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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 63

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:44 am    Post subject: horary basic Reply with quote

1) frustration/prohibition:

Sun will oppose Jupiter but Mercury has already opposed Jupiter and is separating from this opposition. Is the Sun Jupiter opposition prohibited/frustrated by Mercury?

This is basic and I should know but I always thought that the frustrating/prohibition is only when both the planets are applying.
I mean, if both Mercury and Sun were APPLYING to Jupiter then Mercury would be prohibiting the opposition between Sun and Jupiter. But since Mercury has separated from Jupiter already and if a chart is drawn today, then Sun is the only planet applying to Jupiter, so there is no prohibition. Is my understanding correct or wrong?


2) If the next aspect of the Moon is with a planet that is not related to the question but the aspect after that is with the quesited with good receptions then is this still considered a prohibition?
Example. Moon in Pisces is querent. Venus in Taurus is quesited. Moon squares Mercury before it sextiles Venus.


3) Moon void of course: Moon is not void of course in Taurus, Cancer and Sagittarius. The last aspect still holds.
example: Moon in Taurus is not in orbit applying to any other planet right now. It's last aspect is trine Pluto and conjunction Venus. The last aspect to Venus is still in effect. Do you follow this rule?
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 759

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello - keep in mind that Deb does say that Lilly at least does not believe prohibition always denies the matter. It can show delay also (if you read her article on perfection of significators she does mention that there can be some hope).


Quote:
1) frustration/prohibition:

Sun will oppose Jupiter but Mercury has already opposed Jupiter and is separating from this opposition. Is the Sun Jupiter opposition prohibited/frustrated by Mercury?


No. This would be collection or light of Mercury and Sun by Jupiter, bringing whatever they signify separately together by whatever Jupiter represents but in opposition, which is one of the most discordant, if not arguably the most. For prohibition, Sun would be applying to Jupiter but Mercury would also apply to Jupiter and that aspect of Mercury is perfected before Jupiter - this would be prohibition by Mercury for Sun-Jupiter. The aspects need to be applying in the chart at the time of the question but when fast forwarding the chart, you see which planet gets there first. Think of it like two competitors going after the same thing and when you skip ahead in time you see which one beats the other.

Quote:
2) If the next aspect of the Moon is with a planet that is not related to the question but the aspect after that is with the quesited with good receptions then is this still considered a prohibition?
Example. Moon in Pisces is querent. Venus in Taurus is quesited. Moon squares Mercury before it sextiles Venus.


This is prohibition, yes. Mercury would represent something that interrupts or prohibits the influence of Moon and Venus. Mercury is not as difficult to overcome in general as some other influences though, I would argue. Since Moon and Venus are in signs that they do well in and in mutual reception, there might still be some hope there.


Quote:
3) Moon void of course: Moon is not void of course in Taurus, Cancer and Sagittarius. The last aspect still holds.
example: Moon in Taurus is not in orbit applying to any other planet right now. It's last aspect is trine Pluto and conjunction Venus. The last aspect to Venus is still in effect. Do you follow this rule?


Yes. Also Pisces. The Moon is able to function on its own due to the protective influence of those signs and the fact that they are signs more conducive to promise/growth/life in a chart. They are signs of the benefics. Libra does not hold because it is the exaltation of Saturn and also probably due to holding difficult fixed stars and the via combusta. Keep in mind though that this does not mean the chart will have a good outcome just because Moon functions. I would argue in this case Moon carrying the light of dignified Venus is quite good though. Also, even though Moon is in another sign, if it is within 13 degrees 30 of Sun, it is within aspect (although under the beams), as it is now with Gemini Sun at 11 degrees and around 29 degrees Taurus Moon.
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 63

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:


Quote:
1) frustration/prohibition:

Sun will oppose Jupiter but Mercury has already opposed Jupiter and is separating from this opposition. Is the Sun Jupiter opposition prohibited/frustrated by Mercury?


No. This would be collection or light of Mercury and Sun by Jupiter, bringing whatever they signify separately together by whatever Jupiter represents but in opposition, which is one of the most discordant, if not arguably the most. For prohibition, Sun would be applying to Jupiter but Mercury would also apply to Jupiter and that aspect of Mercury is perfected before Jupiter - this would be prohibition by Mercury for Sun-Jupiter. The aspects need to be applying in the chart at the time of the question but when fast forwarding the chart, you see which planet gets there first. Think of it like two competitors going after the same thing and when you skip ahead in time you see which one beats the other.



Thanks Tanit. I am still confused by this part.
When both Mercury and Sun are applying to Jupiter: It's collection.
Then you say if Mercury perfects first then it prohibits Sun/Jupiter opposition, so that's prohibition.
I think it is still collection of light by Jupiter, because it's not possible for two planets to be perfecting at the same time. One will be faster than the other.


You said if both are applying then the faster one prohibits the other. What if the prohibiting planet has applied and separated already at the time the chart is drawn?
Example:
What if I draw a chart today. Mercury has already applied to Jupiter and is now separting. The Sun is applying to Jupiter.
Has Mercury already prohibited the Sun/Jupiter perfection? Or because Sun is the only planet applying right now, it has no prohbition currently?

Quote:
Yes. Also Pisces. The Moon is able to function on its own due to the protective influence of those signs and the fact that they are signs more conducive to promise/growth/life in a chart. They are signs of the benefics. Libra does not hold because it is the exaltation of Saturn and also probably due to holding difficult fixed stars and the via combusta. Keep in mind though that this does not mean the chart will have a good outcome just because Moon functions. I would argue in this case Moon carrying the light of dignified Venus is quite good though. Also, even though Moon is in another sign, if it is within 13 degrees 30 of Sun, it is within aspect (although under the beams), as it is now with Gemini Sun at 11 degrees and around 29 degrees Taurus Moon.


When they say last aspect still holds, I thought the conjunction between Sun and Venus is still in effect. So if Venus was the quesited, then although the Moon is separated from Venus at the time the chart is drawn, the aspect is still in effect and will bring a positive outcome.

Moon in my chart was on Algol and I know for sure this is not good, but my question was for learning purpose. So assuming Moon was not on Algol and Venus was quesited, do you think the last aspect to Venus is still effective?
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 759

Posted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Thanks Tanit. I am still confused by this part.
When both Mercury and Sun are applying to Jupiter: It's collection.
Then you say if Mercury perfects first then it prohibits Sun/Jupiter opposition, so that's prohibition.
I think it is still collection of light by Jupiter, because it's not possible for two planets to be perfecting at the same time. One will be faster than the other.


You said if both are applying then the faster one prohibits the other. What if the prohibiting planet has applied and separated already at the time the chart is drawn?
Example:
What if I draw a chart today. Mercury has already applied to Jupiter and is now separting. The Sun is applying to Jupiter.
Has Mercury already prohibited the Sun/Jupiter perfection? Or because Sun is the only planet applying right now, it has no prohbition currently?


No, Mercury is not stopping Sun from applying to Jupiter if Mercury-Jupiter aspecting is separating, but it would indicate a past influence that has some sort of impact on the outcome via whatever Mercury represents, and again since Sun next applies and Jupiter is the slower planet of all 3, it is collecting the light of Sun, with the separating aspect of Mercury, which brings the energy of Sun and Mercury together via the nature of Jupiter. An opposition, especially without reception is not going to lead to perfection though, according to Bonatti. Jupiter is also currently retrograde in Sag. The opposition from Gemini is going to describe something but it would be very unlikely to lead to whatever is desired in the question. In your hypothetical scenario of a relationship, I highly doubt Mercury in Gemini would even represent a person but more likely a past influence with the quesited involving the querent since the querent is disposited by Mercury and Mercury represents things like communication issues.

Separating aspects are important and describe influences around the matter in some capacity. If you read my "opposition in an argument" thread, I note the influence of separating aspects and how I believe they influenced the matter, for example. A tightly separating aspect might represent something currently that is concluding but typically separating aspects already occured. To use a real life type of example, think of it like a quesited who just concluded a relationship with the separating influence. They have ended the relationship but the influence of that relationship is not over and influences how the quesited relates to the querent in the question. if someone had just concluded a relationship and their significator clearly showed desire to still be with that person, such as via reception and positive aspect, I would find that suspect for the querent. In the case of Mercury and Jupiter in opposition, that is not at all applicable for the querent Sun.

Technically, a separating aspect can still be afflictive enough to inhibit the matter, such as say a difficult aspect with Mars or Saturn that is not mitigated (such as a relationship chart where a quesited is heavily influenced by bad previous relationships or other forces signified by those planets in the chart), but in most cases they are not showing a future event/outcome. You would expect that in most cases if a planetary influence was going to truly stop a planet that it would show an applying aspect, but it can depend. I don't expect in most cases that Mercury would represent something that has enough strength to inhibit an influence via a separating aspect. Mercury by nature is an inferior. I suppose if for some reason Mercury had carried difficult light to Jupiter in a separating aspect, such as if it were conjunct Saturn in Aries and carried that light to Jupiter via difficult aspect, that might show Jupiter being significantly influenced in some way by it, especially by receiving the aspect (Aries is a triplicity sign for Jupiter) but it would be hard for me to believe it would stop Jupiter entirely from being able to perfect an aspect with Sun unless otherwise indicated, such as if Jupiter were debilitated. Jupiter is a superior itself so I don't see it being made to yield to Mercury easily.

Quote:
When they say last aspect still holds, I thought the conjunction between Sun and Venus is still in effect. So if Venus was the quesited, then although the Moon is separated from Venus at the time the chart is drawn, the aspect is still in effect and will bring a positive outcome.

Moon in my chart was on Algol and I know for sure this is not good, but my question was for learning purpose. So assuming Moon was not on Algol and Venus was quesited, do you think the last aspect to Venus is still effective?


Yes, the light of Venus is what Moon would carry in the chart and is also its dispositor, so it is heavily influencing the outcome. In a romance chart, a strong Venus and Moon can be very positive and if the significators are not cadent or otherwise afflicted then it should be a good outcome. Fixed planets also suggest stability in romance. If Moon is afflicted by Algol, that would be something to evaluate but it might describe the querent as not being level headed about the matter. I see Algol a lot in romance horaries where querents exaggerate a situation or assume the worst. It can also show obsession over the situation or over a person (losing one's head over a crush for example). It doesn't necessarily mean doom and gloom but should describe something about the matter and not be ignored.
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 63

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit,
That was a very detailed and clear explanation. Thank you very much.
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