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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Finding the Lord of Geniture, understanding dignity
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tsukii



Joined: 11 Mar 2019
Posts: 8
Location: The Moon

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:43 am    Post subject: Finding the Lord of Geniture, understanding dignity Reply with quote

First, please let me stress that this is not a request for a personal reading, as this is only focused on finding certain important planets within a natal chart.

Normally, I would use AstroFox for these calculations, but the website doesn't (or no longer) allows me to use the sidereal calculations I use instead of the tropical calculations.

Judging this chart, and if I'm understanding dignity and the rules for finding the Lord of Geniture, I would say that the LoG is Venus. This is due to Venus being in the house of rulership (own sign), being in the 5th house (which is typically considered to be one of the best of three houses for Venus to occupy), being retrograde (which is said to have 3x the power of a normal planet) as well as there being a large Libra stellium. I also see that Venus would be the Lord of Manners as well.

Please let me know if I am understanding these concepts and calculations correctly. Also, please let me know if any planet in the chart stands out or catches your eye.

Thank you very much.


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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 980

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello - I recently watched a very well researched talk on this subject by Christopher Brennan you can check out here. It is long but you can watch it at an increased speed.
http://theastrologypodcast.com/2019/05/17/the-master-of-the-nativity-finding-the-ruler-of-the-chart/

Unfortunately, there are many different methods so it depends on which one you use. I tend to keep it a little simple and primarily use William Lilly's tables of accidental/essential strength to determine the strongest planet in the chart, along with common sense.

https://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html

Lilly has a section of book 3 in Christian Astrology where he talks about how to analyze the natal chart for manners, etc.

Lilly says the following though:
Quote:
I am clearly of the opinion, viz. That planet who has most essential and accidental dignities in the Figure as is posited best and elevated most in the scheme, that he ought to be Lord of the Geniture.

CA, Book 3


I primarily look at what has the most essential dignity, its planetary speed/direction, free from combustion/beams, house placement, if it has planetary joy, sect, oriental/occidental, with nodes/fixed stars. Looking at the planet that is most elevated makes sense too though since in general in a traditional chart, planets below the earth may not exert as much influence. My own planet that is most essentially dignified is already most elevated so when I think of this on a personal level it is hard for me to decide if this matters a lot or not and I could be biased.

One thing I find a little bit bad about your Venus is that it is retro and it is also oriental, so it has some debilities. It being below the earth also would weigh lower for Lilly. Obviously your Saturn is close to the MC and essentially dignified, although out of sect and oriental. Time of birth being off could alter that and bring it within 5 degrees orb of the MC. I am voting for this being stronger than Venus primarily due to its elevation but also especially since the superiors often exert more influence than inferiors. That is just my opinion though and I don't know the speed of Saturn. Venus does have a lot of strengths, including being in sect and in Joy. Since your Lord of Geniture should play a large role in manners, one thing to ask yourself is which planet you might think describes you better. I haven't read that book in a while but I remember him saying something about it having a 2-fold impact on things like manners and appearance.

We don't know the planetary speeds but your Moon is luminary of sect, elevated, free of beams, increasing in light and trine Jupiter, its lord (I use max orb of 12.5 degrees for the Moon). It seems to me to at least be your hyleg and Jupiter your alcoccoden, so it is arguably very significant for things like health and vitality and something that would be sensitive in predictive methods. It doesn't have essential dignity but it is quite strong still and under the house, face and terms of Jupiter, a benefic. Moon does well in signs of Jupiter and in water signs. From Brennan's talk, you will find some (such as Firmicus, I believe) would give Jupiter as the planet that lords the luminary of sect (Moon) to be the ruler of your chart. In this method, it gives Venus as my lord and I give that a huge thumbs down.

Bear in mind I am not a sidereal person and didn't look at this in tropical, which probably paints a different picture. I am guessing your Venus is in fall in Virgo using tropical, so this is making me think Saturn is especially better.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3608
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tropically speaking - saturn would be in pisces, and venus would be in libra...

i am not sure what lord of the geniture is suppose to imply, but it seems to me a planet on an angle has a lot more strength then one in the 5th.... but from a sidereal perspective the 5th and the 9th - where saturn is - are considered the next best after being on an angle.. this differs from my understanding of tropical placements where planets in the 11th are given more cred...

saturn in this chart would have turned direct in the past couple of weeks on this chart and would also be considered strong by planetary phase..

tanit - thanks for the link to chris b's talk on all this... i saw that a week or so ago and have been meaning to watch it, but i wish chris could do some editing - 3 hour podcasts are a bit much...
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 980

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tropically, Mercury would have the most essential dignity but, again it is below the earth. Some might call that the Almuten, most likely, which can have different meaning.

During the talk, Brennan mentioned he meant to keep it much shorter but it ended up running longer than expected. If I were to recommend to him on how to alleviate that, I would get rid of the person asking questions. He could have stuck to major talking points and did a separate video with questions, for example. However, on his website he breaks down some of the major points brought up. I tend to prefer lecture format rather than reading bullet points.

If you are not a classical astrologer, then lord of geniture shouldn't mean much to you. It is potentially important in analyzing the person's chart for things like character, appearance and health. As with most topics in Skyscript, the general meaning can be found in the glossary search of terms for people who don't know what it is. The glossary also uses an example of Charles Manson's chart:
https://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/geniture.html. Also, as I said, CA book 3 uses it in the natal section for reading charts if you want specifics. I can post quotes later if I have time.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3608
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks tanit - i will take a look later... i have a couple of rehearsals today, so it is a busy day for me..
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 980

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James - you brought up a good point that in vedic astrology the strength of planets is different. We don't know which method is being used here and posting a sidereal chart in the regular nativity forum just adds another layer of confusion to the question.

Maybe this post belongs in the sidereal astrology forum?
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3608
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks tanit,

i am not sure! maybe! it is a challenge for newbies to navigate the various forums on skyscript... i know mark and i and probably a few others try to be conscientious about this, but it is tricky non the less...you could say it is a traditional forum topic too and that would be correct as well..
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 980

Posted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The OP stating that a retro planet has 3x the power in a chart is a red flag this is a vedic topic to me. I am going to move this to the sidereal section. I always find it interesting when in vedic a planet is strong but in tropical it is made weak (such as Venus here in tropical being pretty afflicted yet strong in vedic).

I also really like this website from an anonymous astrologer taught by Zoller. http://regulus-astrology.com/research.html

The article in Astrology and the Soul: History and Sources is of relevance. The astrologer says from their research about the lord of nativity here, which is a little confusing in context to other things explained but at least again highlights elevation being potentially significant in these types of methods.
Quote:
The lord of the nativity on the one hand and the Ruler of
the MC they define, particularly if it is angular [and]
effective, but if not, the one that is close to the MC, for
instance in the highest part of the nativity – which is the
one ruling actions – and if not that one, then the one that
is cadent to the MC.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
The OP stating that a retro planet has 3x the power in a chart is a red flag this is a vedic topic to me. I am going to move this to the sidereal section. I always find it interesting when in vedic a planet is strong but in tropical it is made weak (such as Venus here in tropical being pretty afflicted yet strong in vedic).

Retrograde planets in traditional Jyotish are indeed considered stronger but not 3x stronger. Retrograde by itself is more of an accidental dignity to put it into western terms and would not help much if let's say if the planet were deeply afflicted, neecha or fallen natally or in navamsa (D9) for instance.

Venus in this chart is indeed retrograde and by my calculation is moving at approximately 40% of his average speed. In a nutshell for natal work (note natal, not horary (prashna) which has a different symbolic meaning), the slower the planet the more influence, which leads to the point that change of station is the most relevant condition when talking about retrogradation. Otherwise, it is just a visionary phenomenon (optical illusion) due to different speeds of the planets in relation to our point of view from the earth (geocentric).

3x might be said of a perfectly stationary planet but even then would be an exaggeration. Planets within a couple of days of station are indeed very powerful. Stationary planets in Jyotish should never be ignored. All things being equal, a stationary planet can dominate a nativity. A great example of this is the sidereal chart of JFK where Mercury just turning direct is moving at 2% of average speed. His Mercury is badly placed and weak in late degrees but still powerfully dominated his life for both glory and tragedy as eighth lord Mars' close association/affliction to Mercury bore out.

OmSriGanesha'yeNamah.
edited for grammar and spelling.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3608
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't know that tsukii is even following this, but in absence of additional info, i thought i would share the chart is for approx nov 13 1994 - give or take, depending on birth location... i get saturn stationary direct - approx 4-5 day window...
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
i don't know that tsukii is even following this, but in absence of additional info, i thought i would share the chart is for approx nov 13 1994 - give or take, depending on birth location... i get saturn stationary direct - approx 4-5 day window...

KP ayanamsa, Mountain Time... time given may not be accurate to the minute.
1994 Oct. 29, 21:53 27°Vi08' ☿ goes Direct
1994 Nov. 9, 03:00 11°Aq59' ♄ goes Direct
1994 Nov. 23, 10:49 8°Li47' ♀ goes Direct

On Nov 14, 1994 Saturn is at 30% of his average speed. As mentioned before Venus is at about 40% of his average speed.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 980

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ - in Joytish do you use this system of lord of geniture at all?

I guess if we follow Joytish then that might favor Saturn since it is stationary direct? I find this quite odd because I have a stationary direct Saturn (moving at 26") and it is not what I would classify as strong. It moved direct 3 days before though. I consider my Saturn very afflictive but in sidereal it is in detriment (and also with the NN). It is also in the 3rd and I don't remember that being a good house for it in Joytish. I actually hate Saturn in my chart for the most part. I should order a reading sometime. If you guys have any recommendations, let me know.

In tropical, I would now lean more towards the Moon as capable of being lord of geniture here since Saturn is also stationary.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
AJ - in Joytish do you use this system of lord of geniture at all?

The short answer is no.
[Longer answer] I can't speak for all schools of Jyotish as there are many lakhs (hundreds of thousands) of methodologies as there are practitioners. I personally am not familiar with a formal system of determining the Lord of a Geniture or chart in Parashari. If there is one I suspect it is a modern contagion from Western astrological concepts that are slowly hybridizing modern Jyotish. Even within Parahari system of Jyotish there are a number of sub-systems or schools of thought. There have been numerous commentators, both classical and modern. Understanding of the system from the classical texts is difficult and much caution needs to be used when using contemporary authors.

Now, Tajika (read sidereal Arabic/Persian astrology) is another matter. There are methods to determine a Chart Lord and Lord of the year for solar returns. The one for solar returns is quite complicated if you follow all of the steps. Jaimini system I am not familiar with enough to comment if they use this concept.

In Jyotish great emphasis is placed upon the ascendant lord and its condition and any planets in the first house. All of the planets and houses are carefully analysed for strength/weakness/affliction. Of course, there are many other considerations that can't be put into a bulleted list. Often one planet will dominate a chart due to strength, even extreme weakness will do this too. As you say its really comes down to common sense for the astrologer to determine this.

Stefan: Can you give any insight into Tanit's question, 'in Joytish do you use this system of lord of geniture at all?'

Quote:
I guess if we follow Joytish then that might favor Saturn since it is stationary direct? I find this quite odd because I have a stationary direct Saturn (moving at 26") and it is not what I would classify as strong. It moved direct 3 days before though. I consider my Saturn very afflictive but in sidereal it is in detriment (and also with the NN). It is also in the 3rd and I don't remember that being a good house for it in Joytish. I actually hate Saturn in my chart for the most part. I should order a reading sometime. If you guys have any recommendations, let me know.

In tropical, I would now lean more towards the Moon as capable of being lord of geniture here since Saturn is also stationary

Personally I keep the stationing within 1-2 days and of course should never be taken in isolation. Without seeing your chart it does sound like it is weakened and possibly afflicted by NN (Rahu). Even a strong planet within 2 degrees of the Nodal axis becomes afflicted unless tightly aspected by a strong benefic.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Finding the Lord of Geniture, understanding dignity Reply with quote

tsukii wrote:
Also, please let me know if any planet in the chart stands out or catches your eye.

I thought since I commented on the Jyotish perspectives in this thread I might as well give my two cents towards what I consider the strongest sidereal planet.
There are several strong planets and nice features in this chart but tsukki's calculation of Venus is correct as the strongest planet in my opinion and beats out Saturn mostly due to the conjunction with ascendant lord Mercury.
Venus is well placed and strong in its Mulatrikona sign and ruler of a trinal house. Mercury is exactly conjunct Venus. Now Venus and Mercury are in planetary war or Graha Yuddha. Venus wins but in the sense that Venus envelopes Mercury's significations. Neither planet is harmed as both are benefic in this chart.
Saturn is a close second because it is extremely well placed and strong in its Mulatrikona sign in the auspicious ninth house. Saturn is also in its own sign in navamsa with Mercury and Venus. Saturn is in the midheaven.
Mention should be made of the Moon in the 10th house, an angular house. The Moon here is not bad, just okay as it is in an enemies sign natally and in D9 with Ketu. Its energies are mixed I would say.
There is a bit of a grey cloud with Venus/Mercury and Saturn as they are in the 8th and 12th house from the Moon respectively.
If Tsukii contributes I will share what I think are the weakest planets etc...
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3608
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi aj,

thanks for the additional commentary here.. it is interesting what you say here about graha yudda - venus-mercury conjunction and etc..

i notice you commenting on the placement of venus-mercury-saturn with regard to the moons houses... do you also consider placements with regard to sun houses, or is it really primarily about the ascendant and moon houses where the most weight is given?

also - how much of a factor is planetary phase? you say planets that are stationary are very powerful.. saturn is approx 5 days, venus 10 days and mercury 14 days from their change in direction... you use at 1-2 day window... my own experience leads me to believe a larger window is valid - 7 days anyway - especially for the outer planets.. but regardless of that, how much of a factor do you give this here?

regarding the orbs you use - i know, i know - orbs are a contentious issue - you are working with a 2 degree orb for any planet being handicapped with the nodes... i am guessing this is what you have arrived at by experience, but just checking!

thanks for your comments..
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