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Tell me why this is a "No"

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Joined: 19 Sep 2014
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Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 8:19 am    Post subject: Tell me why this is a "No" Reply with quote

I asked this question a few days ago and although I am hoping for a "yes" in reality, I'm sure that the chart must be a "no" and I want to know in that case why.
The question is, after we discussed marriage, will he propose (at some point). The discussion itself was inconclusive but the first time we have discussed my wishes and the first time I've heard his thoughts on the matter. I am curious if the discussion will lead to him proposing or just more status quo. As a note, I am now 8 months pregnant with his child, which he is welcoming and supportive about, and we have a very positive relationship. I would like for the sake of our son for us to be in an official relationship but it takes two to tango.

This is my take:
He is the Descendent 7th house, therefore he is Moon and not me. He's sitting in his 2nd house of income, what he is mostlyiworried/thinking about. He is at the end of the term of Venus, (our future child), moving to term of Jupiter and in Virgo, so somewhat mutable.
I am 1H Saturn, strong in my own house (but next to yucky south node). I suppose my co ruler is Pluto if we want to go that far. I'm also in term of our son/Venus.

Aspects: Saturn trines moon in 4 degrees but without reception.
So either lack of reception with the trine means NO
or in 4 somethings he would propose. If you use the horary timing chart, I think it suggests 4 weeks, which is why I somewhat doubt the chart validity. [Succeedent house/mutable sign of VIrgo = months. ANgular House (1) and Cardinal sign (Cap) is days).]
Four weeks from now is when I'm due to giver birth. If its longer (Saturn is after all pretty slow!) then four months from now is September. Our son will arrive late June. I'm not sure why suddenly in September he woudl propose but not now, before the birth.
[Him/Sun is also trining Pluto but in Zero degrees so i'm pretty sure we ignore that aspect.]
Also the question is about *proposing*, not getting married, because where we live, if you want to get married, you put in an application and have to wait 30 days to actually go sign papers. So for example if he proposed today, we could not officially get married until June 18th.

Moon will trine North Node first and then later South node in case that's relevant.

Any thoughts? Note that I asked a chart 3 years ago with a shorter timeline (will we marry by September that year) and that was a no, and waybread (if she is here) commented at the time on the chart. A lot has changed since then (meeting the families, getting pregnant, etc) so I have asked this question now without a timeline bc my question is will he ultimately (at some point and if so when) propose.

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Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Polina -

Aspects: Saturn trines moon in 4 degrees but without reception.

According to Bonatti, a trine does not require reception for perfection, especially when the quesited applies:

Would you mind linking the original chart? The original chart was for a particular time, correct? I am always a little skeptical of repeat questions and I think this chart is kind of red flagging with some signs of dark thoughts at midnight.

Do you have emphasized Moon-Saturn or Saturn-Venus in synastry or composite as shown here? To me, Moon-Saturn relationships are quite loyal but are one of the most difficult and represent a lot of either external or internal factors that come between you and it makes it more difficult to feel close. It can even show physical distances. It is also common in those with large age differences or other major differences (culturally, religiously, etc.) that lead to some difficulties or emotional disconnect. While a trine is a nice aspect, Saturn in particular is a heavy planet that Moon tends to take on pretty hard. Saturn here does not receive Moon to make the aspect easier. Moon is essentially dignified by triplicity but is debilitated in the 8th, suggesting a desire and capabilities on a fundamental level for partnership but that the environment is not hospitable for whatever reason. This would suggest potential with difficulty, IMO. Potential is highlighted also by Moon-Sun trine, from the 5th, a good aspect in most charts (it gives life to a matter, probably in part due to the child). Saturn is very difficult at night though and suggests the querent may be causing some self defeat around the issue, etc. I had a longer winded response I edited down. I feel like there is a lot going on in this chart but it is not my chart to analyze and I don't want to butt my head into personal matters. Deb always hated personal romance questions because they are an emotional issue. The forums are more so for astrological questions and sharing knowledge also rather than personal readings.

I am not sure I am understanding the question and the approach - to tell you why it says no. You asked the question a few days ago. If there is an assumption of there being a no, I am not sure I understand the need for a chart. I think the post/title aligns very well with a sign of Saturn rising and Saturn in the 1st (square Venus too!) though. Personally, without astrology, I think you did the right thing in discussing this with him openly. You did not mention his thoughts on the matter, only that he had some and they were inconsistent. Hopefully he gave some indication of there being a possibility.

Congrats on the new baby coming!
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Posted: Fri May 17, 2019 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tanit,
First, thank you truly for the reply. I appreciate it. Second, thank you so much for your congrats on our son)) I am excited and nervous. It has been a lifelong dream of mine)

I will post a link to the previous chart. I checked and I had asked in 2016 just after we started living together, with a deadline of "by Sept 2017". The link is here:

I presumed that that chart had "expired" since I put an end date in the question itself ie "will we marry by September 2017". And 2017 has now long passed. But maybe if you look you can shed some light. Since other events have taken place, I asked a new one, but if the first is "more valid" then I want to know based on that, if he is going to propose (at some point, ever) or not. That first chart showed a "no" in any case.

I worded my question because I presume there is a "no" here, based on 1) the fact that we've been together for 3 years, 2) based on his comments the other night, 3) based on no hints at proposing prior to our convo 4) based on what I know about male psychology concerning marriage (and i've read a LOT about it) and 5) based on what i know about his chart & how he views marriage/women in general/and my role in his life. He didnt outright refuse, but he didnt' say he thought we would either. He said "let's approach this rationally" to which I said "everything I am saying right now is entirely rational." We have a child on the way, we've been together for 3 years, and will stay together after the birth. He's close to me, we live in harmony and love together. There's not much irrational about that :-). I know from his discussions of future plans that he's not planning on jumping ship and he sees a future with us. But the issue of marriage, never comes up.

We are from 2 different cultures but I've lived in his country for...14 years now. So there's not a gigantic barrier. I speak to him in his language every day and he's fluent in English now too. My relatives in the US say that I've become one of the inhabitants of his country ie they dont really see me as American anymore )) for whatever it's worth).


I would be really shocked if he did...BUT this is also the first time I ever brought it up and planted the seed in his mind. So based on that, I thought there is a chance he will think it over as the days go on and maybe decide to propose. (he is not really one to make a decision fast, and typically if i suggest something, if he agrees to it, he only comes back later as if it were his idea in the first place :-)). When we spoke, I explained that a) I wanted to marry b) I thought it was important not just for me but for our son and c) what I think it means when a man proposes (as well as what it means when a man does not). Given what my partner has gone through, I have not brought this up in the past because I'm not for pressuring or rocking the boat. There are also complications with his ex which I believe is still a huge barrier for us. But with our son on the way I at least wanted him to know that to ME this is important. He can decide to never marry me, it's his perogative. But i will be explaining to our son later that I dont think this is the right thing to do with a woman you love. I respect his decision but my feelings also count.

You ask about Moon/Saturn. I checked our Synastry just now, and we actually dont have any Moon/Sat aspects (!) Maybe that is a bad thing too if there is no aspect, not even a negative one? But wait. I checked composite. It has Moon Square Saturn. With a 5 degree orb. ANd Moon Square Venus as well (Saturn is in between both of them, ie they form half of a box at the top of our composite). Ouch...So - you are very astute!!! Shocked

[For what its worth, not that this woudl counteract those squares, but we have his Vertex on my Sun. And my Neptune on his vertex. I just read that those are "fated feeling" aspects.]

Also btw you're not prying. I"m happy to provide context but I tend to try not to do that unless requested, as often it sends threads off into pscyhological advice territory when really I want to know what the stars say: yes or no.

So, I am wondering why, if say the chart (this one or any) showed a trine without reception, if it is a Yes or a NO. I presume that this is a No (because why would my dream come true?!) and I guess your explanation, if it ends up being a no, is that the Saturn and Moon dont really see each other so the trine isnt powerful enough (or something) given the nature of those 2 planets plus I guess if one considers that it is echoing the square in the composite (only here its a trine). (?) Or, can one say that the composite takes priority over a temporary horary, would that be reason for a "no"?

The marriage issue is more one of his psychological scars - in fact that was the only reason he gave for not marrying now. He said he doesnt like that the government is running his life (due to the financial obligations he now has under the law to a woman he is no longer with and who continues to milk him dry long past the divorce decree has concluded its terms). And he asked how getting married would change our rel'ship dynamic, and I said "I hope it won't change it at all" (bc thats not the goal, our relship is great) but it is something that is important to me and that I feel would give our son a structured setting. I was raised traditionally and I"m not for living together for years on end without marriage. Men benefit from that but women do not. (And btw this isnt about cash or money. I had offered him a prenup. I'm not interested in funding from him due to marriage. I'm interested in an expression, official/public/social/evan maybe religious, and for our son, of his commitment to me). But i'm also not going to pressure for it because the paper in and of itself is not the goal, it's the psychological meaning of the step (If it wasn't such a big deal, then why not do it?) and my perception of how men express love and commitment....I coudl go on (but i wanted to keep this focused so I left all that out of the first comments).
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Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

is there a reason you can't propose to him? ... just the fact that you want your son to be legitimate
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Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The other horary had a lot of issues - early ascendant and late Moon (although within orb of Sun). My main worry is that you have asked many questions about him and the chart's information could be diluted. Hopefully that is not the case. Since you made efforts to speak to him about marrying, it seems more likely the chart would be better formed.

So, I am wondering why, if say the chart (this one or any) showed a trine without reception, if it is a Yes or a NO. I presume that this is a No (because why would my dream come true?!) and I guess your explanation, if it ends up being a no, is that the Saturn and Moon dont really see each other so the trine isnt powerful enough (or something) given the nature of those 2 planets plus I guess if one considers that it is echoing the square in the composite (only here its a trine). (?) Or, can one say that the composite takes priority over a temporary horary, would that be reason for a "no"?

Since it is your chart, it is up to you to determine if it is a yes or no. If it were a chart I asked and I saw significators like this, I would think it is a yes at least for a plan to marry, but with delay and difficulty and probably after the birth of the child (and maybe with a change of mind by one or both parties in the end). Saturn in general tends to delay things and make things more difficult although the end result is often more satisfactory and lasting for that reason, once difficulty is possibly overcome and addressed properly (if not, then Saturn tends to just keep drudging up the same bad stuff, which can especially surface during difficult Saturn transits, for example, since you have it emphasized together in natal). I don't think Moon and Saturn have trouble "seeing" each other but they are very different from one another and their expectations and needs and Saturn can be hurtful while Moon may overreact and sulk. A trine is harmonious because it shows a shared triplicity (here earth), which shows some common ground on an energy level and earth signs are obviously associated with material things (finances, building a home life together), creating roots, etc. Moon can also be less able to commit square Jupiter, which can show someone compassionate and full of life possibly but also moodiness and wanting more freedom (especially emotional freedom) or some other specific need. Here Jupiter is in the 12th so he may feel that these needs are being ignored for some reason or he does not share them.

When I said there was no reception and Moon especially takes on the aspect harder because of that (not being received by Saturn, as a malefic), my interpretation of that would be that the trine shows mutual love but his lesser dignity compared to yours shows less desire to marry you and the lack of reception shows you each approach from areas where the other may not necessarily benefit the most. That can be an indicator of some mutual disappointment and lack of support on some level (regarding wants/needs), perhaps on the way to marriage but maybe even after. All the more reason for open discussions like you had with him before the question was posed. Since Moon especially is not received and Saturn approaches from Moon's detriment, I think he would view a marriage relationship with you as kind of scary (or at least a big commitment, which is easier for Saturn - Moon is a swift body and in a sign that is not very conducive to marriage - Virgo traditionally emphasized can show preferring to not marry) if I take Saturn's signification literally. Saturn at night can especially be a kind of scary planet and he as the Moon is in the 8th house, attributed to fear and anxiety. I am guessing Saturn coming from a sign Moon does not like is probably because he thinks of marriage in negative ways and maybe one way to overcome this is to help persuade him that is not always the case and how your relationship might be different than what he sees as a bad marriage (if you work together to make that happen, of course). If there are specific issues he sees as problematic, maybe you should both go through these issues ahead of time and workout the best approach and compromises and agree to them together. Hopefully your needs would be met too though.

One thing I did not mention but has come up before in more recent posts is that a retro planet involved can lead to a reversal. Here Saturn is retro so that trine aspect is a bit suspect. I didn't want to say that because it could be a negative signification that is not true. In other words, it could be that marriage looks like it happens only for one or both parties to change their minds. However, since this has been a repetitive topic on your mind, I am questioning that interpretation. Often when the querent is retro, it is they who change their mind or are uncertain. Maybe it just shows your confusion as to what he wants.

Anyway, whatever happens I wish you the best.
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Posted: Wed May 29, 2019 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Tanit,
First and foremost, thanks so much for replying to this thread, and for all your additional insights and details. I can see you are a "natural" at astrology and probably this is more intuitive of an art/science for you than it is for me, so it really helps to receive your views and impressions on a chart, as it is giving me more knowledge on how to interpret the nuances of planet placements and not just the cut-and-dried aspects which is what I tend to usually see.

You mentioned one or the other party changing their minds about marriage as reflected in the Saturn Rx condition in this chart. On my end I can only say I would not change my mind about something this big ))) I have wanted it as much as I've wanted a child for a long time, but until getting pregnant, it was not as crucial for me, and given various factors I truly had to pick my battles and priorities. I'm natally a fixed Sun sign (Aquarius) and I know all of the stereotypes that come with that ("freedom loving" etc), but I've got Cancer rising and I think I have a pretty good feel for most water signs as a result. So if it is plausible to say that the Saturn Rx reflects my confusion about HIS confusion (because, isn't he confused? I think he is) then that's probably the accurate assessment here. I dont know if it is possible that he would propose then change his mind (that would really, really hurt) based o the chart, but since I am Saturn, I'm hoping that's not a possible interpretation.

Your comments on the Moon's condition gave me some keen insights into his hidden mental state on the issue. It might sound silly but it was hard to imagine he would *fear* marriage. I could sort of understand not wanting it, but it's hard for me to understand fearing it, (but then that's bc I personally want it, to me it's a dream to embrace and not a medication to gulp down and then cringe at). He certainly (natal Pisces Sun) is moody and mutable, and he has an odd natal Uranus aspect which is probably why he and I "work" together bc i tend to give space (Aquarius). TThat addresses your "less able to commit" comment on his part. He certainly doesn't speak about needing freedom, I dont know if he feels he wants more than he has now or not, but I doubt it, lately he is tending to "pursue and tend" to me more than before. Also, I tend to leave a long leash as it were, simply bc I know he comes forward more if I do that. It could be that he sees marriage as a "trap" but unlike his exwife, i'm not with him for financial reasons and (ahem) he actually benefits more from being with me in those terms. Although I had outright to him that I am not interested in his money (and would in fact insist on a prenup), after reading your post, I decided I have to bring this up again and address his presumed fears, and spell out reaaaaally basically to him what marriage means, why it's important, what it will change and what it will NOT change between us. I do not feel that his thinking/feeling on this matter is very clear (Moon), but is tarnished with a lot of impressions of what marriage "is" (was), based on a relationship he had that was not healthy. From my POV, his wasn't a "marriage" it was a legal financial contract with a woman who really didn't care about him, his feelings or his heart. To me, that's not what marriage really is about. And, to me, we already have a marriage in the sense that the dynamic of our relationship is ideal in terms of harmony and affection etc. I would just want to make it official, so our son has married parents and not "some girl that dad is living with" or whatever.

In short: Thank you for your input because this gave me not just more information and clarification, but some ideas as to how to further approach the situation. I had not planned to bring it up again, bc the topic is far too sacred and sensitive to me and it is TRULY hard to bring up. (I would rather discuss absolutely anything else, death, sex, you name it). But I am attempting to gather up the courage and the facts to talk about it one last time. There is no way now that we can possibly get married before our son is born. So the question is will he actually see the logic in honoring me and his son with this step (at any point) when we do have this next discussion.

I will post back after we talk. I will hope to have good news, but who knows.
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