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Sidereal Rectification - Royal Family
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james_m



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Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the additional comments therese.. i hope your astro software challenges disappear soon! i never gave it much thought regarding the mean, verses true node with regard to the divisional charts, or vargas... this will change it substantially as i understand it..
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't been able to check the Khullar rectification yet, but I used Parshara's Light 7 to calculate shad bala, and it's very interesting that Archie's Jupiter is very low compared to the other planets, only 70 percent. The Sun's shad bala is 1.49 percent. All planets are above average except Jupiter. Meghan's Jupiter is also below average, 88 percent. Prince Harry's Saturn is extremely high, 1.69 percent. His other planets hover around average.

James, you have been reading a book on Shad Bala. Do the authors go into their view on how they interpret planets using shad bala values??

Some years ago a man wrote a book claiming that the shad bala of planets revealed the planets that Edgar Cayce said were key planets for individuals. (These are different for each person, and were related to psychology.) I don't remember the author's name, but the book is probably somewhere in one of my bookcases.

AJ, any comments from your experience are welcome!
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james_m



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Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,

yes, they do go into all the different aspects to shadbala and how these scores are arrived at.. it is more complicated then not, and too complicated for me to articulate in a post to you here.. i think there are 8 or more ways and inside these 8 or more ways, there are subsets inside each one as well sometimes... this is why i was pondering getting some software to do it, although, i am not convinced of the effectiveness of this either, as unless i properly understand the basis of it, i am less inclined to use it..

take planetary phase for example.. it is an idea embedded in astrology, but there is very little talk about it other then when planets are combust the sun... what about when the outer 3 - mars, jupiter or saturn is 60 degrees behind or in front of the sun?? is this a strong planetary phase, or not? how does it differ from some other aspectual position to the sun? the inner planets mercury and venus are different of course.. generally no one talks about this or seems to factor it in, in their analysis of the strength or weakness of the planet...

here is another one - retrograde planets.. if you read most traditional astrology, retro is considered a serious liability.. indian astrology seems to view this noticeably different... who is right, or is there some truth in both perspectives that require a deeper understanding? presently i think the later, but i have nothing to prove it to you.. in order to understand something better i think one needs to understand all the moving parts!

lets say a planet is strong by planetary phase, assuming for the moment we know what this means, how do we add in sign and house position?? how do we add in where the planet is in connection with the angles of a chart? shadbala rules say for example that saturn is strongest in the descendant, while mars and sun are strongest in the midhevaen, and etc. etc. .. who is factoring in all these observations in some weighted manner when they do astrology?

how about moon, saturn and mars are stronger at night then in the day and etc. etc. ??

i think this is why falling back on software to generate shadbala is a good and a bad thing.. unless the astrologer understands the basis for it, they are relying on something they know very little about..

it was worth it to read the book on shadbala and i may go back to it.. it is complex though, so it is a bit of a study in itself..

i have been staying focused on understanding the navamsha still.. it is also much more complicated then it might seem... i have been reading up on rasi tulya navamsha and its side kick - which i think is called tulya rasi navamsha.. the first one is where you take the ascendant from the natal chart and impose the planets from the navamsha into the natal ascendant set up.. the other one is the reverse - take the navamsha ascendant and put the natal planets in the navamsha ascendant set up.. these charts are also used along with a myriad of different techniques to arrive at a prediction!

frankly - it is all quite mind boggling! one could spend a lifetime learning all of the ins and outs of indian astrology... maybe after a while one just settles into a particular position, or not.. how about this - using navamsha charts to know which dasa is going to open up when?? up until a few days ago, i figured dasas were relevant at the approx time they become active... this book on navamsha is taking a different tack then this, or making it more complicated... sorry for getting off track here.. these are just some random thoughts for tonight... cheers james
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
all the different aspects to shadbala and how these scores are arrived at.. it is more complicated then not, and too complicated for me to articulate in a post to you here.. i think there are 8 or more ways and inside these 8 or more ways, there are subsets inside each one as well sometimes... this is why i was pondering getting some software to do it, although, i am not convinced of the effectiveness of this either, as unless i properly understand the basis of it, i am less inclined to use it..

Hi James and Therese:
As you point out James, Shadbala is a rather complex computation with fifteen or so components that can be classified into six divisions. The total of all these gives the calculated strength for the planet. Some of these are easy to compute and some are very obscure which is why different traditions and software calculate them differently.
Taking Archies chart as an example.
Therese wrote:
Quote:
Archie's Jupiter is very low compared to the other planets, only 70 percent. The Sun's shad bala is 1.49 percent. All planets are above average except Jupiter. Meghan's Jupiter is also below average, 88 percent. Prince Harry's Saturn is extremely high, 1.69 percent.

My software calculates it much the same having Jupiter lowest except Mecury is the same as Jupiter! My point here I guess is be really careful with shadbala as it's a bit of a red herring IMO as it rarely gives a true picture of the working strength and weakness of planets in a chart. Again taking Archies chart as an example. In my software the shadbala calcualtion of Saturn is the same as the Moon and both are second only in strength to the Sun. I consider Saturn as Archies weakest planet due to its dispositer extremely weak in late degrees, gandhanta, and exactly afflicted by Ketu. The aspect from Mars hardly helps to stengthen Jupiter. Jupiter gets more help by being lord of the ninth. Jupiter is maybe actually running at quarter strength here and Saturn is even worse.
James wrote:
Quote:
frankly - it is all quite mind boggling! one could spend a lifetime learning all of the ins and outs of indian astrology... maybe after a while one just settles into a particular position, or not.. how about this - using navamsha charts to know which dasa is going to open up when??

Another caution I guess... Sorry. One of the main problems in Indian astrology or Jyotish is the large proportion of refining techniques available. Most of these methods are arcane and redundant that end up misleading the student into ignoring the more important and basic astrology that’s going on. The most important thing for the student to learn is the thinking process of applying basic Jyotish principles in a certain, but meaningful way. A Jyotish logic if you will. The are lots of limitations and contradictions to classical principles. Frankly, gurus (teachers) is a must in my opinion to learning it.

Be well.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks aj,

clearly there are a number of paths to take in astrology, but which one is most connected to reality, knowing how hard that is to define?? you mention saturn weak in archies chart for the reasons you do.. in my limited observations on saturn in the 10th, - 9th whole sign, but 10th given it's proximity to the midheaven degree, this is generally always a strong position which reaps rewards.. i say this when found in 10th solar house as well, which is not the case with archies chart, but just based on my own observation..

so, what does strong and weak really mean?

lets look at another royal british family chart... based on this concept of planets in early and late degrees, the chart would imply a lot of ''weakness' in some regards, maybe offset by the strength of a few of the planets in exaltation...the fact that queen elizabeth has ruled for as long as she has it testimony to something strong in her chart! it can't be the ruler of her ascendant, or the ascendant degree, lol... what must it be?? i guess we can fall back on mutual reception.. that's it, lol...

it seems to me astrology is very subjective in picking and choosing what to apply and when...

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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ and James,

I'm in the process of replying to thoughts in your posts, but for now a quick comment regarding Queen Elizabeth II:

James wrote:
Quote:
Lets look at another royal british family chart... based on this concept of planets in early and late degrees, the chart would imply a lot of ''weakness' in some regards, maybe offset by the strength of a few of the planets in exaltation...the fact that queen elizabeth has ruled for as long as she has it testimony to something strong in her chart! it can't be the ruler of her ascendant, or the ascendant degree, lol... what must it be?? i guess we can fall back on mutual reception.. that's it, lol...

The queen's chart is an example of how the navamsa can fill in blanks left by the natal chart. If we place the navamsa planets around the natal chart, we find Elizabeth's natal ascendant lord Jupiter at 28 Virgo 33, precisely at the zenith of her natal chart. Her ascendant degree as given is 28 Sag 39. We really need this precision in degree for Elizabeth's chart.

Navamsa Saturn is also conjunct natal Moon (4 degree orb). Consider what that means in relation to Elizabeth's psychology.

Navamsa Moon falls on the natal ascendant, orb 4 degrees.

Natal 5th lord (children) Mars conjoins the Lot of Fortune (3 degree orb).

Natal Venus conjoins the Sun (4 degree orb).

All these conjunctions are very relevant to Elizabeth's life, and we're not paying attention to myriad (and confusing) other details in the natal chart.

James, you're great at posting graphics, so a bi-wheel would be helpful here. Thanks! Elizabeth's ascendant is also vargottama. The (Krishnamurti) navamsa ascendant is 17 Sag 54 (Solar Fire 5).
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james_m



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Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,

your comments are confirmed in the chart for queen elizabeth natal inside and navamsha on the outside as seen below.... you're right! it is quite easy for me to post these charts as i am doing and i am happy to do it..

hi aj

i want to come back to some of what you said in your last comment..

AJ wrote:
The most important thing for the student to learn is the thinking process of applying basic Jyotish principles in a certain, but meaningful way. A Jyotish logic if you will. The are lots of limitations and contradictions to classical principles. Frankly, gurus (teachers) is a must in my opinion to learning it.
Be well.


it is interesting you say this.. i am not sure what to say about it, but i appreciate you qualifying it with the word opinion!! thanks for that.. you might be right...

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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
you mention saturn weak in archies chart for the reasons you do.. in my limited observations on saturn in the 10th, - 9th whole sign, but 10th given it's proximity to the midheaven degree, this is generally always a strong position which reaps rewards.. i say this when found in 10th solar house as well, which is not the case with archies chart, but just based on my own observation..
Saturn is very strong in the tenth house, see Srila Prabhupada horoscope for an example. In digbala, Sa is traditionally strongest in the 7th.
In Archie's chart, this is simply blown away by other conditions that weaken it, especially the exact affliction by Ketu. It's a grave configuration.


so, what does strong and weak really mean?
I would have to write a couple of chapters to cover the systematic rules determining weak and strong planets and houses but in a nutshell.
A strong planet can easily promote it's natural and particular significations.
A weak planet cannot... or only to the degree of its strength.
I personally don't like the terms strong and weak and malefic and benefic etc. They don't describe reality in many instances. For example, we speak of a planet in the sixth house as badly placed and weak, but to presuppose this means it won't function well is a grave mistake. Let's say its the 10th lord in the 6th, everything else being equal, this could simply mean that the professional life would just have more disputes than ordinarily encountered and they would win more than lose.
Weak planets are more pre-occupied than feeble, more distracted than focused in my opinion. Again could write a whole chapter on the whole benefic/malefic, strong/weak thing.


lets look at another royal british family chart... based on this concept of planets in early and late degrees, the chart would imply a lot of ''weakness' in some regards, maybe offset by the strength of a few of the planets in exaltation...the fact that queen elizabeth has ruled for as long as she has it testimony to something strong in her chart! it can't be the ruler of her ascendant, or the ascendant degree, lol... what must it be?? i guess we can fall back on mutual reception.. that's it, lol...
Therese has given a good exposition on the navamsas role so no need to go there, but heres a few quick observations on the natal...
neecha (fallen) Ju asc ruler is exactly conjoined with exalted Ma right on the exaltation degree of Mars and both rule good houses; this conjunction really magnifies Ju.
Moon is strong in the 8th.
Sun is exalted owns the ninth and in the fifth house.
Mercury is neecha (fallen) but Ju aspects the tenth house and Ju/Ma in Vi in D9.
Saturn is magnified in the 12th due to ruling the third house, highest exaltation Ma helps too, which in turn raises ordinary Ve in Aq besides.
The Nodal axis falling across the asc/desc causes some trouble but the strength of all of her other planets keeps this to minimum to mostly bother her in their dashas and transits.


it seems to me astrology is very subjective in picking and choosing what to apply and when...
Shivas curse...
Not neccesarily, there are systems that cut through lots of the background noise. That's why I believe to learn Jyotish a teacher(s) are necessary.
Om namah Shiva
As Sgt shultz would say on the old Hogan's Hero's tv show, "I know nothing... noth_ing."


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james_m



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Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for your many comments aj.. i appreciate it!

i think one has to figure out a lot of it for themselves starting with their own chart and working with charts of people they know really well.. it becomes more nebulous when looking at people we don't know... that is my impression.. this is another reason astro research is helpful. i see queen elizabeth as this person who has been able to hold it all together for what seems like forever... it would be a real challenge to hold this mask up for as long as she has, but she clearly has a talent for it! mask - saturn.. it has probably been very difficult too, but of that we hear nothing or very little..

it is interesting some of the theories i am being given on the importance of the navamsha in connection with the rasi chart... in this chart - clearly moon is strong by being in cancer rasi and on the ascendant via the navamsha chart... it all seems to put emphasis on the 8th - holding onto ones inheritance with tenacity! but then there is saturn in the navamsha on rasi moon implying a strong burden that goes with it too..

i am going to have to look at a lot more charts before i can say much with confidence when utilizing both the d1 and d9 charts..

thanks for your comments
james
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, AJ, for your excellent exposition of principles and pathways in India's astrology. James, you have our own personal guru here for the moment in AJ. I had started to reply to questions in your posts, but am letting them go for now as there have been new inroads on my time. So for now I'll limit my remarks to one area.

James wrote:
Quote:
Here is another one - retrograde planets.. if you read most traditional astrology, retro is considered a serious liability.. indian astrology seems to view this noticeably different... who is right, or is there some truth in both perspectives that require a deeper understanding? presently i think the later, but i have nothing to prove it to you.. in order to understand something better i think one needs to understand all the moving parts!
(...)
how about Moon, Saturn and Mars are stronger at night then in the day and etc. etc. ??

Of course these thoughts and others you expressed, James, describe the complexity of Jyotish, and astrology in general. These are the reasons Krishnamurti and S.P. Khullar give for the discovery/development of their systems. Khullar expressly ignores the complexities of Jyotish such as retrograde planets, combustion and even aspect theory.

Chart analysis in his system relies solely on the inter-relationships of planets and houses, as manifested in concrete events such as marriage, childbirth, love-money-health more or less, and the outline of life periods based on Dasas and sub-periods. Krishnamurti talked sometimes about personal reactions (good or bad) depending on small events happening in time.

From what I understand, Khullar has been the object of much criticism in India for his work, as he forsakes so much of classical Jyotish. This is why out of curiosity I’ve returned to testing the KP/Khullar systems as I no longer work with clients. Using minute areas of the zodiac (down to as little as two astrological minutes) is supposed to reflect the influence of Nadi astrology in the KP/Khullar systems. In recent years I've also taken the by-way of studying the translations of early western classical texts and comparing principles to India's astrology.

I will add one very important principle to AJ's experienced and practical comments on India's astrology: The student and practicing astrologer must have an excellent memory. Otherwise one easily becomes lost at sea. With the requisite memory an individual builds his astrological palace through observation and experience spanning his entire life. If the majority of charts studied remain in memory, they provide a solid foundation for future work, and certain principles fall naturally into place.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
....there have been new inroads on my time. So for now I'll limit my remarks to one area.

Therese: I hope this does not mean your going away? but that you will still drop in from time to time I hope. The KP/Khuller insights have been very fascinating to me as well as your knowledgeable penetrations into astrology.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ, no I'm not going away, but I'm under a Uranus transit at this time (and those Uranus transits are REAL, which is why many astrologers in India have started to use the trans-Saturnian planets), and life keeps throwing curve balls which are eating up time.

Also I meditate daily (Yogananda's Kriya Yoga), and it seems that my natural inclination now is right brain intuitive spiritual processes, so that disciplined study is more and more difficult. Is this my age or the effects of meditation? I'm not sure at this time. The change in emphasis has definitely come from Uranus. A few months ago I finished a technical paper that took lots of time and disciplined research. I don't think I could write that paper now. I'd like to send you and James a copy of the paper which is on the origin of the sidereal zodiac, but I have to wait until it's published. Editors of the British Correlation have the paper.

If you're interested I'd also like to send you and James a collection I put together from sources that mention or discuss the Indian Equal House system. If you'd like to see these references, please send your personal email address to: eastwest9@snowcrest. net

I'd love to keep researching KP/Khullar astrology, but some days I seem to be living in the astral dimension. I tire rather easily now which is why I'm not replying to many comments I would have enjoyed writing about a year or two ago. Thank you for asking, AJ. I'm so glad you are here to discuss Jyotish with James.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,

thanks for your many comments and on your perspective at this moment in time regarding the different systems, and systems within the different disciplines - like indian or western astrology...

to use an analogy - astrology for me has been like growing up in a multicultural community... there was no one way, just a lot of different ways... i notice a lot of parallels and cross over ideas that i have read before in western astrology, appearing in my reading of indian astrology.. this is one key consideration that makes the study of indian astrology slightly easier.. i am not saying i know that much and am reminded of lao tzu's saying to the effect - the further you go, the less you know!!! this is certainly true in life and in astrology... aj calls it shivas curse.. i just call it living life as applied to astrology!

outside my window is a trapeze artist... he has jumped from the trellis to the oak tree.. i think acquiring knowledge or acorns, as the case may be, is a lot like this.. a lot of it, you have to throw away too.. memory is retained when you see something that works.. it is like being stung by a bee, or touching something that is too hot - you remember! you retain astrology insight based on seeing a technique and approach that works..

therese, thanks for your kind gesture of receiving your papers and research that are in the process of being published... i am presently swamped with too much reading at present... another poster here on skyscript - astroart - gave me a pdf of abu ma'shars book - ALBUMASAR IN SADAN, which i have yet to read as well! i am slightly obsessed with the navamsha books that i have read and am in the middle of reading... i am going to make a post on some of what i have found out, but it is mostly being made aware of different navamsha techniques, without being able to apply them just yet...

in the example of queen elizabeths chart with navamsha chart, i wonder how much the two of you factor in saturns full aspect to mars, jupiter and the midheaven?? this aspect is repeated in the natal chart as well - minus the midheaven... from what i gather - and this is just dogma from someones comments in a book talking - saturn in cancer in the navamsha, lessens the strength of saturn in the natal chart... it sure seems to me the 8th house is emphasized thanks moons rulership of the 8th and by it being in cancer in the natal chart and on the ascendant in both the natal and navamsha chart.. well, it is a thread on the royal family after all and the topic of much conversation internationally too with different people divided on the whole concept of continuing this tradition of maintaining the royal family as head of the gov't, especially of the different ''commonwealth'' countries that have even had some changes of this system too.. queen elizabeth has hung in for the long haul and overseen a lot of changes since her reign officially began - feb 6th 1952.... that is a long gig! 67 years to be exact!!
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AJ



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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:

in the example of queen elizabeths chart with navamsha chart, i wonder how much the two of you factor in saturns full aspect to mars, jupiter and the midheaven?? this aspect is repeated in the natal chart as well - minus the midheaven... from what i gather - and this is just dogma from someones comments in a book talking - saturn in cancer in the navamsha, lessens the strength of saturn in the natal chart... it sure seems to me the 8th house is emphasized thanks moons rulership of the 8th and by it being in cancer in the natal chart and on the ascendant in both the natal and navamsha chart.. well, it is a thread on the royal family after all and the topic of much conversation internationally too with different people divided on the whole concept of continuing this tradition of maintaining the royal family as head of the gov't, especially of the different ''commonwealth'' countries that have even had some changes of this system too.. queen elizabeth has hung in for the long haul and overseen a lot of changes since her reign officially began - feb 6th 1952.... that is a long gig! 67 years to be exact!!

Did not spend a lot of time on this chart I must admit. Only came at it from the strength angle but these are great observations James. The "traditional" theme with Saturn and QEII certainly stand out now that you mention it.
The square to Mars and Jupiter usually wouldn't count as a full aspect but I would consider it a 75% if it were just a little closer in orb. The natal sextile to the ascendant is certainly a full aspect in my book, not all Jyotishis consider out of sign aspects though. To me, Sa in the 8th house in navamsa is only weak for the purposes of the D9, or dharma, spouse and general fortune but dharma would fit in with your delineation. The Queens dharma has been to sustain/defend the anachronism of the monarchy. [As an aside, I think the Duchess of Sussex in the coming years is going to upset the royal applecart, actually a lot.] The D9 asc being the same as the natal does make the D9 more notable to the natal. Maybe equally significant as the Sa/Mo/8th connection is the D9Nodes falling across 1/7axis afflicting D9Su (leadership/royalty) ruling the D9/9th house (dharma) as well as the D9Mo/asc of mind.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks aj,

i am curious about your 'aside' comment..



the 10th lord in rasi - mars, is in the 12th and squares onto the 9th lord jupiter.. it also squares onto her ascendant-descendant lords too..

meanwhile in the navamsha chart which has the same ascendant - the same planets under the mars aspect in the rasi chart appear in the 10th, while mars is in the 9th.. mutual reception is happening between the 9th and 10th lord..

again, i don't know that much about reading these charts yet..
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