect without a bit of a dirty mind. Maybe 12th ruler Sun in the 5th could show some sort of fling with more youthful people and an attraction for those who are different with Uranus in the 5th. Overall he seems extremely Saturnian though and not the life of the party. With love I am guessing he is probably not very appealing or romantic but is steadfast and loyal, like most strong Saturn types. He is probably even awkward, shy or geeky but at the same time has a weird control fetish and probably wants a woman or partner who he could control. Even though the 4th is angular, I also view it as a more private house because it rules things hidden and under the earth, our roots, etc, so his ascendant ruler there makes me think of someone more private too and very difficult to get to know personally (which Capricorn types already are). Mars in the 4th though too seems like they would be harder to live with and the home environment (or maybe just the upbringing) might be difficult or even violent, especially with Pluto involved. He would also be an effective writer or public speaker, obviously, with the Mercury/Mars/Pluto connection angular and emphasized (and Mercury lords the 1st and 10th). My first thought was that he is a writer because he seems like he would not like attention. Sometimes Mercury-Mars-Pluto people can just enjoy solving puzzles in some way too.

The ascendant ruler with the 7th ruler like that would suggest at least one marriage and I personally think Mercury-Jupiter is one of the more friendly links there (it is an easier relationship than the other types probably because they are friendly planets to one another and the houses are not ruled by malefics like Moon-Saturn, Venus-Mars, Sun-Saturn). The relationship can end up feeling more like a friendship, though.

If I tried to interpret the sidereal I would come to very different conclusions! They would be loaded with fire, Sun ruling the chart in the 5th, etc.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3535
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi fleur -

thanks for chiming in... i am not sure the basis for your comment here, but am always curious...
Fleur wrote:
His Venus is showing possibly psychopathic traits


hi tanit -

thanks for taking the time to look at this closely and comment thoroughly... i tend to look at the mars-venus in a persons chart to try to get a feel for the way they might interact with the opposite sex.. in this example it is generally positive on this simple level... also when looking at the ascendant-descendant tropical rulers - mercury and jupiter, or perhaps mercury with venus, the exalted planet in pisces - the synergy would appear positive in the later example, but perhaps mercury in sag in determent is completely overshadowed by jupiter in sag here..perhaps the mercury-mars conjunct adds a strong malefic edge to the person, given it's conjunction with ascendant ruler.. everything changes significantly when looking at the sidereal chart... i went and looked at these charts after i read was i was reading - last night.. it was after the fact that i thought i would take a look at the chart for this person..

i like what you say about mars in the 4th being harder to live with... all of your comments are good and insightful!

the data for the chart is rated aa by adb... i will post the data on this person and the story i read that shed a particular light on the relationship they apparently had (in a limited context connected to the article) in the next 2 days.. thanks..
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 900

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see where Mars-Venus can sometimes be descriptive but as someone with a conjunction, I often think the relationship is a bit over-emphasized and over-rated as a relationship descriptor (unless maybe in the 7th or ruling it). I have had many natal readings over the years and have yet to have a reading that interpreted my chart correctly due to my conjunction and their assumptions on that aspect. It is something worth looking at but in his chart I don't see it being emphasized much and in most traditional texts you would look at Venus, Moon and 7th ruler for a male (and maybe the cycle of Sun-Venus, here showing Venus very traditionally placed, occidental, in sect and exalted - showing a more traditional person). A sextile isn't a very strong aspect. I normally see Mars-Venus as someone in touch with both energies of masculinity and femininity and it can be helpful with creativity, working with one's hands and generally being able to see both sides of things better (they might be less likely to be sexist, for example). When Venus is with Mars I also tend to think of someone who puts action into creative pursuits or creative ideas, such as a physical demonstration of creative ideas (or work that involves both physical dexterity and creative precision, such as a sculptor or even a surgeon). An example that springs to mind is Harry Styles, who is bisexual and is very big on equality of the sexes and love in general (and is a creative person) and has a conjunction in Aquarius. With certain aspects, a person can also be more physically appealing to the opposite sex. It does make me think they are less likely to have an unhealthy relationship with the opposite sex in most cases but the chart as a whole would be a better indicator, such as ascendant ruler tightly conjunct the 7th ruler, indicating partnership is probably very important to them. In this case, he would need to watch out for whatever the Mercury/Mars-Pluto manifests as (with Jupiter maybe even exaggerating it more). It is an aspect that would probably be present in most areas of his life by being angular and with the ascendant ruler.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3535
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi tanit,

i agree with you.. the combo of mercury-mars-jupiter in opposition to pluto would seem much more significant, especially as it includes the ascendant ruler...

perhaps moon in aq in the 6th and venus in pisces in the 6th/7th whole sign has a lot to do with how he would imagine a women to be - servant, subservient and very platonic and good natured... how do you interpret jupiter in cap in fall, which rules the 7th? that would seem to be a negative as i understand it...
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 900

Posted: Sat May 11, 2019 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jupiter lording the 7th in general is an easier planet. In earth signs it is not at home and is less abundant in energies in Cap and would probably limit the quantity of relationships (as I mentioned, it is more common in charts of people who are more pure/simplistic in relationships). You don't necessarily want an abundant Jupiter lording the 7th because that could increase change in relationships due to many opportunities, in my opinion. I normally think of Jupiter debilitated as someone who does not rely on luck, faith, etc. but is more practical (and is probably more melancholic). That could describe the spouse but also just the native in some sense.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks tanit... that is a more friendly interpretation of the place of jupiter in cap on the 7th house..
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 900

Posted: Sun May 12, 2019 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James - I bought a book 12 years ago from Kevin Burk entitled "Understanding the Birth Chart: a comprehensive guide to classical astrology" that helped me make sense of the sign placements of planets on a traditional level using a more practical application and that is basically some of his interpretations of Jupiter in earth signs (mixed with things I know from other sources, such as Lilly's significators for marriage in natal charts). I no longer own Burk's book but I remembered the basics for all of the planets in the signs and how they might manifest. He used essential dignities in the interpretations of sign placements for planets that I had not found elsewhere. It helped me with natal and horary quite a lot.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3535
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon May 13, 2019 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks tanit.. i ordered a 2nd hand copy for 5$.. i will check it out.. my only limitation is time to be able to read... well, maybe it is the way i think too, which is clearly different then you! another poster gave me a pdf copy of an abu mashar book that i have yet to read..i find it much easier to read away from the computer... but, again - that's my preference..

i will give the update on this tomorrow night... thanks for participating!
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3535
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tanit and fleur...

thank you both for participating and offering up your astrological insights... i appreciate it..

the chart belongs to richard nixon... in the article i read this past saturday-sunday, seymour hersh offers up a number of comments, backed up by conversations he had with others about nixon beating up his wife, although this was all kept out of the news for obvious reasons... https://www.cjr.org/special_report/seymour-hersh-monday-interview.php

it is an interesting interview from about a year ago... folks can take it or leave it, but it motivated me to take a look at nixons chart... i feel the sidereal chart catchs the situation better, but maybe i am mistaken on this... saturn as ruler of the 7th and in the square to venus in aquarius, while saturn makes 10th house aspects in indian astrology, along with 3rd and 7th house aspects - seems to catch some of this... the planets are in mutual reception, but i am not sure how one would factor this in... moon as 12th house ruler in cap and in the 6th seems to fit as well...

here is the adb link to nixons chart..
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Nixon,_Richard

here is the link to his wife pat nixons chart.
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Nixon,_Pat

here is pat nixons chart for a quick view..



interesting how both have mars-pluto aspects - pat the conjunction and richard the opposition... both also have them caught up with jupiter, although in some ways richard nixons combo is more problematical including mercury the ascendant ruler within it as well...

note the position of pats sun as ruler of the descendant - tropical, in a square to mars- pluto... this seems to sum up the suggestions in the article as well.. one has to look further in sidereal with the navamsha that has mars in the 7th - a bad sign essentially...

pat and richard both have moon in aquarius.. the most significant connection using the sidereal charts is the moon-venus conjunction in pats chart exactly square the saturn in richards chart, which again, is the ruler of the 7th.. that he was married to a very sweet women who was admired is picked up in the write up on her on the adb link i provided above - "Her goodwill and disposition earned so much admiration that the Gallup poll named her among the nation's most admired women in 1957, 1968, 1969, 1970 and 1971."

like i said - you can take or leave the comments by seymour hersh, but it would appear they were backed up by more then a few sources and it was something new to me... i wondered if i could see this in the charts, and i think i do.. this is not to say that they couldn't have also had a positive relationship in many ways, but it would be severely marred by this revelation as i see it...

on a related note - regarding the concept of besiegement , note the saturn-pluto duo boxing in the midheaven... this is a man who fell from a high position thanks to watergate and the corruption which included his and others illegal actions... the enclosure in trumps chart catches his venus and 12th house, so it is a different story... i thought i would toss that out for consideration too, seeing as trump is such a controversial figure...
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 900

Posted: Tue May 14, 2019 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, I honestly don't know much about Nixon (I find politics in general boring, let alone the lives of politicians) but definitely never heard about him beating his wife. I can see the potential with how Mars is being shown in his chart in the 4th and with the ascendant ruler and Pluto, and like you mentioned with Pat's chart and the signification of the 7th ruler. I know from personal experience that Sun-Pluto can be a controlling aspect that has the potential to turn violent, especially with Mars involved too. I have two sisters with hard Sun-Plutos and both have been violent in the spur of a moment (one even almost went to jail for fighting with her husband, who was also abusive, but she also has Mars in detriment on the 7th cusp opp Saturn). They mainly fight when someone disagrees with them and they want to force their will onto others. Her Sun is also in a difficult area at the end of Pisces, near a cluster of difficult fixed stars. Nixon does not have this Sun-Pluto-Mars in his own chart but still one would wonder about the potential for some violence or at least being very argumentative. I actually wonder if she would have contributed to any possible arguments that might have lead to violence. Although the Sun rules her 7th it is also involved in how she approaches relationships and the Sun rules in part our spirit/body and personality. With the Sun ruling the 7th, relationships were probably pretty important to her, as Nixon's chart also showed with the ascendant ruler with the 7th ruler. Interesting that both have the ascendant ruler in the 4th in earth signs. I guess their home life and private life must have been important to them.

If he did beat his wife, I am guessing that was maybe in part a cultural thing of the time? She seems like she would have had her own opinions, again due to how her Sun is being shown, but she also had Uranus on the ASC, Mercury in Aries in the 3rd(!) in mutual reception with Mars. Perhaps that could have lead to some discord, since his chart suggests he wants a lot of control.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi tanit,

i am pretty sure beating your wife wasn't culturally acceptable back then.. it definitely isn't today... in reading pat nixons bio on the adb page, it gave me an image of someone who had come up in a family background that was challenging, specifically with the father figure in her life.. if you haven't already - check it out.. her mom died young.. she was forced to play a particular role that wasn't so easy and maybe this explains some of her dynamic with richard.. i don't know..

but as for violence - i do associate mars, in particular in hard aspect with pluto as a strong possibility... it isn't a given, but the odds increase when found in hard aspect.. i recall working with a wonderful singer back in the 80's from san francisco.. she shared her birth chart with me and i saw a moon/pluto square mars... i asked her about her relationship with her mom and whether there was any violence ever.. she was shocked by my question because there was.. now, maybe it was a fluke as i knew less about astrology then, then i do now...

in nixons tropical chart - mercury/jupiter rulers of the ascendant/descendant axis are both in a conjunction with mars ruler of the 3/8 houses... it might be pushing it to suggest this is the astro signature for this.. i liked your approach tanit of recognizing the control theme that is a clear dynamic of richard nixons chart that would manifest a particular way thru the capricorn-aquarius theme to his chart and perhaps given this set up i mention at the beginning of this paragraph - adding to the mix to create this dynamic brought forth in the seymour hersh interview... thanks as always for your astrological commentary!
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
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Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pat Nixon's chart is very interesting, her Uranus' antiscion is 27 degrees Scorpio 40 minutes, squaring her Moon Venus conjunction within one degree.

I tentatively associate hard, one degree orbed Moon Venus aspects with psychopathic traits, but I know there will be exceptions and enantiodromia (reversals). Uranus could be a key element in a reversal of meaning, so that she suffered violence from a psychopath rather than perpetrating.

Sorry that I didn't give this thread enough time, I have been very busy, overwhelmed. Now I can sit down and relax it is interesting to read through.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Wed May 15, 2019 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi fleur,

i have a moon-venus opp - about 1 degree.. do i demonstrate psychopathic tendencies? lol.. you don't have to answer that! i am glad you have enjoyed the thread and hope you get something of value astrologically from it.. cheers james
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