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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Will we be together
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really appreciate your analysis and input! I wonder if anyone else would like to try their hand at what made this union possible here in the chart.
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EleanorLouise



Joined: 16 Jun 2018
Posts: 157

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it could always be possible sun was another man.

She first complete aspect with Sun and then completes an aspect with you.

But moon will interfere with the aspect by aspecting mars. So that is another interference.

I wonder if the question was constructed well enough. What was your thought exactly when you meant "will we get together?" Have sex? Officially become BF/GF?
If it is the latter....have you made it official and told your friends you two are dating or are you still casual? This chart may still yet be completed
if it's a former...then the chart may have to be approached differently.
or were you only wondering if you two would have contact which is a 3rd house mercury matter?

I notice with horary you need to be painfully explicit with the yes/no to get an answer that makes sense....and then again at time we may never understand the chart until years later. The question is a bit on the grey area to me.

Moons next aspect was with mercury..showing communication probably.

Other thoughts the sun is keeping you from seeing one another (blinding you two) Venus is moving faster and moves past sun maybe allowing you two to be able to see each other (symbolic representation of planet moving.)

Just thoughts and theories.
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just think that using the sun as a significator for another man is nonsensical if not ludicrous. Moon, Sun, signficator (head,heart,sexuality) three elements that make up the whole person. Both Lilly and Frawley emphasize this in their books. These significatiors are taken.

If this was another man, why would I be receiving him in such a wonderful way (by rulership and triplicity.) Surely, me being in my own power would be the more logical reason for this, as I was indeed in my own power at the time and very much concerned with myself.

John Frawley reiterates time and time again in The Horary Textbook, not to over complicate the chart unless there is a significant reason for doing so. Co-significators are always to be assigned to both the querent and quested.
This is also true of Lilly, and who would I be to argue with the father of traditional astrology? The same could be said of their stance on Cazimi.

I must say, I err on the side of caution this particular analysis of the chart, and actually I think it is quite dangerous information to give out to new students of horary astrology, because it can disrupt the entire judgment of a chart.

I don't know, either way. I think, What I may do is have the chart analyzed by John to have a final opinion on it. When all's said and done, we are now together, so the chart was correct via my own analysis, delineated through Frawley and Lilly's text books.

Again, keeping the chart simple and not adding other planets of no real importance to the question complicates things and clearly impairs judgment.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1014

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If this was another man, why would I be receiving him in such a wonderful way (by rulership and triplicity.)


You are not receiving the Sun in traditional astrology. I am not putting down Frawley and many people find his techniques work for them. Frawley and Lilly do not agree on their use of reception. Frawley would say Mars loves Sun. Lilly would say Sun receives Mars and Mars does not receive Sun. Lilly never says reception means liking something anyway. Reception aids in perfection, leads to more positive outcomes or helps to mitigate bad influences (such as when a malefic receives a planet it afflicts), basically. According to Lilly, Mars is enemy to all planets except Venus. In any case, if Sun is you reception would not matter for Mars. In this case I can see assigning Sun as an important significator just because it disposits both significators not because it is the male in a romance chart that is a primary significator, which, again, Deb has specifically said is not in traditional usage (it is used to look only at its relationship to Venus) and that would include Lilly. I have read Christian Astrology and don't recall Lilly ever assigning Sun as a significator to use for perfection but maybe you can quote some text? When Deb talks about Sun being a good influence with Moon or Venus, that is because Moon-Sun in any chart is considered pretty favorable for growth (and I am sure I have read it in both Lilly and Bonatti as well as others and it is something I mention all of the time) and Venus tends to lord romance, and, again she has said before that Venus-Sun is important (although I know she told me before that combustion was not good and I don't know her specific thoughts on cazimi Venus). The luminaries in general are significant bodies.

You still have not addressed the placement of the Moon in your chart. I am curious what is your interpretation of its placement, as astrologer of this chart?

Quote:
I don't know, either way. I think, What I may do is have the chart analyzed by John to have a final opinion on it. When all's said and done, we are now together, so the chart was correct via my own analysis, delineated through Frawley and Lilly's text books.

And that is the whole point and all that matters. As I have said and say all of the time, a chart is meant for the astrologer to interpret and I do not follow Frawley. The chart was created for you to interpret. If I show someone a tarot spread I make, they might come to the same conclusion or not based on their knowledge and technique but does not make their own readings of spreads they make themselves bad. It makes it different from someone else.


Last edited by Tanit3333 on Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

“If it be a man that asketh the question, join the sun and moon with his significators...”

I don’t see anywhere where he says you can’t use the sun for perfection either.
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole differing interpretation of the chart seems illogical to me too. If there is a method ie, do XYZ equation and this is the result , how can it be interpreted any other way? Either the method works or it doesn’t, no?
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen Horary astrology work with astounding accuracy when delineated by experienced and knowledgeable astrologers. This is an amazing tool we have been given, and it would be no good if it worked sometimes, it works all the time. The chart is never wrong, but I think comparing horary with tarot is absurd to say the least, because there are a strict set of rules to be followed . The times when I have seen it fail the most is when astrologers mix techniques , traditional and modern for example. Two entirely different schools which destroy good judgment.

I have found Frawley to be arrogant about his work and what he does. This I believe, is because he is excellent and knows what he is doing. If one follows his methods to the letter, the judgment is sure to be sound, as I have almost always found.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1014

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In that text, Lilly sites the Sun as a 4th thing to consider. It is not a primary significator. Again, Deb is the authority on Lilly (and horary in general) and she says she does not give Sun and Venus as significators that can lead to perfection with primary sigs. She has said many times to look primarily at the primary sigs, which would be Mars, Venus and Moon here. However, since Venus is a primary sig here and Sun is a lesser body to consider and is favorable when in aspect with Venus it can be good. It is a dispositor, again, and I think that is the bigger issue. If you look at the other chart posted that I linked in my initial response, Venus is not yet in Leo and not under its influence. The 7th house has Algol on it like yours though but with the Moon.

Again, I already explained that you could argue Venus translates light of Jupiter in the 1st to Sun and that is the primary positive bringing together. There are positives in the chart.

You seem to think everything I say is absurd so I will stop commenting.


Last edited by Tanit3333 on Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and she says she does not give Sun and Venus as significators that can lead to perfection with primary sigs.

From what I understand, Frawley disagrees with this as the three bodies make a whole. If a co significator is aspecting another’s co significator how can it not lead to perfection? The three bodies make up a whole person. So according to John, what difference does it make.[/quote]
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

“You seem to think everything I say is absurd so I will stop commenting.“

No. I am disagreeing with you because I think you’re methodology is ridiculous and impairs correct judgement.
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

“Again, Deb is the authority on Lilly (and horary in general)”

Another deeply absurd thing to say. Deb is an amazing and talented astrologer but to say she is the authority on lilly and horary in general is outrageous, and remarkably misinformed,considering the generation of astrologers of which she is from, which includes Frawley. You are simply dismissing them!
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

“I actually more commonly see the Sun representing a third party than Saturn. In questions where someone asks if someone is dating someone else, I most commonly see the quesited with the Sun, with it representing a person that they hold in high regard, and typically the outcome is that they are seeing someone”

To demonstrate, this is WILDY speculative and should not be dished out to novices as a method of delineation that works - because it doesn’t!
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1014

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not dismiss Frawley - it is a matter of traditional versus modern technique. Frawley uses a modern technique that he created. We can certainly agree to disagree since most modern and traditional astrologers do disagree. There are many threads on a combust querent (and quesited) and other astrologers basically saying the same "absurd" and "ludicrous" things I brought up. I am glad the matter worked out for you and that you feel like this chart explains things well but you yourself admitted it having contradictions and then turn around and say how perfectly it shows the outcome via Frawley.

I admitted that my interpretation of the Sun was speculative from the beginning and my own assumption from charts shared and read, such as the one similar to yours I posted from someone breaking up with their husband who then started dating someone else. One of the reasons I threw it out there was because her chart reminded me of seeing this and your chart was around the same time and very, very similar to hers (same rulers and house placements). I never would have even mentioned it had it not been for her thread and I thought it might be of significance so threw it out there and it was not meant to be life or death or "dangerous" information. I thought I gave a pretty good caveat of it being my own interpretation and this is a place to discuss ideas.


Last edited by Tanit3333 on Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think our debate on this topic has been valuable, and precisely the purpose of these forums. I of course respect your opinion, but do not agree with it as you disagree with me.

It’s a shame, others have not attempted to delineate this chart as it is quite an interesting one! So of course thank you for your time and consideration, Tanit. No hard feelings meant.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1014

Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For reference of a completely opposing result, a cazimi 7th lord where Sun is in detriment in the 12th:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9999&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

The poster sent me an email recently that she was still amazed how accurate the chart was. Again, in this case the quesited was with someone else, which they mentioned after I said the same thing i said to you. Maybe this is because the quesited is usually male?

I do think the condition of the Sun is really key in cazimi situations- Oprah has a cazimi Venus in Aquarius in the 2nd trine Jupiter in natal and her bank account is doing very well though.
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