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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Classical Use of Triplicities
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Klori



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 6

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 3:34 am    Post subject: Classical Use of Triplicities Reply with quote

Hello...I was reading on this site "The Classical Use of Triplicities" and would be appreciative of recommendations on books on how to understand it and also apply such to charts more indepth..any books that also includes Neptune, Pluto, Uranus...would be great...but I guess those would be contemporary/modern. In any case basic direction would be welcomed.

Thanks
Klori
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try to find Lee Lehman's book Essential Dignties.

I don't think you'll find anything that assigns triplicity rulers to the three outer planets. Some authors have assigned domicile rulerships and exaltation rulers to them. While the vast majority if not all moderns would give Uranus to Aquarius, Neptune to Pisces, and Pluto to Scorpio, there are some differences in exaltation assignations. I've seen Neptune and Uranus exalted in Leo for example. I've also seen Uranus exalted in Gemini .Traditional astrologers tend to avoid using the three outers with the dignities.

Tom
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1393

Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I recall properly, Sepharial didnīt agree with uranus put as the ruler of aquarius... he thought that Uranus should be attributed to the triplicity of the air, and Neptune to the triplicity of water.
Pluto wasnīt discovered yet, so obviously he doesnīt talk about it.

Yuzuru
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If I recall properly, Sepharial didnīt agree with uranus put as the ruler of aquarius... he thought that Uranus should be attributed to the triplicity of the air, and Neptune to the triplicity of water.
Pluto wasnīt discovered yet, so obviously he doesnīt talk about it.


Aleister Crowley took an interesting position on dignities for the outers. He assigned the then two known outer planets to the cardinal (I think Uranus I'm away from my books) mutable (Neptune ?) and fixed to the asteroids. I might have this mixed up and if it differes from something else I've posted her what I posted elsewhere is correct.

I don't know about Sepharial; Kim would.

Tom
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Puka



Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 1
Location: Taiwan

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: Classical Use of Triplicities Reply with quote

Klori wrote:
Hello...I was reading on this site "The Classical Use of Triplicities" and would be appreciative of recommendations on books on how to understand it and also apply such to charts more indepth
Klori


James Holden translated the Abu'Ali Al-Khayyat's
"The Judgement of Nativities" is a good soure to see how
arabic astrologer using Triplicities.
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Puka from Taiwan

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Student of Astrology(Western,Vedic,Chinese)
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Klori



Joined: 28 Sep 2005
Posts: 6

Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Puka for the suggestion of that book. I did get the "Essential Dignities"...not impressed with it. Frankly, this sites articles, forum posts and overall is more educational and informative.


Klori.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Klori and the rest...

Holden's book is a good book on natal/arabic astrology. Just remember that the Arabs used a different form of trip rulers than Lilly and they ALWAYS use 3 trip rulers [Fire: Sun Jupiter Saturn], [Air: Saturn Mercury Jupiter] [Earth: Venus Moon Mars] [Water: Venus Mars Moon] in these orders for diurnal/day chart. The first and the second trip rulers for each element are swapped for nocturnal/night charts. The third trip rulers remain the same. Abu Ali Al-Khayat took most of his materials from his teacher who took much from Dorotheus of Sidon, hence these trip rulers are called Dorotheus Triplicity rulers. I have used them extensively in my natal and chart readings and most of the time they seem to work.'


There are two ways where the triplicity rulers can be used.
1) To fine tune each house meanings giving three different planets to three different areas of each house, e.g. third house = siblings, but 1st trip ruler = elder siblings or superiors, 2nd trip ruler = siblings around the same age or peers, 3rd trip ruler = younger siblings or subordinates.

2) To determine which third part of life is good/bad (like what you read in the article "Classical Use of Triplicities"...



If you need more info on how to use them, please let me know...
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello everybody...

Could anyone please tell me where I can find books written by Vettius Valens (translation of course). I know that Project Hindsight carry these books (becasue they tranlated them) but they're out of print. I am really interested in getting these books (second or third hand is fine)...These are the only traditional/ancient books I wat that I don't have yet.

Thanx...
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe PH are bringing them back into publication as a new series.

Otherwise, the book worth getting (in fact worth getting anyway) is Greek Horoscopes by Neugebauer and Van-Hoesen, published by the American Philosophical Society. You can find it listed on this page (where you can order it online). It has many charts by Valens and is excellent value at $20 plus postage.

http://www.aps-pub.com/subjects.htm
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Project Hindsight is supposed to publish a series of translations under the name of The Astrologer's Edition. One can subscribe for the series or, I believe, purchse single editions (at a higher price). The work is centered around Valens' Anthology, Firmicus' Matheus, Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, and Hephistio of Thebes Apotelesmatics. Translator Robert Schmidt says these are four different approaches to Hellenistic astrology. If one wishes to become a minor authority in Hellenistic astrology this seems to be the way to go.

Although the prices may seem high, compared to other scholarly works they are cheap, so grab them if you're interested. Valens is supposed to be published first and I think it is due out almost any day. Go to the site for more information:

http://www.projecthindsight.com/products/translations.html#contents

or write any of these e-mail addresses:

info@projecthindsight.com
info@phaser.org
goldenhindpress@verizon.net

As Deb mentioned, Greek Horoscopes is a great bargain as well.

Tom
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanx Deb and Tom...
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to the triplicities rulers theme, Claude Dariot also uses them in the same way as described in the article (and as Astrojin describes above). His text isn’t very detailed but it is interesting as an example of this technique continuing into the late 16th century.

It should be available by Ascella though I’m not sure how easy it is to get any book from Ascella nowadays and notice the website has been down for some months now.
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aquirata



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 157
Location: Canada

Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm having another look at the various triplicity ruler schemes. It is clear, from what I've read on this subject so far, that Lilly and Morinus didn't have as good a handle on these as did Dariot, Valens and Dorotheus. So, in general, my preference is for the table as presented in the article The Classical Use of Triplicities on this site (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/triplicities.html).

This is an excellent article, by the way, but one would never expect anything less from Deb. One minor clarification I would humbly like put forward concerns what is most likely a typo: in the second paragraph of the Breakdown of Rulership Logic section, it is stated that "it might be argued that Mercury should take a part in ruling this [Earth] triplicity because of its dominion over Gemini...". Surely, Virgo was meant here.

But that's not why I'm writing this post - this was just a clumsy attempt to introduce the topic. What really bothers me about the Dariot triplicity arrangement is this. There are four triplicities, three day rulers and three night rulers. The night rulers are the day rulers repeated with the first two positions exchanged, so it will suffice to talk about the first set. Three times four is twelve positions in the day ruler table, for which we have seven planets. In the rulership scheme of things, this is very elegantly handled by giving the luminaries a domicile sign each, and a day and night house for the five remaining planets. However, in the Dariot table, the Moon gets two appearances at the expense of poor Mercury. Now, even though I have five planets in Virgo and my Lord of the Geniture is Mercury, I am not at all partial to this Messenger of God. But seeing it deposed by a luminary that already had her chance in Water is more than I can take!

That's right, IT. I do believe Mercury is neither just male or female, and neither simply diurnal or nocturnal. Rather, it's both of these things (all four - note that this also restores symmetry to the sects). So I naturally take exception when it is replaced by the Moon in the earthy triplicity. It doesn't have to be as it can be both diurnal and nocturnal. So I'd like to propose that this triplicity is ruled by Venus, Mercury and Mars during the day, and by Mercury, Venus and Mars during the night.

OK, I feel better already. While we're at it however, let me mention another inconsistency in the Dariot table. A closer inspection of the first daily rulers of triplicities reveals that they tend to be the domicile rulers of the fixed signs: Sun for Fire (Leo), Venus for Earth (Taurus) and Saturn for Air (Aquarius). But what happened with Water? Surely Mars having dominion over Scorpio should be the first daily ruler there and not Venus, who already took her turn in Earth. Not only that, but Venus was a substitution, so she can only take third place. The watery triplicity must therefore be ruled by Mars, Moon and Venus, in that order.

The night tables are easily generated from the above. As a closing note, I would like to make clear that I am not speaking from experience but simply looking at the table from a geometrical perspective. Experience can follow from here.

Ah, symmetry restored, harmony maintained... Can you guess my Ascendant and its dignified ruler?
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

To Aquirata,

Yeah... Symmetry, very seductive especially to us moderns...

I remember when a French(?) archeologist went to Egypt and when he discovered that the temples were not "aligned" properly he concluded that the ancient egyptians abhorred symmetry... He didn't realize that the temples were aligned to specific fixed stars... (in other words, the temples were symmetrical with the stars...)

So, when we look into some of the concepts of ancient astrology (e.g. Dorothean trigon/triplicity rulerships) we may not see the symmetry behind it and we probably never will find the reason for it... It is very tempting then to rearrange things to our symmetrical Greek/Modern thinking. Ptolemy rearranged the triplicity rulers to his liking and so did others (Morin, ...).
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aquirata



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
Posts: 157
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Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point. However, the rulership scheme itself is based on symmetry. Ptolemy's terms also, as you mention. Symmetry is not a modern concept at all.

The question is, is one arrangement better than the other? Is there experimental proof that Ptolemy's terms work better than Egyptian terms? Is there experimental proof that traditional rulers work better than modern rulers? Is there experimental proof that one house system works better than another? Tropical vs. sidereal zodiac? And so on.

What I was trying to point out was that the rationale for arranging the terms according to Dariot is not strong. Or rather, the rationale given assumes symmetry yet the sects violate that symmetry. It is not clear whether they "align" with something. So there is a potential problem.

To me the bottom line is always proof. It's great to respect tradition, but if we don't understand and can't explain or prove why we're doing astrology that way, it is blind faith. Which may work for some, it certainly doesn't for me. And I think most practising astrologers are looking for proof in their daily work, even if it is not an explicit search. But without positive feedback from clients, there is not much point in continuing.

The big question, "does astrology work?", is being answered by practicing astrologers in the affirmative, day in and day out. Does anyone take the time, however, to see why it works this way and not another way? Probably not, or not many. Is it possible to say why or how? Probably yes, but that takes extra effort. Which is what I'm interested in.
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