Tanit, may I ask a question?

I'm often confused about this 5th house placement. Is there any difference between Querent being placed in 5th and Quesited being placed in 5th? Do these placements both signify the significator's interest in sex & passion? How about Quesited being placed in 11th (radical 5th)?

I asked because, for example (not related to this chart), 12th is supposed to be the Quesited's servants and not the Querent's, in a question where servants are relevant, of course.

Thank you.

Amelia.

I'm often confused about this 5th house placement. Is there any difference between Querent being placed in 5th and Quesited being placed in 5th? Do these placements both signify the significator's interest in sex & passion? How about Quesited being placed in 11th (radical 5th)?

The 5th is of course the house of Venus, a planet that tends to lord romance and sex. I do think this house can describe feelings of love, passion or affection, and can describe things such as dating or spending time with someone on a romantic level. House placement is the status of the person around the matter, based also on how a planet expresses their essential dignity and planetary nature, so it depends on the planet and its nature too. Saturn in the 5th is different than Jupiter in the 5th, for example. Were it Saturn in the 5th I would think of someone who has trouble expressing romance or sexual interest or is maybe even rejecting love (whether the querent or quesited), or is shy and inhibited or stunted in romance. Jupiter is a more natural planet in the 5th since it is a benefic like Venus and enjoys the good things in life. The problem though is that it is debilitated in a sign of Saturn.

I normally think of both Venus and Jupiter ill dignified in the 5th in particular as someone more likely to have some sort of focus on the romantic side of that house in a more dysfunctional way because both are loveable planets and are in a loving house but the essential nature is tainted. As in natal, dysfunctional can be either too much or too little of something, or just somehow deviant or wrong or outside of the norm. I think it suggests interest on his part for a sexual or romantic relationship but there are no strong indicators of conventional love and devotion. As has been mentioned, there is lack of aspect especially with the querent. I am more inclined to think this shows he is someone who is loose about love, which is why I mentioned he could even be a philanderer. Jupiter tends to promise a lot but might let someone down when essentially bad. I could be wrong and the symbolism might be suggesting something else, such as being unable to express the energies of that house due to other responsibilities, which are tied to Saturn. He could even have responsibilities to his offspring that are influencing his behavior towards the querent, for example. In some charts involving romantic situations a planet in the 5th has shown a focus on children involved in a situation (such as querent in the 5th when she was worried about her children in a possible divorce). It just depends. As you said though, you normally turn a chart to analyze from the other's life and so his 5th is the 11th. I more so turn charts when I specifically ask questions that need me to turn them though. If I asked about a quesited's 5th house specifically then I might turn it. Here there isn't a reason to do that.

I do think the radical placement of the 5th still sticks for quesited regarding it being the house of Venus, at least from my experience. I once asked about a guy I thought was attractive and he was aspecting the 11th lord while in the 11th and he turned out to be in love with a friend and later married her. I normally associate the 11th as the house of friendship and the 7th lord there might suggest he is more interested in friendship (or sometimes a friend!).

The fog is finally lifting for me. Thank you, Tanit.

What a bad shape Jupiter was in, in this chart, was the first thing that caught my attention. I agree with your analysis that this could be a philanderer and in the very least, not worthy of trust. (Remember that Jupiter in Rookie's job chart. The employer did lie - in a way.)

I'm worried about the querent cause as you said, he isn't seeing anything clearly. I would really warn, warn, warn him off pursuing any relationship with John Doe.

I do think the radical placement of the 5th still sticks for quesited regarding it being the house of Venus, at least from my experience. I once asked about a guy I thought was attractive and he was aspecting the 11th lord while in the 11th and he turned out to be in love with a friend and later married her. I normally associate the 11th as the house of friendship and the 7th lord there might suggest he is more interested in friendship (or sometimes a friend!).

Thank you for sharing this in particular. In love with a friend, that makes so much sense, especially aspecting the 11th Lord too.

If I may add
Mercury rules the AS -querent but Venus is the Almuten of the 7th and Angular and in Mutual Reception with Mercury.
Moon separating from Mercury, square Sun, sextile Venus and last opposing Mars, where everything can be damaged and not result in perfection.

I just realized I got the genders wrong and it is a same sex couple. Sorry for the mistake in my word choices. I wrote this late before bed last night.

I normally only look at an Almuten in a birth chart and the Almuten of the chart is generally significant. I don't see it used in horary much. The fact that Venus squares Neptune in the 7th is already combining energy of the 7th though. I also do not look at reception without an aspect since without an aspect reception doesn't mean much (the planets do not "see" each other here). Mercury sextiles the descendant but that again isn't an indication of perfection with the 7th lord. Ultimately, I still think the 12th house influences are most key. They probably are pointing to an affair with this man but that isn't a positive here and there is no indication of the quesited making the proper gestures towards the querent since they are essentially poor and not aspecting. They are also the more ponderous planet, which means less likely to cause change in the matter.

But, again, the ascendant is early so any reading should be done with caution if at all. If there is lack of hour agreement, even more so.

Thank you Tanit!
I agree with you that the 12th House is Key here. Meaning fear of engagement.

I also do not look at reception without an aspect since without an aspect reception doesn't mean much (the planets do not "see" each other here).
Mercury sextiles the descendant but that again isn't an indication of perfection with the 7th lord.

I still think the Mercury-Venus reception is important here because Venus is in the Triplicity, Rulership and Bound of Venus. And Venus in the sign of Mercury.

Also on the excellent website of Paulo Alexandre Silva - astrologiamedieval.com in the Studies section, he shares one on his study on Classical Astrology and Sexual Orientation, where he quotes
Dorotheus de Sidon in Carmen Astrologicum (p. 64) saying,

"If Venus is in a house of Mercury and Mercury is poorly located(combust here), then the native will not love women, but his pleasure will be in boys .."

Which I feel is being reflected here.


Thank you again for your engagement and support to grow together!
Kind regards,

Hi Ouranos

It's interesting indeed, this mercury/venus interplay you quoted. I will look for it in the future. I wonder however if it's referring to natal charts instead of horary?

I also tend to believe that reception does not mean much on its own. Two people have to catch each other's eyes to exchange a look. That look could well be oh-my-goodness fireworks, but if A doesn't catch B's eyes, no fireworks can happen.

Ms Deb Houlding says that aspects show motivation (i.e. feelings).

Motivation is shown by movement, not position, and all sources are agreed upon the principle that the planet which moves most swiftly to create the application indicates the party who is most keen. What we need to see is the party being applied to receiving the one which applies towards it.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic ... c&start=15

Also, it's apt to recall, "no aspect, no relationship": Skyscript's love chart rules.

Amelia

Thank you Amelia,
Motivation is shown by movement not position. I keep repeating this to myself like a mantra.
In my analysis, I take querent Mercury L1 and Moon (co-ruler) and quesited Venus L7 (Almuten)
Now, maybe I am wrong altogether here, but I see the Moon last square Mercury applying to a sextile to Venus.
So if there is an aspect, there is a relationship right? Will Venus receive the Moon?
The mutual reception here would qualify the movement.

Always happy to share with you!
Ouranos

Moon's applying to the Sun next, so she isn't bringing the light from Mercury to Venus. She is bringing Mercury's light to the Sun in this case. I missed this too, but Tanit corrected us. There remains no aspect between Mercury and Venus.

Amelia

I see. Good point.
In which case, money might be an important obstacle here. (Sun in 8th)

Can't wait to see the outcome.

Cheers!
Ouranos