skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Solar Returns and Profections
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Sidereal Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1492
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Quote:
To wrap up the blind analysis... Komilla was married.

This is a great relief to me because I was testing the western sidereal way of interpreting return charts (using solar return cusps and houses) as well as the placement of star lords of planets, and these pointed to marriage.

There were multiple ways that 7th lord Mercury was highlighted, the most interesting being natal D9 Mercury on the SR 7th cusp. (This was a new discovery, and natal D9 Venus and Rahu were also on the SR ascendant. So the D9 Mercury/Ketu opposite Venus/Rahu was highlighted by this return chart and repeated by SR transits.)

Do you have the date of marriage? Both June ennead charts looked interesting, so I decided not to use the ennead to judge the SR. Of course there is always a lot of fuss around the time of a marriage, and this would be reflected in transits.

Quote:
I am considering leaving also. Partly due to my firewall having incompatibilities with older sites like this one. My last post took 3 tries.

I would often get notices of a post, but then there would be a message that the post didn't exist. These notices no doubt happened after one of your failed posts. It looks like Skyscript itself may be in jeopardy, so I guess we wait to see what happens.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm


Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:12 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1492
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Quote:
To wrap up the blind analysis... Komilla was married.
The event happened during the main period of Saturn and in the sub-period of Mercury.
Saturn in the 11th house in its own sign and is also lord of the 12th house. Saturn rules the D9 ascendant.

It's interesting here that the 11th house profected position of Saturn (with Ketu) overshadowed the fact that both Saturn and Ketu are generally malefics, and that they are both in the Moon's star in Komilla's 8th house. However, the Moon is lord of the benefic 5th house, and 18 degrees of Libra is a degree I've seen to be highly beneficial. Several fixed stars are in that degree. (I had overlooked the fact that Saturn rules the D9 ascendant.)

Quote:
Mercury is placed in its own sign in the seventh house. Mercury is exactly aspected by Mars from the fourth house and by Ketu from the 11th. Mars rules the 2nd house of family, spouse and is in the 4th house of family.

Mars is also the antara lord, so it's significant that it gives a full aspect to the 7th lord. So we have all three lords in the natal chart operating together: Saturn (dasa lord) with Ketu in the 11th (a support marriage house) both in trine to 7th lord Mercury (bhukti lord) in the 7th, and Mars (antara lord) also aspecting Mercury. It seems so clear in retrospect using only the natal chart and the dasa/bhukti/antara lords!!

Then if we add the solar return chart: Mercury is the strongest (most angular) natal planet in the SR chart in the degree of the nodes which cross the asc/desc cusps.

Jupiter conjoins the Moon in Ketu's star and using Krishnamurti's techniques, transits in Ketu's star bring the results of natal Ketu which is in the 11th natal house with dasa lord Saturn and D9 Ascendant lord, both trine to 7th lord Mercury in the 7th.

So aside from the 11th house Saturn Profection, there are several parts of the solar return chart that indicate this would be a good year, very possibly pointing to marriage:

(1) Moon conjunct Jupiter in its own sign of Sagittarius (in SR 2nd house of family.)

(2) Natal Jupiter angular in the 4th SR house (in Rahu's star, Rahu being in the SR 7th.

(3) The crown of the SR chart, however, is natal 7th lord Mercury at the top of the chart in partile formation with the nodes on the Asc/Desc axis.

(4) Angular Rahu's sign dispositor and sub lord is Venus which conjoins natal Mercury in the SR 11th/natal 7th. (Rahu is said to bring both its sign and star lords into manifestation.)

For Komilla's chart, we didn't need to go beyond the simple advanced Profection by natal house, solar return and natal charts.

Quote:
There are other very interesting features in her chart and life I wanted to present, but thanks to everyone for the discussions.

Sometimes, AJ, I feel you've been "on my case." But if Skyscript continues, perhaps you'll change your mind about leaving. I would like to know about Komilla's life, and even timed events to check additional SR charts. But it does seem that your firewall problems will have to be fixed somehow.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3601
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

first off - thanks aj for running this exercise.... it is indeed challenging to come up with the answer! i believe one of the many reasons for this is the number of techniques available to choose from, some of which may work some of the time, but not all the time... with this in mind, let me comment on my own conclusion here..

the profection data seemed essentially useless...and the importance of the moving profection data to highlight jupiter in aquarius - seems to have just thrown me off into 12th house matters, more then anything else.. however, in fairness to profection data - capricorn as the ascendant lord for the year would put the libra planets on the 10th house cusp.. there is some mutual reception between both saturn and venus both placed in dignity- saturn in cap and venus in libra.. but overall, saturn in komillas chart is in the 11th and i don't generally associate the 11th with marriage...

the close conjunction of saturn in the solar return to moon in the natal chart would ordinarily imply a issue of concern that i wouldn't associate with marriage, but more like death of the mom as stefan mostly highlighted...however maybe this is altered significantly due the dignity of saturn and that the moon rules the 5th... just speculating..

the primary direction of jupiter to mercury would imply this given jupiter and mercury rule the ascendant axis, but for some reason i got caught up in the sign positions, as opposed to the house position of mercury and thought it was work related... jupiter in aquarius is a 12th house planet and ruler of the ascendant.. that doesn't seem to fit..

perhaps the best read on this is exactly as therese highlighted in the post below using the solar return as the primary chart and reading off of it as she learned and highlights from the fagen school below... thank you therese!!

i have more to say, but will leave it at this for now... thanks everyone!


Therese Hamilton wrote:
James wrote:
Quote:
Therese, the problem with the older solar fire version you are using is although it puts the birth chart in the inner wheel with solar return on the outer wheel, it puts all of the planets in the solar return houses, not the birth chart houses.

This is correct, and the way western sidereal astrologers of the Fagan school have decided is the valid way to read solar return charts. The chart style I use was designed by sidereal astrologer Matthew Quellas (now deceased). Sidereal astrologers of the Fagan school believe that the solar return to natal chart has to be viewed this way. There are books devoted to reading return charts using this method, both solar and lunar returns. I believe this was an innovation of the Fagan school. At any rate it can be tested. The most popular book using this system is James Eshelman's Interpreting Solar Returns (Astro Analytics Publications, 1979).

I will have to find time to spend with Ben Dykes' book [Persian Nativities IV: Abu Ma'shar On the Revolutions of the Year, Cazimi Press 2019] before any further discussion on points you have mentioned. But also I've been considering leaving Skyscript for a number of reasons, so may let this book go into the background for awhile.

Abu Ma'shar lived at an interesting time when Persian astrology was transitioning from the sidereal to a fully tropical zodiac. I think I remember Ben Dykes mentioning in his introduction that Abu Ma'shar was experimenting in different ways, and seemed not to be sure about how to use some of his techniques. So, yes, he was an innovator at a time of astrological change among Persian astrologers.

Edit:
I should add that the reason sidereal astrologers draw the chart with the solar return angles is that the four angles of the SR chart are of supreme importance. Whatever natal planets all near the angles or aspect them closely will materialize during the year.

So if quadrant cusps are used in the solar return chart, these will be difficult to see in the natal chart. In general today's sidereal astrologers (of the Fagan school) don't use houses or minimize their importance. They pay attention to planets on the SR angles and (some astrologers) also note planets that make close aspects to the SR angles and very close SR transits to natal planets.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1492
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, James, for summarizing your thoughts on Komilla’s chart.

James wrote:
Quote:
...it is indeed challenging to come up with the answer! i believe one of the many reasons for this is the number of techniques available to choose from,

This is the problem with astrology in general, and why research should be a primary focus of astrologers. This is why working with Komilla’s chart has been a good research project.

Quote:
The profection data seemed essentially useless...and the importance of the moving profection data to highlight jupiter in aquarius - seems to have just thrown me off into 12th house matters...

This is a very important statement. You have said here that the moving profection data threw you off into 12th house matters. The key word here is moving. The original Hellenistic profection was fixed, keeping the natal signs and degrees intact and simply advancing the ascendant through the houses. I don’t know the origin of moving (re-computing natal planetary signs and degrees) profections as I haven’t had time to further study Abu Ma’shar. (So this is on my study list.)

Quote:
however, in fairness to profection data - capricorn as the ascendant lord for the year [in 11th natal house] would put the libra planets on the 10th house cusp..

Here you have returned to the original Hellenistic fixed profection method, which in this case was helpful in choosing the correct option for Komilla.

Quote:
...there is some mutual reception between both saturn and venus both placed in dignity- saturn in cap and venus in libra..

This mutual reception is very important and something I failed to notice myself!

Quote:
...but overall, saturn in Komillas chart is in the 11th and i don't generally associate the 11th with marriage...

This is something I learned from studying K.S. Krishnamurti and S.P. Khullar. A principle of these systems is that events don’t belong only to one house. Each event has supporting houses. So for marriage the 7th is the primary house and the 2nd (increase in family) and 11th (fulfillment of desires?) are support houses. (I was married in the sub period of the Sun in my 11th house in Libra, Sun being lord of 9th.)

Quote:
the close conjunction of saturn in the solar return to moon in the natal chart would ordinarily imply a issue of concern that i wouldn't associate with marriage, but more like death of the mom as stefan mostly highlighted...however maybe this is altered significantly due the dignity of saturn and that the moon rules the 5th... just speculating..

It does seem that the dignity of Saturn and Moon as lord of 5th overshadowed natal Moon in 8th. But also, there is another possibility: As an Indian girl in an earlier age (1985), Komilla most likely didn’t have any sexual relationship with her husband prior to marriage. If the 8th rules the genital area of the body, then Komilla's first sexual experience after marriage would indeed point to the 8th house, and would be very significant for Komilla. (This 8th house does show up strongly in what is probably the relevant ennead chart. Not knowing what to do with this emphasis, I didn’t use the ennead for my prediction. I may post this chart under the ennead topic.)

Quote:
perhaps the best read on this is exactly as therese highlighted in the post below using the solar return as the primary chart and reading off of it as she learned and highlights from the fagen school below... thank you therese!!

I see this as a victory for all of us because we learned something important about interpreting the solar return chart. Now to further test the chart using Fagan school principles. This is why I was hoping that AJ would post other events in Komilla’s life...not necessarily as a challenge, but just telling us the events themselves and their timing so we could study the relevant charts.

Since software programs don’t include this printing option (SR ascendant and planets on the outer wheel, natal chart on the inner wheel), the best way to view the chart is to print a large solar return chart and manually enter the natal ascendant and planets toward the center of the wheel...the OLD way we used to hand draw charts, which actually can be very helpful in tuning into a chart. We lose this intuitive connection with software generated charts.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1492
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just now checking Ben Dykes' Introduction to Abu Ma'shar's On the Revolutions of the Years of Nativities (The Cazimi Press, 1919) there is no mention of the "moving" method of profections, only the "fixed" rotation of the ascendant (or other bodies) through natal houses. I haven't yet had time to read through the main text of the book on Profections (Book II). The use of Time Lords through the bounds uses another progressed method, but I haven't had time to read that part of the text. Time Lords is another topic entirely.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm


Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3601
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,

are monthy profections a moving method of profections to you? i am very curious.. thanks.. surely you can see how moving the annual profection to include monthly profections is indeed a moving system... but, i would prefer to talk about something else that we can agree upon, since you are not willing to concede what is both in the book and what i am extrapolating in the idea of this data moving forward not only an an annual, or monthly basis - as outlined in the book, but also on a daily basis.. lets just agree to disagree here.. thanks..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1492
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
Are monthly profections a moving method of profections to you?

A "moving" profection means that there is computation involved, so that the degrees and/or signs of natal planets are changed. By "moving" I'm just trying to distinguish between the Hellenistic method of advancing through natal houses every 12 years and a later method where computation is used to change the degrees and signs of planets.

For example in the "directed profection" you used for Komilla's marriage year, the ascendant is in Aquarius. But the fixed natal profected ascendant for that year is Capricorn with Saturn in the 11th house. (No sign changes from the natal chart.)

You have directed profected Saturn in Sagittarius. (But its fixed natal position is Capricorn.)

You have directed profected Jupiter in Capricorn. (But its fixed natal sign is Aquarius.) And so on....By computation planets have been moved from their natal sign and degree.

I have yet to understand what Abu Ma'shar means by "monthly profections" as he uses monthly increments for the solar return. It might be a semantic problem. Ben Dykes mentions how combining many factors as Abu Ma'shar does is very confusing even to Abu Ma'shar himself. Anyhow I haven't studied this part of the book yet. I only mentioned that specifically in the Profections section of the Introduction, Dykes doesn't mention "moving" profections.

In "fixed" Hellenistic profections, we count through the houses, but make no changes at all in natal degrees and signs of planets. (Fixed isn't a good term for these profections. Counting or advancing are better terms.)

Quote:
what i am extrapolating in the idea of this data moving forward not only an an annual, or monthly basis - as outlined in the book, but also on a daily basis..

I have no problem at all with that. It's just that this is a departure from the original Hellenistic profection method which didn't use monthly or daily increments.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 222
Location: Stockholm

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks AJ for interesting exercise.

Marriage is perfectly logical by many means, but I got distracted by all moon stuff there.

As Therese says saturn as major dasha is 11th lord. This house is one of the possible marriage houses as fulfiller of desires. Then mercury as 7th lord running the subperiod.

When it comes to varshaphala chart, I told in my post that there was an ithasala yoga (applying aspect, taijika arabian technique)between 1st lord and 7th lord. This is true from the muntha and the yearlord as well, if using their vantage point as lagna, which Charac in his books about Varshaphala is doing as a technique for corrobation.
This is also an applying aspect between venus and Mars adding to that. This is also mentioned in Charac's books is good for marriage years.
So it's quite clear cut in that chart.
I should have trusted that chart more. Valuable lesson....

But then the subperiod planet transiting the 4th house of mother and location seems to me to be pointing directly to these issues. It is quite usual otherwise that the subplanet transit is quite spot on many times....

Thanks...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1492
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stefan wrote:
Quote:
When it comes to varshaphala chart, I told in my post that there was an ithasala yoga (applying aspect, taijika arabian technique)between 1st lord and 7th lord.

Thank you, Stefan. It’s good to have the Varshaphala techniques to help with interpretation. Since astrologers who read these posts sometimes are not familiar with Varshaphal terms, I would like to ask some questions. But I will also note that although the astrology that made its way to India as the Varshapala, although this was Arabic era astrology, the Tajika techniques belonged to Persian astrologers. This distinction is important because even today there is bad feeling between people of Arab and Persian ancestry.

Quote:
This is true [Ithasala yoga: applying aspect between 1st and 7th lords] from the muntha and the yearlord as well, if using their vantage point as lagna, which Charac [Charak] in his books about Varshaphala is doing as a technique for corrobation.

So the Varshaphal uses the western aspect of sextile, 60 degrees between planets, even though this aspect belongs only to Saturn in Parashara astrology? (SR Venus, 7th lord is sextile Mars, 1st lord)

The Muntha is the same as the profected western ascendant, Capricorn for Komilla’s marriage year, correct?

Applying aspect from Muntha: What are these two planets in applying aspect?

Year Lord: Are you using Saturn (Muntha lord) for year lord? Or another planet? From this vantage point, what are the 1st and 7th lords?

Thank you, Stefan. So many details to remember in astrology!
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 222
Location: Stockholm

Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So the Varshaphal uses the western aspect of sextile, 60 degrees between planets, even though this aspect belongs only to Saturn in Parashara astrology? (SR Venus, 7th lord is sextile Mars, 1st lord)


Yes Varshaphala uses the Taijika aspects. The sextile is called seen or called planets in 3/11th relationships to each other. This is seen as "Secretly friendly"These aspects are also often used in prashna (horary astrology).

Quote:
The Muntha is the same as the profected western ascendant, Capricorn for Komilla’s marriage year, correct?


Yep

Quote:
Applying aspect from Muntha: What are these two planets in applying aspect?


Muntha is capricorn. seeing muntha as an ascendant we get saturn as 1st lord and Moon as 7th lord.
Moon is 8 degrees sagittrius. Saturn is 18 degree Libra. So moon (7th L) is applying to saturn (1st L) by 3/11th aspect (sextile).

Quote:
Year Lord: Are you using Saturn (Muntha lord) for year lord? Or another planet? From this vantage point, what are the 1st and 7th lords?


The assigned Yearlord for this year in the Varshaphala is Mars due to being the planet a high Bala (strength) Being ascendant lord.
In this particular chart this is a nobrainer.

So if seeing the Yearlord as an ascendant; Mars becomes 1L and venus 7L. Applying to each other, again.....

So this is true from all vantagepoints.

Quote:
Thank you, Stefan. So many details to remember in astrology!


Indeed ! Very Happy

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3601
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stefan,

i sent you a private message... check your pms and get back to me.. see over on the left hand side of this page where it says ''check pms''.. thanks - james
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Sidereal Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Page 7 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated