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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Traditional perspective on adultery charts

 
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 218

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:49 am    Post subject: Traditional perspective on adultery charts Reply with quote

Hello forum

I was reading this skyscript article ( http://www.skyscript.co.uk/affair.pdf )
where the author says that the traditional astrologers like Sahl and Bonatti and Lilly dealt with relationship charts involving questions on cheating in two ways. In the first, they appointed the ascendant to the querent as usual and the 7th house to the quesited and in the second method they did not appoint any significators at all to the querent. The charts were drawn as it were with the ascendant representing the 'life' of the quesited with respect to the question. These are of course very contrasting methods and likely to give completely different answers. Did they explain the reasoning behind one or the other approach?Did they select the 1st vs 7th house for the quesited on the basis of which planet whether the 7L or the 1L described the quesited as well as the circumstances relating to the backstory better? Or did they have some other guidelines as well?

Another point of interest is that the ancients were generally questioned by male clients about the possibility of the women in their lives having affairs with other men. Now since Mars was considered to be significant in such queries and whenever the lord of the quesited was seen joint with Mars it was supposed to be a positive testimony, is it safe to assume that Mars holds good in cases where the querent is a woman and she asks about her man being involved with another woman? Was Mars representative of a person of the male sex in these ancient horaries or was it in general a signifier of sexual or amorous relations? This also came up in one of my recent threads on relational horary significators where Tanit had thrown light on the traditional perspective with regards to Mars in such charts.I was not sure if I should start a new thread or just it to one of my recent threads on relational horaries but I thought a separate thread would be better in the end with a better scope of discussion.I hope to hear what Skyscript astrologers think about these couple of points.

Thanks for reading
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1014

Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Serene - the use of turning the chart for L1 versus L7 does not just occur in this type of chart and we have discussed it in the past here for other types of charts. When I once asked Deb Houlding about a romance chart for someone asked to me where I felt the chart should be turned based on the planetary signification, this was her response:

Quote:
I can't speak for the experience of others, but I don't think there is any need to make life so complicated. The system works really well if we just use tried and tested methods, keep a simple approach, and apply it consistently. The significators should describe appropriately, but we are looking for a temperamental signature that reveals itself in physical description, so it's no problem to have Venus describing a man or Mars describing a woman. In fact, a debilitated Venus is the traditional signification for a male love cheat, or a "charmer" that is also a philanderer. And how else could we get the signification for what Lilly calls a virago - a woman who wears the trousers? This just tells us something about the dynamics of the relationship, and possibly the reason why the ex is an ex.


That being said, the method is sometimes used by Lilly, such as in missing charts too. Deb believes it is best to keep things simple and that is probably true most of the time. I do think there are cases where planetary rulers don't make sense without turning a chart, but you could argue in that case that the chart itself is suspect and maybe not rooted or decipherable?

As far as historical context and Lilly giving Mars to signify cheating, even if we assume it is meant to signify a masculine person instead, if Mars is still another planet unrelated to the two parties, it is a malefic and potential separator in horary, and its nature in general is often associated with sexual desire for either sex. You could argue that Mars with a Man could signify homosexuality or something like that and that Venus would be more relevant for a straight male than Mars. In any case, the primary thing to look at is whether their planet is with the querent or with another planet in that chart type (from what I have gathered from book II of CA and from the article I read on the subject matter a few weeks back - I don't have the link to it but it was easy to find on the internet). Lilly mentions other things too though, such as what I said about the quesited being with the NN and that suggesting being faithful. In my experience in general on the error and trustworthiness of a person, them being with malefic influences in general is suspect. We see this in Lilly's section of rumors also. That is why Lilly says the NN is good, since it is often associated with a benefic influence.

Cheating is not really something that is different between a man and a woman. Yes, the article I read did emphasize Mars, but, again, any other planet coming between them is suspect, especially if other signification agrees (as I mentioned in your other thread of things to look at, which did not just mean Mars). However, in the one chart you posted, the quesited was conjunct Mars and even under its rulership and Mars was in no way related to the querent - this is suspect, yes, regardless of gender. The other chart had Mars angular in the 7th and the quesited applying to it out of sign. However, again, Mars can just show separation and disagreements, and not necessarily cheating. As with tarot, certain cards can mean certain things but it is up the reader to make sense of its signification for that spread. This is divination ultimately. For more information on cheating horaries, I would look at book II of Christian Astrology. It is free to download on the internet.
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EleanorLouise



Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Posts: 157

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Last edited by EleanorLouise on Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1014

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Eleanor - thanks for sharing the chart. The initial question was whether the querent would meet someone? Maybe you might want to post a new thread about your chart instead. While the subject matter of this thread is romance, it is a specific type of horary where someone asks if their partner is cheating on them. You don't really read them the same way as a typical romance chart if you follow Lilly's instructions in Christian Astrology. It is a different type of chart than a general "will I find romance" question because you are specifically asking about the behavior of someone you are in a relationship with.

I too have seen many questions where the quesited was combust and in a relationship unknown to the querent or that the querent knows about but does not realize how serious it is. I was talking about this in another thread that is actually more appropriate for your chart since it had quesited combust (cazimi). We don't know the meaning yet in that chart as far as outcome. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10644
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EleanorLouise



Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Posts: 157

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
Hi Eleanor - thanks for sharing the chart. The initial question was whether the querent would meet someone? Maybe you might want to post a new thread about your chart instead. While the subject matter of this thread is romance, it is a specific type of horary where someone asks if their partner is cheating on them. You don't really read them the same way as a typical romance chart if you follow Lilly's instructions in Christian Astrology. It is a different type of chart than a general "will I find romance" question because you are specifically asking about the behavior of someone you are in a relationship with.

I too have seen many questions where the quesited was combust and in a relationship unknown to the querent or that the querent knows about but does not realize how serious it is. I was talking about this in another thread that is actually more appropriate for your chart since it had quesited combust (cazimi). We don't know the meaning yet in that chart as far as outcome. http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10644

I'll move the chart.
I'll check out the link. I didn't know that about the sun conjunct quesited.
I'll remember that as I read on similar questions posed to me. A lot of questions (if I do decide to practice read someone) is usually romance oriented.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1014

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eleanor - it is just something I have noticed after giving many romance readings. It is not in any traditional texts that I know of. If a quesited is conjunct another planet then that planet can represent a third party in general but the Sun especially seems to emphasize "this person is taken and not interested in you." Sometimes it can be just that they are still in love with someone else too and not necessarily in a relationship with that person. I remember one chart like that. In the case of the chart I linked, the astrologer believes the Sun represents him but I am not convinced. We will see though. I don't remember any cazimi Suns in this scenario and the Sun does also disposit both of them, so it is possible it is different for that chart.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 218

Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know how I missed replying to this thread!! Very helpful points Tanit, thank you so very much. Greatly appreciate Thumbs up
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