Secrets of the Star Disk

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Last night on Australian TV, there was a fascinating documentary from the BBC. It seems that the oldest example of a star chart is not from Egypt or Babylonia but from Europe - Germany to be exact. This is a disk that was discovered in 1999 and called the Nebra Sky Disk. They have scientifically determined the date of the disk to be around 1600BCE, 200 years older than the oldest known realistic star images from Egypt. This disk had the Sun and Moon as well as a number of stars, 7 of them since determined to be the Pleaides. There was also a crescent shaped image at the bottom of the disk that has been identified as the boat of Ra who carried the Sun across to the other side of the sky in time for it to rise again in the morning. This is all imagery that is familiar from the East but it had previously been unknown in Europe at that time. The people investigating this disk began to think that it may have originated in the East and found its way to Europe. But by a process of testing the copper of the disk and determining that it came from the area they realised it was probably local. The clinching factor was when shallow curves on the disk were measured and coincided exactly with the angles of mid summer and mid winter (the solstices) for that precise location. These angles could only occur at that latitude.
The upshot of all of this is that this disk has five of the major symbols - Sun, Moon, solstices, a sun ship and the Pleiades - that we expect to see in Egypt but not in Europe. This suggests that civilization in Europe was much more sophisticated during the Bronze Age than previously thought.

If anyone is interested in this, I found the transcript for the programme on the BBC website.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... rans.shtml

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thank you from me too Sue!


I've found it very interesting more so since last thursday night - I/we (husband and I) did a little stargazing. It was a wonderfully clear night my husband was in awe of Mars and then I dug out one of the kids little telescopes to take a closer look at the seven sisters (pleiades) which I could just make out with the naked eye. Fantastic!

I think I'm gonna put telescope on my christmas list!
:D

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asside from the Pleides there seems to be about 21 stars running about in that disc, any idea on the identification? also interesting that it is sun and what apears to be waning(?) moon, since this whole piece apears very deliberate, I'm thinking that has its significance as well? A harvest piece?
also there appears to be 45 divets holding the piece together if I counted right, which means the sky is devided by 8 degrees (360/45=8)

interesting piece.

thanks, Granny.

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asside from the Pleides there seems to be about 21 stars running about in that disc, any idea on the identification?

They are apparently for decoration only and are only random. This is believed to be for the purpose of getting the Pleiades constellation to stand out and reveal its importance.
also interesting that it is sun and what apears to be waning(?) moon, since this whole piece apears very deliberate, I'm thinking that has its significance as well? A harvest piece?

They believe that it is representative of an approaching eclipse where the Moon is partly obscured by the Sun. The disk was discovered in a pit within a ring wall. It appears that it was used as some sort of observatory during the Bronze Age. It was designed in a way that the Sun would disappear directly behind the Brocken (Northern Germany's highest mountain) every solstice.
also there appears to be 45 divets holding the piece together if I counted right, which means the sky is devided by 8 degrees 360/45=8
Not sure about that. Bits of the edges are missing. For example, the left side of the disk had to be recreated so who knows exactly how many are there.

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I am posting this question on behalf of a friend who is not a Forum member.

Her question is ''has this Star disk been totally discredited now by academics or are there still authorities willing to support it as a genuine artifact from the period claimed?''

Any informed comments would be appreciated.

Mark

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Hi Mark,

No, the interpretation of this disk has not been entirely discredited except by those who do not consider the star knowledge of these ancient people as existing at that time. The idea that Europeans were aware of such information at that time is still relatively new . I would say that contrary to this work being discredited, there appears to be further evidence from other researchers that the original hypothesis of the disk is correct. There are the detractors, of course but it continues to be taken seriously by some.

Not long after the disk was discovered, research was released on a henge from the same area that some researchers now believe to be a solar circle. Scholars have known about these henges for about a hundred years but have failed to understand exactly what they are. Basically, the henge looks a bit like a crop circle. There are two circular fences, one contained within the other, made of hundreds of posts of oak and surrounded by a ditch. The gates are aligned to the solstices and equinoxes. There have been signs of ritual practices, including human sacrifice.

This henge, discovered some time ago, is believed to be 2,000 years older that the disk. There is some current speculation that the disk was a product of observations from this site. They were discovered only about 20 miles or so apart. Researchers believe this site to be a 7,000 year solar circle, making it older, by about 2,000 years, than the pyramids of Egypt. No one knew what they were when they were discovered but in the 80's researchers began to hypothesise that the henges were oriented toward celestial objects that marked the passing of the seasons. Some of the gates of the henge appeared to face the rise of the constellation Pleiades (the point of the winter solstice at that time) and some point to the Sun during the same period. Using modern computer technology they were able to prove their hypothesis.

As with all academic research, such as the star disk, this research has its detractors. There have been no conclusions made about this site. However, one of the difficulties is that this, along with the star disk, can completely change the perceptions that Europeans had no knowledge of such celestial matters while the Babylonians and Egyptians did. It requires a mind shift of quite large proportions and many academics are not prepared to do that. One detractor said that it was stupid to believe that they would build a structure that was only relevant a couple of times a year. Obviously, he hasn?t heard of Stonehenge. He takes issue with the idea that these henges are the first solar observatories because he argues that Central European farmers were able to identify the solstices much earlier than 4700BCE (when this henge has been dated). Most scholars agree that there were probably multiple purposes for these henges but some are convinced that one purpose was to identify the solstices. A researcher from Vienna said the idea that you look through the gate at the sky was unheard of in academia thirty years ago. ?They would have been afraid for their career.? he said. This is not quite true but you really have to have a well established career to be taken seriously and not be afraid to risk ridicule. There are numerous 'big names' in Babylonian and Egyptian research of astrology/astronomy but not too many outside these areas.

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Hello Sue,

Thanks for replying and giving so much of your time to this. My friend will be very happy to hear the cause of the Star disk is far from lost!

Mark

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one other note that I dont see here, Linda Reid noted on another forum, that what they are calling the boat of RA, looks to be a represetnation of the ecliptic. I have to admit it doesn't look like a boat to me, doesnt' even look like a poor representation of a boat to me. I think she has a better grasp there. in fact the whole boat of ra remark reminds me of the worst habit of Some Archaeologists, if you dont have a clue its obviously "a religious symbol of great significance we may not ever fully realize..." archaeology is one of my favorite subjects, but occasionally.... sigh...

Granny

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I was looking through some of my archaeology magazines last night and came upon an article from late last year on the debunking of the Sky Disk. It seems that it all started when an archaeologist claimed that the disk was a fake. He wrote a letter to a German newspaper claiming that the green of the disk had been created by a modern mixture of acid and urine. This became big news in the media and was played up as some sort of a drama worthy of an Indiana Jones movie. The two people who were (and still are I believe) on trial for stealing the disk in the first place called this archaeologist to be a witness, arguing that they cannot be charged with stealing an artefact that was a fake (they had no idea about the authenticity or otherwise when they stole it). But apparently, when the archaeologist who said it was a fake gave evidence it came out that he had never even seen the disk nor had he published any findings. He became a bit of a laughing stock in the archaeology community. He sticks by his claims and swears that he has a lot of support from other archaeologist for his claim of fakery but that they are all choosing to remain hidden until he publishes his findings. The fact that they are not public about this (if, indeed, there are ?others?) is a bit suspicious to me and suggests that they are not prepared to stand by their convictions. The archaeologist who made the original claims of fakery still hasn?t examined the disk but is relying on photographs for his claim.

Apparently the German legal system allows for defendants (the two who are on trial for stealing this and other artefacts) to dispute each separate claim against factual statements of which there are nearly a hundred just on the site of where the disk was discovered. The court has to listen to each and every claim regardless of how strange it may seem.

Anyway, the disk has apparently undergone a battery of tests that appear to support the authenticity of the disk. However, as one of the archaeologists involved said, the damage has already been done. Most people will make up their minds based on the drama surrounding the disk and not the disk itself.