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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Sidereal Rectification - Royal Family
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 187

Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
thanks aj,

i am curious about your 'aside' comment..

the 10th lord in rasi - mars, is in the 12th and squares onto the 9th lord jupiter.. it also squares onto her ascendant-descendant lords too..

meanwhile in the navamsha chart which has the same ascendant - the same planets under the mars aspect in the rasi chart appear in the 10th, while mars is in the 9th.. mutual reception is happening between the 9th and 10th lord..

again, I don't know that much about reading these charts yet..

I hold grave misgivings about the Cancer rising chart for the duchess. I can't use that chart to explain my "aside" comment. I haven't had enough time to put all reasonings together but once I do I'll post them here.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
to use an analogy - astrology for me has been like growing up in a multicultural community... there was no one way, just a lot of different ways... i notice a lot of parallels and cross over ideas that i have read before in western astrology, appearing in my reading of indian astrology.. this is one key consideration that makes the study of indian astrology slightly easier..

Or these parallels can cause confusion, such as the characteristics of the Tropical so-called four elements being copied to India's astrology. I've posted on this error before, and already books being published in India are including copied Tropical interpretations of these "elements." (The paper I mentioned above sets the record straight, as classical texts never linked these four elements to Rasis.)
Quote:

... another poster here on skyscript - astroart - gave me a pdf of abu ma'shars book - ALBUMASAR IN SADAN, which i have yet to read as well!

I wouldn't even try to read Abu Ma'shar in a PDF, unless that particular text is very brief.

Quote:
I am slightly obsessed with the navamsha books that i have read and am in the middle of reading... i am going to make a post on some of what i have found out, but it is mostly being made aware of different navamsha techniques, without being able to apply them just yet...

The most scholarly and in-depth expositions of the Navamsa are in two books by C.S. Patel: Navamsa in Astrology, Sagar Publications, 1997-2015 and Predicting Through Navamsa and Nadi Astrology, Sagar Publications, 1996-2016. I haven't seen the two books you mentioned so far, but if they are published after Patel's first edition books, those books should be given as references.

Indian authors are often very deficient in giving credit to past authors. I hope the author(s) of the books you are reading give the references they used. I'd like to see a list of the full author, title and publication information on the books you have mentioned as I gave here for Patel's books. Also if the author(s) list references and a bibliography. Thank you if you have time for this!
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1381
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Quote:
I hold grave misgivings about the Cancer rising chart for the duchess. I can't use that chart to explain my "aside" comment. I haven't had enough time to put all reasonings together but once I do I'll post them here.

AJ, I'm very much interested in what you have to say about the Duchess's chart! In the meantime I hope to find time to check the Khullar rectification.

As a side note, your posts are much easier to read (larger font) when you place your comments outside the quote box that quotes others. Sometimes you do this, and sometimes not.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 187

Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
your posts are much easier to read (larger font) when you place your comments outside the quote box that quotes others. Sometimes you do this, and sometimes not.

I know, I did those inside the quotes with my smartphone where it is much harder to manipulate the text... It was just easier with the small screen. I will try and avoid that.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been wanting to comment on the difference in perspective between studying and analyzing astrology and charts, and the actual client-astrologer setting. When an astrologer is working with a client, an invisible psychic connection exists between the two. This connection helps the intuitive astrologer to zero in on parts of the chart that relate specifically to the client among the numerous chart patterns.

The scientific study of astrology is much more difficult because there are so many diverse factors to consider. The student is faced with myriad possibilities of each planet's expression. It takes a very different type of mind to make sense of research in astrology compared to the intuitive/psychic response in client situations. At this time astrology is badly in need of left brain research capabilities to help sort out the relevant from what really doesn't work. Such as, are there really two valid zodiacs?? Or not? Unfortunately those with left brain capabilities aren't attracted to astrology.

P. S. AJ, you typed all of that text on a smartphone??!!!
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aj regarding the duchess chart - i am still curious why you hold the thoughts you do.. let me know if you are up for it.. thanks.

Therese Hamilton wrote:

The most scholarly and in-depth expositions of the Navamsa are in two books by C.S. Patel: Navamsa in Astrology, Sagar Publications, 1997-2015 and Predicting Through Navamsa and Nadi Astrology, Sagar Publications, 1996-2016. I haven't seen the two books you mentioned so far, but if they are published after Patel's first edition books, those books should be given as references. !


therese, it seems to be a feature of sagars publications that a list of references and etc. is not a part of the deal... of all the sagar books i have, very few have much in the way of references.. that book on the nakshatras by prash trivedi is an exception.. that might be due the fact sagar put it out around 20 years ago... maybe they thought it was worthwhile then, but not so much now.. maybe send sagar a note!~

i repeat - the 2 books on navamsha are
charisma of navamsha (composite vedic and nadi approach) - raj kumar.. sagar pub. 2013 first edition
predict with navamsha - v.p.goel. sagar pub...2017.

no mention of other books on navamsha in these 2 books as i recall and definitely not in some organized way like at the front or back of book..

i am going to get the books you mention and am looking forward to reading as much as i can on navamsha... goels book is the best so far.. i have another 2 of his books coming in the mail.. Comprehensive Prediciton by Divisional Charts: An original research work 2012 and Predict With Dashamsha 2017..

https://www.vedicbooks.net/predict-comprehensively-through-divisional-charts-p-16694.html
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 187

Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

P. S. AJ, you typed all of that text on a smartphone??!!!

I use speechnotes but have to go back and edit it some. Enunciation has to be pretty spot on though. but I'm not really typing much.


Last edited by AJ on Thu May 23, 2019 2:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1381
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
i repeat - the 2 books on navamsha are
charisma of navamsha (composite vedic and nadi approach) - raj kumar.. sagar pub. 2013 first edition
predict with navamsha - v.p.goel. sagar pub...2017.

no mention of other books on navamsha in these 2 books as i recall and definitely not in some organized way like at the front or back of book..

i am going to get the books you mention and am looking forward to reading as much as i can on navamsha... goels book is the best so far.. i have another 2 of his books coming in the mail.. Comprehensive Prediciton by Divisional Charts: An original research work 2012 and Predict With Dashamsha 2017..

Thanks, James. I see that I have the Divisional Chart book in my bookcase, but I haven't been able to spend time with it yet. You are certainly piling on the books in your study of India's astrology! Try not to get "intellectual indigestion!"
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,

i think this is why astrologers today will pick and choose what they think is of value to them.. one can talk of a discipline, but in fact unless one has a teacher who is guiding them as both you and aj have talked about - this is what autodidacts do.. anyone who suggests this is the wrong way to go are not living in the real world as i see it..

i read a lot.. i also try to apply what ideas i am given in a concrete way to see if they hold value or not.. i remain receptive to ideas, but as aj also pointed out - the curse of shiva - is alive and well with astrologers and i am no exception to this!

i look forward to reading that book on divisional charts by v.p. goel.. he had a lot of interesting things to say in his book on navamsha.. here is a profile on him..
https://jyotish.com/speaker/v-p-goel/

it would seem that both navamsha books are by authors who are schooled in jaimini.. for someone like myself who can't tell the difference between parashara and jaimini it is a bit daunting to know what is what, even thought aj and the book 'light on life' advised against doing both schools... someone like me buying books out of curiousity to know more has no way of knowing what the differences are really.. i mean, i can partly intuit some of it, but probably missing a lot more..

again - the reality is, most folks are not going to be getting a guru to help them know what is what.. i continue to believe there are countless ways of learning and even learning the wrong way can be helpful if a person is persistent and receptive to new ideas and ways of learning about astrology... some might say, well james - your moon is in the wrong nakshatra in late libra or early scorpio ( really late or really early degree - all bad, lol) and it happens to rule your 9th house rasi so you are screwed either way! i find astrological jargon just that... one has to get past the superficial.. to do that is difficult, but if folks think they know something based on the superficial - i don't believe they do.. i would include myself in this too...

how is that for getting off topic? lol! i am presently still reading 300 combinations.. these yogas are interesting.. i can see the rationale for some of them.. as for the navamsha book by goel that i just finished i am going to find a chart to use as an example for the vish navamsha concept that goel talked about... i wanted to use julian assanges chart, but i am a bit leary as their is no confirmed birth cert for it.. 5 minutes on a rasi chart in his instance only changes the ascendant by about 1 degree... but when you take this same chart and change the time 5 minutes for the navamsha is alters the ascendant by about 12 degrees so one can see how critical an accurate birth time is when working with divisional charts..
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
Again - the reality is, most folks are not going to be getting a guru to help them know what is what.. i continue to believe there are countless ways of learning and even learning the wrong way can be helpful if a person is persistent and receptive to new ideas and ways of learning about astrology.

Traditionally in India a student sat at the feet of a Guru to learn astrology. But these days of the Internet and countless books, articles and videos, I think learning has to be broader than simply having a personal guru. It does help to attend workshops (more than a single lecture) by different teachers if these are available to the student.

I do believe in astrological certification here in the west, which is available in the Tropical community. Otherwise with all the new translations of historical texts, new methods and discoveries, the student is likely to have large blanks in understanding. It's too easy for students to read a few books, watch a few videos and hang out the consulting shingle to attract clients.

For Jyotish there are recognized schools in India, but these are usually geared to a particular type or approach to astrology. I think if I was younger, I might devise a study outline for students, fundamentals first with the best texts followed by specialty studies.

Anyway, the Internet and forums are here, a great place to bring questions. This is the new way of learning along with personal study and reading and attendance at workshops if available.

Quote:
I wanted to use julian assanges chart, but i am a bit leary as their is no confirmed birth cert for it.. 5 minutes on a rasi chart in his instance only changes the ascendant by about 1 degree... but when you take this same chart and change the time 5 minutes for the navamsha is alters the ascendant by about 12 degrees so one can see how critical an accurate birth time is when working with divisional charts..

For study purposes, it's best to stay with AA rated data. There's not much sense in speculation. We can't really learn that way.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:

Quote:
I wanted to use julian assanges chart, but i am a bit leary as their is no confirmed birth cert for it.. 5 minutes on a rasi chart in his instance only changes the ascendant by about 1 degree... but when you take this same chart and change the time 5 minutes for the navamsha is alters the ascendant by about 12 degrees so one can see how critical an accurate birth time is when working with divisional charts..

For study purposes, it's best to stay with AA rated data. There's not much sense in speculation. We can't really learn that way.

James you are quite right divisional charts (Vargas) are very sensitive to time changes. Only take your analysis up to D-12 even with a documented birth time, unless it has been tested by rectification and some accurate predictions. Beyond D-12, I would only use the position of the lord of the D-chart and the natural significators of the concerned area of life. The time-sensitive ascendant in D-charts could be misleading in the higher divisionals beyond D-12. For example, Bhamsha, the D27 changes every 2-3 minutes.

If you are doing degree comparisons with the D charts then accurate BT is even more critical.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This message moved to Navamsa topic.
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10502

James, I copied your response, but had to include it in my message as only moderators can move other people's posts. Hope that's O.K.

I typed this message and the next one in my word processor, then posted the messages under the wrong topic, so moved them just now.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sun May 26, 2019 8:55 pm; edited 10 times in total
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james_m



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Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks therese!

i agree with all that you say - especially the part about conformists and revolutionaries!!

cheers
james
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Quote:
If you are doing degree comparisons with the D charts then accurate BT is even more critical.

Which means that divisional charts can be used for rectification, especially the navamsa, such as Queen Elizabeth's navamsa Jupiter comes to the ascendant degree at the zenith (nonagesimal) of her natal chart. I've tested these precise navamsa conjunctions to natal equal cusps, and they seem to work well. (Krishnamurti ayanamsa)
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu May 30, 2019 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Getting back on track for this topic on the rectification of Megan’s chart, I can give an example of how Archie’s birth time as given links to his mother, but I think it best if after this post to start a new topic on the Khullar system of rectification.

I didn’t know what to do about the difference in seconds of time between Khullar True Astrology software and other programs, so for the time being I decided to stay within the TA program which is very specific about seconds of time. Theoretically, TA should be the most accurate since seconds of time are important in the Khullar system.

In the KP/Khullar systems each house cusp and planet has four divisions: Sign lord, Nakshatra (Star) lord, the Star divided into nine and then that subdivision divided into nine more very small segments of minutes and seconds (sub-sub or SSL for sub-sub lord).

A Khullar rectification principle says that the Ascendant must reflect the Moon’s star lord. For the given clock time of Megan’s birth (4:46 am) according to TS software, Megan’s SSL planet, Rahu, fulfills this requirement since Rahu is in Cancer, and thus reflects the Moon, Megan’s star lord.

For rectification the Khullar system also uses what is called “genitical” connections between parents and children and brothers and sisters. The Khullar system says that the the SSL lord of the 4th house has to reflect the Mother’s Moon star lord. So if we take Archie’s birth time as given (Asc 18Aries24–-TA software), we look at the 4th cusp. I’m using the equal cusp system, which I can talk more about in a separate topic.

Archie’s 4th cusp SSL lord is Saturn:
(extends from 18Can00'15" to 18Can15'22", about 15 astrological minutes, 1/4th of a degree)

Such small divisions according to Khullar embody the principles of India’s Nadi astrology.

As this 4th house SSL lord planet must reflect his mother’s star lord, the Moon, we move to Megan’s chart. We see that Saturn’s star lord is the Moon, so according to Khullar, this establishes the link of mother and son, and thus helps to pinpoint a valid time of birth:

Archie’s 4th SSL lord is Saturn.
In Megan’s chart, Saturn’s star lord is the Moon (Saturn in Hasta) her Moon’s star lord.

As we wait for AJ's analysis of Megan's chart (possibly Gemini rising?), in the meantime I'll try to start a topic on the Khullar system of rectification. I will say that at the moment Meghan's chart isn't checking out in relation to Archie's (Megan's 5th cusp), so her chart would have to be adjusted somewhat to bring her first child into the picture. This adjustment actually spans late Gemini into 30+ minutes of Cancer.
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