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Sidereal tradition in the West

 
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Astrovedas



Joined: 18 Nov 2015
Posts: 5
Location: London, England

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:39 pm    Post subject: Sidereal tradition in the West Reply with quote

Does anybody know how much of a sidereal zodiac tradition existed in the West before the 20th century? I notice Dr Gansten's website refers to Junctinus's SZ advocacy in the 16th C., but guessing he was an outlier.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In his Introduction to Persian Nativities IV: Abu Ma'shar, On the Revolutions of the Years of Nativities (The Cazimi Press, 2019) Benjamin N. Dykes writes:

Quote:
In Ch. 1.4, 29 [Abu Ma'shar] shows familiarity with three famous zijes: The Sindhind, Ptolemy's Almagest, and the Sasanian Persian Shahriydr (also known as the Zij al-Shah), suggesting that even in the mid to late 800s there were still astrologers using sidereal zodiacs on a regular basis.

Chapter 1.4, 23-31 offers other insights into astrological practices of his day, and the fact that even Abu Ma'shar mixed and matched sidereal and tropical values for different purposes. (p. 5)

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Astrovedas



Joined: 18 Nov 2015
Posts: 5
Location: London, England

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much, I understood use of sidereal continued until the Arabic period, though I hadn't read Ben Dykes' work. I'm more curious about the Renaissance and later - the example of Junctinus proves the SZ didn't disappear altogether. And what about British astrologers in the Raj/East India Company days? BV Raman said in his autobiography that Alan Leo paid only lip service to Indian astrology, but Leo's generation would presumably have absorbed the SZ along with their Theosophy?
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't studied Renaissance astrology and later in any depth, but it seems that after Abu Ma'shar's time the sidereal zodiac disappeared in the west. Al Biruni (973-1049 CE) seems to have no knowledge of a fixed zodiac because in Al Beruni's India he criticizes the Indians for their lack of knowledge of the moving fixed stars:
Quote:
This passage shows that Varahamihira had no knowledge of the motion of the fixed stars toward the east. He considers them, in agreement with the name, as fixed, immovable stars, and represents the solstices moving toward the west. In consequence of this fancy, he has, in the matter of the lunar stations, confounded two things... (p. 493)

The solstice has kept its place, but the constellations have migrated, just the very opposite of what Varahamihira has said. (p. 494)

Dr. Edward C. Sachau trans., Al Biruni's India, New Delhi: Rupa Publications Pvt. Ltd., 2002-2016.

From what I've read over the years, there was a complete zodiac divide between east and west after the Arabic period in the 800s until Cyril Fagan rediscovered the early sidereal zodiac in his research.

Even Rudolf Steiner (at one time a Theosophist) didn't understand the measurement of sidereal signs, but had to approximate the position of the constellations in his work.

Perhaps someone else reading this thread can offer more information on the zodiac in the west from the Renaissance on.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:53 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Astrovedas



Joined: 18 Nov 2015
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Location: London, England

Posted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks very much Therese, that passage doesn't appear in my abridged edition of Alberuni's India! Some irony that he's lecturing Varahamihira for treating the stars as fixed and the solstices as moving...

It appears Cyril Fagan's 20th C. sidereal movement was a genuine revival without any immediate Western precedent.
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astroart



Joined: 08 Mar 2009
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Location: Varna, Bulgaria

Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roger of Hereford (XII Cent.) was one of the first astrologers in the West who describes and promotes the sidereal zodiac in his book Liber de arte astronomice iudicandi. See Nicholas Whyte's dissertation in History and Philosophy of Science on this topic (Cambridge, 1991).
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Astrovedas



Joined: 18 Nov 2015
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Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for this, very interesting. Makes you wonder over again why sidereal ever disappeared.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astroart wrote:
Quote:
Roger of Hereford (XII Cent.) was one of the first astrologers in the West who describes and promotes the sidereal zodiac in his book Liber de arte astronomice iudicandi. See Nicholas Whyte's dissertation in History and Philosophy of Science on this topic (Cambridge, 1991).

Yes, thank you! Here is the link to Roger's dissertation:
http://nicholaswhyte.info/roger.htm

It can be read by clicking on Rich Text format.
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carriere.francois



Joined: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 115

Posted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it is worth: I use the system of Abu Mashar in tropical (what about in sidereal?): The distribution with lords of the terms, ninths and their decanates are a blessing for the astrologer … Sorry it's automatic translations from French, I didn't care much…
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