skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Baby victim of infanticide
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 752

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:42 pm    Post subject: Baby victim of infanticide Reply with quote

The newspaper article gave exact time of birth, I was curious what the chart would look like for something so extreme.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7112231/Stoney-Stanton-woman-Hannah-Cobley-29-murdered-newborn-baby-girl-wrapped-body-plastic-bags.html

The Moon is 29 degrees Aries 52 minutes, antiscion 0 degrees Virgo 08 minutes, exactly conjunct the Moon's Mean North Node, and IsisTranspluto. This is a damaged Moon.

Astrodienst didn't have latitude and longitude for Stoney Stanton, Leicestershire, so I used Leicester. Stoney Stanton is quite close to Leicester itself, probably the closest I could get. So the chart angles could be slightly out. Still, the Moon does seem to aspect both chart angles.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 761

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one of those charts where almost everything is either early or late degree and it is difficult to decide if both luminaries are cadent or not (possible lack of hyleg) but I would say probably so and I see no prospective alcoccoden either by using the luminaries (there are some other methods but they are sketchy). Placidus is not great for life expectancy. There is not a hard aspect from the malefics but Moon is combust and trine retro Saturn and in a sign of Mars, Sun is arguably ferile (Moon is within orb but a different sign), and Mars is angular and the benefics rather debilitated (Jupiter in the 8th, Venus with Scheat and afflicted by Saturn). SN is also in the 1st and a lot of these planets are retro, which is not helpful. This chart looks arguably at least most likely 3rd differentia. Some people can survive such debility with significant intervention and usually when that happens there is at least something mitigating in the chart. In Regio, my system of choice, Saturn as asc ruler is also in the 12th, which on its own would not be that bad but add all of the above and none of this is looking very easy.

Chris Brennan said he would do a talk on life expectancy soon but I mainly go off of the article by Bernadette Brady where she summarizes the primary traditional methods. I wonder what Chris would say about the luminaries here and which house system he would use (probably whole sign). I guess it doesn't matter because even if there is hyleg with the luminaries, I don't see an alcoccoden. You need both. Again, there are other methods and I didn't try those only because I think the luminaries are usually sufficient.

My guess is that the best explanation for manner of death is probably Venus conjunct Scheat square Saturn. Venus may rule the 8th and also tends to co rule the mother, and Scheat is associated with murder. Saturn at night is more difficult too and dominates the square via dexter aspect of Venus, which could emphasize cold heartedness. Usually violent deaths are looked at with various lots, though, rather than just planetary significators.

The fact that so many planetary influences are retro and early or late degrees to me shows some major instability in the chart on a basic level and add to that the heavy Saturn influence, Mars angular, debilitated benefics and luminaries arguably not supporting life.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3366
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the one key ingredient for me is moon a few degrees prior to the new moon.. this has been referred to dangerous for births with this end phase of moon cycle.. same deal into the very beginning of the phase too.. i can't remember the reference- might be indian astrology since i have been reading a lot on that lately, but i read this in the past year and if i remember, i will share it here.. moon also rules over the 7th which is typically associated with end of life - death..

here is what it looks like in sidereal... house rulerships change and etc. etc. mars- ruler of the 4th - aries new moon and etc, is in the 5th whole sign in detriment... it in turn is square the north node in the 8th sign, which is in turn ruled by sun in aries.. all points back to mars..saturn - ruler of the chart is in the 12th.. etc. etc..

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 761

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James - in traditional text, hard aspects between Moon and Sun in general are difficult but I would think especially since Moon is luminary of sect and lorded by Mars, which is again angular, is rather difficult for this particular new moon (combustion). You will find people with new moons who live long lives but there is a lot going on here that doesn't help.

In sidereal and whole sign, Sun would be exalted and angular, offering much more life to the chart, so I am not seeing the relevance, personally.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
srsedna



Joined: 22 May 2019
Posts: 9

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a creepy chart, as one would expect. Jupiter as the MC ruler is in the 8th house retrograde, peregrine, unaspected to anything remotely helpful and making a double semi/sesquisquare (13 second orb!) to the MC and nodal axis, while Mars, opposite the MC, is squaring the nodes and in a sesquisquare to Pluto in the 12th (orb is a bit over 1 degree, so it could mean nothing, but still it doesn't help). Saturn rx as ruler of the ASC is under that helpless Jupiter and the moon can't bring anything helpful from that Uranus-Mercury conjunction, because they are all under Mars, which is clearly the strongest planet in this chart (so maybe the nodes do make bad things terrible!). Venus exalted in Pisces couldn't do anything to stop this either. The whole chart looks like the helpless situation of this poor baby!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3366
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tanit,

it is only one part of it.. i certainly wouldn't make any generalizations about all births near a new moon, or full moon for that matter, but i have read this.. when i find the reference, i will share it.. ps - sun in the sidereal chart rules the 8th.. close trine between the moon and north node is a softer version of the conjunction between the 2.. north node is also in the 8th here as well .cheers james
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3366
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tanit,

found it... alexandre volguine in his book 'lunar astrology' discusses the 28 lunar houses, which is separate from the 28 moon mansions... essentially the 28 lunar houses are the phases of the moon but in an expanded form... the last 8 degrees is considered the most malefic moon phase, along with the first 8 degrees of the new moon - the 2nd most malefic.. it is associated with hecate and greek astrology and apparently was the only one remaining phase that has remained with all the others lost to antiquity according to this older system of 28 lunar houses... he goes into hecate moon with examples and etc. etc.. i am not going to quote from the book, but have paraphrased what i read last night here.. for anyone interested - get the book!

further to this - moon is separating from saturn - ruler of the ascendant and in the 12th house using sidereal zodiac.. even better for anyone still reading, let me quote aj's comments to me in a pm for consideration... hopefully aj doesn't mind me sharing this..

"It's a tragic chart... Note that the dasha bukti is ketu/rahu
An early death can occur during the sub-periods of the afflicted and badly placed weak planets if the planets ruling longevity are weak.
Saturn, Lord of 1st in 12th... If the Lagna/Ascendant lord is in the 12th and is afflicted and without a benefic aspect/conjunction this is not good at all. Asc is the prime determinant of longevity. Rahu is afflicting Saturn from the 8th which makes Saturns condition worse and is also afflicting the 12th house itself.
Note the grand trine between the Rahu/Saturn/Mo(Me) that dumps out to Ketu as the pointer. Ketu mutually sextiles Moon and Saturn. Interesting huh?
Rahu is in the 8th and also afflicting the 8th and this will often shorten the life span if not beneficially aspected. There are some notable yogas involving Saturn.
Ava Yoga produced by Saturn being in the 12th and this makes it hard to succeed life and will also shorten life.
Nisswa Yoga where the 2nd lord is in the 12th showing great losses to family and danger from bad company.
Nirbhagya Yoga produced by Saturn aspecting the ninth house blocking fortunes. Jupiter Lord of the sixth of violence is placed here here as well.
Ketu is afflicting the 6th house suggesting explosive violence.
The Nodes are closely afflicting most of the houses in this chart BTW.
The Sun the karaka of vitality is afflicted exalted or not as Rahu spoils his house. The Sun as ruler of the 8th is a FM and the Moon, and Mercury are weak in combustion. The Sun as ruler of the 8th shows the child may be deprived or separated from the mother and happiness (Kuhu Yoga?). The 4th is occupied by FM the Sun which rules death and death like situations.
Mars ruler of the 4th is in detriment and weak since its house, the 4th is afflicted too.
Lonely exalted Venus is just not not strong enough sitting in the third, 9th house lord Mercury is is too damaged by being weak in early degrees, combust. Moon is no help being deeply combust and with FM Sun."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fadi Mazboudi



Joined: 16 Oct 2017
Posts: 40

Posted: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at the aspects from the planets to the angles and cusps of houses:

MAR 0 IC
UR 90 AS
MER 90 AS
MON 90 AS
SN 90 IC
VEN 180 VIII
SAT 90 VIII
_________________
www.FadiMazboudi.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 752

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found a similar case in Astro Data Bank, with AA birth time.
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Azar,_Geneva
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 761

Posted: Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, they are a bit similar but the 8th influences are a bit different, probably because it was the father versus the mother and this child lived 4 months, so the chart is a bit less nascent (without so many early/late indicators). The second one has less emphasis on planets below the earth (planets below is common in the charts of trouble in youth traditionally). This one makes more sense in whole sign (which I do tend to look at for lifespan indicators): ascendant ruler combust in the 12th in aspect with 8th ruler Mars in the 8th. Luminary of sect cadent cannot be hyleg. Moon in the 8th is not good for a second choice of hyleg and is also lorded by the 8th ruler Mars. I would say luminaries are not able to be hyleg, which would suggest at least third differentia without hard aspects to the luminaries by the malefics (unless someone tries to find an alternate method).

One of my relatives lost a child a few days after birth to a rare disease called VLCAD that was misdiagnosed by the doctor, which was not a violent death but was not a peaceful one either - he basically died of malnourishment. I found it odd that Sun did not grant more years (on an angle and trine Jupiter on the ascendant) but it is square angular Mars and Moon is applying to Mars and Saturn in signs of Saturn (Saturn in detriment, retro and out of sect). The malefics also "combine" a bit via sextile. They also have Unukhalai pretty tight on the ascendant, associated with "poisons," which I am sure before modern medicine might be a way to describe how he died. I also know that Lilly does not speak fondly of the late degrees of Capricorn for the Moon in general (or Scorpio or Gemini). Mars is at the same degree as the first chart. Simmonite on death predictors tended to give Uranus a malefic meaning so I guess you could say Sun is stuck between two difficult forces, similar to besiegment. Uranus is influential in all three charts on luminaries (along with the malefics). I don't know time of death but remember it at night 2 days later, so would have been around the new moon on the 27th.

Feb 25, 2006 at 00:13 Chico, Ca

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3366
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fleurs 2nd example via adb - but in sidereal....

as in the first chart, and as tanit notes above- again the first house ruler is in the 12th - sun this time.. meanwhile the moon is in the 8th(by degree) and rules the 12th.. moon applies to the trine of saturn, ruler of the 6/7 houses.. south node is on the ascendant 5 degree aspect.. mars is in detriment in the 8th whole sign and rules the moon as well..



tanits example in sidereal below.



moon in cap applying to saturn in cancer - mutual reception which is supposed to rule out the negatives and appear as a positive.. moon last aspects were 60 mercury - ruler of the 12th and conjunct venus ruler of the 8th... as in the previous example again mars is in detriment in the 8th sign ( 7th by degree), this time and rules the 2/7 houses..

for me, the moon will always going to be a critical factor in the first few years of life..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 761

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
moon in cap applying to saturn in cancer - mutual reception which is supposed to rule out the negatives and appear as a positive..


Deb Houlding told me you don't want mutual reception with a malefic but want the malefic itself to receive the afflicted planet (without the afflicted planet receiving in turn). When you have reception from the luminary to the malefic, it rules out the malefic being "nice" to that planet, even in mutual reception she said. I don't know how that works in sidereal though. An example I always think of where a luminary receiving a malefic is quite bad is in Ted Bundy's chart, where ASC ruler Sun is receiving a very nasty Saturn in the 12th (with Pluto), where the lord of the ascendant is taking on the negative energy of that planet. Obviously his Moon is quite difficult too though. For me it is sometimes hard to distinguish charts of early death, especially violent ones, from those of violent people for this sort of reason. The nasty nature in the chart is taken into the person and expressed outwardly rather than onto the person. It is hard to make the distinction, at least for me.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3366
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks tanit,

i doubt it is any different in sidereal... in fact, looking at the set up in sidereal - moon in cap opp saturn in cancer - the whole thing looks pretty bad, in spite of this concept of mutual reception, so thanks for stating all that.. in fact - saturn in cancer rules both lights here..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Alice Portman



Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 13

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In any powerful event in life or death the angles, correct house cusps and/or Vertex axis are always involved. This has to be so or every child born around the same time would have died.

The Vertex axis is often involved in death charts as it is the doorway to other realities and death is certainly that.

In this baby's chart the Vertex axis is straddling the Koch 8th/2nd houses within half a degree orb. The Vertex axis is conjunct the nodal axis and both are square and midpoint Mars on the IC. Mars on the IC in this configuration suggests a parent was involved.

Mars/Vertex are also making a sesiquadrate midpoint to Pluto in the twelfth, intensifying an already difficult configuration.

Using the same house system the Part of Death is 1Gemini37, conjunct the IC and square the Nodes.

Mercury, as ruler of both the IC and 8th house would be involved and we see that it is in the third house square the Ascendant, which, in turn, carries a Moon/Uranus midpoint, suggesting sudden action by the mother.

The signatures of death are usually clear. I have put those that I have discovered on my website here: http://aliceportman.com/determining-death-from-a-horoscope/


_________________
Alice


Last edited by Alice Portman on Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 164
Location: Stockholm

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even thought there are some points in the chart
that may be relevant for this early death of the baby,
personally it was first by checking the declinations that
it 'clicked' for me...

A heavy setup with asc and MC both in the parallel and contraparallel
with saturn mars and pluto.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated