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Ideas I've heard/had

 
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wiccamoon13



Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Saint Augustine, FL

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:54 pm    Post subject: Ideas I've heard/had Reply with quote

Hi, Some friends and I have these ideas that we would like to throw out to a group of seasoned astrologers. I'm not sure exactly where we got all these, but we'd like a more knowledgeable opinion.

First, Mars as water sign Triplicity ruler. We don't understand why Mars is the water ruler, instead of Jupiter. We looked at the water signs, and Mars had Dignity in Scorpio, but Fall in Cancer, and nothing too important in Pisces. Howere, Jupiter is Dignified in Pisces, and in Exaltation in Cancer, with little to talk about in Scorpio. Also, Mars is hot and dry, making me think something like daytime fire sign ruler, and Jupiter is hot and moist, like maybe the water ruler for day and night?

Second is Mercury's Exaltation. Somewhere, one of us got the idea that Mercury was in it's Fall in Leo, and Exaltation in Aquarius. Well, we can't see how it can be both in Dignity and Exaltation in Virgo. Both? Huh? I personally could understand it's Fall in Pisces, but if Mercury rules Virgo, it's just Dignity and Detriment, so I think we should toss around those other signs. I think the whole fixed air sign and fixed fire sign help flesh out the other attributions.

Finally, Uranus in Scorpio. We wonder why it is that the most cerebral planet is Exalted in the fixed water sign, 10th ray from it's Dignity, ruled by self-centered, harsh Mars. Instead, we propose Sagittarius, thinking that a Fire sign would support individualityand creativity, and give healthy expression to the cerebral Uranus. Also, we figure something like going to a different country or moving to college, while both Sagittarian, are still fresh and breaking ground, supporting Uranus. We just thought the philosophical and abstract ideas of Sag would work out better than the sign of "sex, death, and taxes."

I'd love feedback, if anyone knows if these are all ready in use somewhere maybe or any support for the older way of doing things would help us learn too, thanx!
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well first there is a whole section on dignity on this main page, which seems would help clarify a lot of these questions.

Mercury is in its fall in Pisces not Leo, is in detriment in Pisces and Sagitarius, it is in detriment in these signs because it is opposite the signs it rules, Virgo and Gemini.

Jupiter Rules Pisces and Sagitarius, why they have mars for Trip of all the water signs I dunno, but possibly Deb or someone else can answer, Mars is the Ruler of Scorpio, so well placed there, but as you say, is in fall in Cancer so??? hmmm I"m with you on this one, mars as water triplicity seems a bit off to me to. I would have thought the moon, as ruler of cancer, but it is in fall in Scorpio.. so all three of the water rulers are in detriment in one of the water signs, makes it hard to consider doesn't it. =)

Granny
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wiccamoon13



Joined: 01 Nov 2005
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:30 am    Post subject: Sect? Reply with quote

Maybe because of the day and night sect planets, I thought today. The day planets were the Sun, Jupiter and Saturn (i guess they just threw Mercury in there to round out the air signs, since he's neuter and belongs to neither sex). The Moon, Venus, and Mars are the night sect planets. I think the sect idea was around before Diginities, thou.
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jupiter rules the fire nights...
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone interested in the origin of the dignities might want to find a copy of Lee Lehman's book: Essential Dignities (Whitford Press, 1989). It goes into the subject in some depth and discusses most, if not all the scholarship on the subject available at that time.

Quote:
First, Mars as water sign Triplicity ruler. We don't understand why Mars is the water ruler, instead of Jupiter. We looked at the water signs, and Mars had Dignity in Scorpio, but Fall in Cancer, and nothing too important in Pisces. Howere, Jupiter is Dignified in Pisces, and in Exaltation in Cancer, with little to talk about in Scorpio. Also, Mars is hot and dry, making me think something like daytime fire sign ruler, and Jupiter is hot and moist, like maybe the water ruler for day and night?


There are a few triplicity rulership systems out there, Lilly/Ptolemy gives Mars rulership over water day and night. Dorotheus gives Venus day rulership, Mars night rulership and the Moon as the participating ruler of water. Morinus had his own system which we will not discuss here. It is a mistake to look at domicile rulerships to determine triplicity rulers. They system did not evolve that way. Mars is a hot and dry malefic. In order to "cool its ardor" it was assigned to water. In other words Mars as triplicity ruler of the water signs will behave somewhat better in those signs. He rules Scorpio, but Cancer is somewhat problematic. Ramesey puts it this way:

Quote:
Mars both night and day hath assigned to him chief dominion of the Watery Triplicity; this triplicity is northern, certainly the reason why Mars was assigned chief rule of water was to cool his courage and abate his heat ..."


In other words the "assignments" were made to show which signs produced the best behaved planets.

Quote:
Second is Mercury's Exaltation. Somewhere, one of us got the idea that Mercury was in it's Fall in Leo, and Exaltation in Aquarius. Well, we can't see how it can be both in Dignity and Exaltation in Virgo. Both? Huh? I personally could understand it's Fall in Pisces, but if Mercury rules Virgo, it's just Dignity and Detriment, so I think we should toss around those other signs. I think the whole fixed air sign and fixed fire sign help flesh out the other attributions.


NCGR and other modern organizations have, for some peculiar reason taken offense to Mercury's domicile rulership and exaltation in the same sign. To put Mercury elsewhere is a bit whimsical as there are several systems floating around as there are exaltation rulerships given for the three outers: Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. Whether these systems have any merit remains to be seen, but they should not be confused with the traditional rulerships that have been around since the Hellenistic Greeks and perhaps before, and therein lies the problem.

Because all astrologers use pretty much the same vocabulary, it is assumed that we all mean the same thing when we use the same words. In the case of the word "rulership" this isn't so. To a modern a planet "rules" a sign because it has an affinity with that sign (e.g. Mars and Aries). In traditional astrology a planet rules a sign (or signs except for the Sun and Moon) because it is strong there. It is best behaved when it is strong. Mars is very strong in Scorpio despite Mars being hot and dry and Scorpio being cold and moist. The Same is true for Jupiter and Sagittarius or Pisces since Jupite is warm and moist and those signs are hot and dry - cold and moist respectively.

The exact origin of the exaltations isn't clear. Declination may have played a role. But Mercurygovernor of the rational mind seems especially well placed in Virgo so he is the domicile ruler. A planet in exaltation is one who is "above his station." He is the honored guest whom we dote on, when he comes to dinner, but who cannot take the silveware home with him as it isn't his (or he shouldn't). So why would Mercury get to be the honored guest and keep the silverware? To me at least this is the essence of Mercury. He is a tricky, elusive, and shifty character who is not to be trusted, but his rational mind is needed.

There is a wonderful myth, Norse I think, of Loki (Mercury) whom the other gods wisely chained to a rock perhaps in order to control him. The end of the world comes when Loki escapes and takes over (exaltation) the world. Think HAL in 2001 A Space Oddessy as Loki. Mercury's dual nature is one we need to always keep in check lest he get carried away with himself.

Virgo being a dual or mutable sign is the perfect place to keep Mercury in check and a watchful eye on him lest he become too big for his britches.


Quote:
Finally, Uranus in Scorpio. We wonder why it is that the most cerebral planet is Exalted in the fixed water sign, 10th ray from it's Dignity, ruled by self-centered, harsh Mars. Instead, we propose Sagittarius, thinking that a Fire sign would support individualityand creativity, and give healthy expression to the cerebral Uranus. Also, we figure something like going to a different country or moving to college, while both Sagittarian, are still fresh and breaking ground, supporting Uranus. We just thought the philosophical and abstract ideas of Sag would work out better than the sign of "sex, death, and taxes."



Uranus as the most cerebral planet is not a traditional idea. Mercury is the cerebral planet (see above) along with the Moon. Uranus among moderns is almost as bad as Neptune in acquiring meanings. Frankly this is the first time I've ever seen Uranus described as cerebral.

Uranus' exaltation is fixed by the modern astrologers and I've seen a few of these too. I've seen in exalted in Leo (Neptune, too) making Uranus (or Neptune) greater than the king (why do you think no traditional planets are exalted in Leo?) Since most of us do not accept Uranus "rulership" of Aquarius, there is no need to assign an exaltation to this slow moving planet, and to date I've seen nothing wiely accepted.

I hope this helps.

Tom
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wiccamoon13



Joined: 01 Nov 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Saint Augustine, FL

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:07 pm    Post subject: oy? Reply with quote

huh. i thought i.hickey's "higher octave" metaphor between Mercury and Uranus was widely known. same w/ aquarius, the fixed air sign; that's where all the cerebral talk came from.
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never put much faith in the "higher octave" stuff. It seems like just an excuse to transfer rulerships from a classical planet to an outer.

Quote:
oc·tave (ktv, -tv) KEY

NOUN:

Music
The interval of eight diatonic degrees between two tones of the same name, the higher of which has twice as many vibrations per second as the lower.
A tone that is eight diatonic degrees above or below another given tone.
Two tones eight diatonic degrees apart that are sounded together.
The consonance that results when two tones eight diatonic degrees apart are sounded.
A series of tones included within this interval or the keys of an instrument that produce such a series.
An organ stop that produces tones an octave above those usually produced by the keys played.
The interval between any two frequencies having a ratio of 2 to 1.
Ecclesiastical
The eighth day after a feast day, counting the feast day as one.
The entire period between a feast day and the eighth day following it.
A group or series of eight.

A group of eight lines of poetry, especially the first eight lines of a Petrarchan sonnet. Also called octet .
A poem or stanza containing eight lines.
Sports A rotating parry in fencing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I've never understood how the word "octave" fits into this "scheme." The original question pertained to the essential dignities. I've never mixed traditional ideas with new age jargon. My own experience with Uranus is that it seems to pertain to separations, such as divorce, and perhaps upheaval at times, that's about it. Modern astrologers, who seem to increasingly depend on the outer planets for almost all their needs (why use Mercury when we have the higher octave available?) will disagree.

I use Mercury for the rational mind and the Moon for imagination and other kinds of non-linear thinking. There is little that is cerebral about eccentricity.

Tom
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wiccamoon13



Joined: 01 Nov 2005
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Location: Saint Augustine, FL

Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"My own experience with Uranus is that it seems to pertain to separations, such as divorce, and perhaps upheaval at times, that's about it. Modern astrologers, who seem to increasingly depend on the outer planets for almost all their needs (why use Mercury when we have the higher octave available?) will disagree. "


?
hmm...i thought we all knew of Uranus as a co-ruler...
even if it did symbolize even those 3 things, what sign would be best to handle it? i would think the changing-est sign, mutable fire, or mutable water.
also, most people seem to find, as the planet that is past Saturn, it is a little past man, like the Everyman, or humanitarian ideals, or breaking through w/ what man can do, like crazy science. Mostly logical things, or thought-forms, right?

as for mercury, i mean, pisces is mutable too. sagittarius is mutable and dual, but not quite the same situation. but a place where mercury is put on a pedestal? i have mercury in scorpio, and some site said that because the moon did bad there, cerebral mercury did well there. scorpio for exaltation?
Shocked

sorry, i have a sun-uranus-asc conjunction in early Sag...i can't help but shift it a little.
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al Habashi



Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 17
Location: DEEP DARK WALES

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:03 am    Post subject: Ideas Reply with quote

I can only agree with all that's been said about traditional "rulerships" and the extraneous quality of the planets invisible to the naked eye. Just an additional thought about the triplicity rulers, to quash any notion that Jupiter should be associated with the Water trigon.

First, note that there is a hierarchy of rarity among the elements: Fire (hot/dry, masculine) is the rarest and thus rises highest; Air (hot/moist, masculine) lies below Fire, as it is somewhat denser, but still rises; below that lies Water (cold/moist, feminine), which is denser still and sinks; Earth (cold/dry, feminine) is the densest element and sinks most, forming the earth beneath our feet, the centre of the Cosmos, below all the concentric heavens.

Fire, as the most rarified, is considered the most noble, and demands rulership by the noblest planets. The Fire triplicity is ruled solely by masculine planets of the diurnal sect (Sun by day, Jupiter by night and Saturn assists). Thus it is ruled by the Lord of the Day and the Greater Benefic and Malefic.

Air, less noble than Fire but moreso than the feminine elements, deserves relatively noble rulers. Thus the Air triplicity is ruled by two diurnal planets, Saturn (day ruler) and Jupiter (assistant), with Mercury the planet whose sect, and gender, varies according to accidental conditions (night ruler).

According to Dorotheus and his Arab followers, the two centripetal elemental triplicities at the ignoble end of the hierarchy, Water and Earth, are ruled by the planets of the nocturnal sect: Moon, Mars, Venus (Venus day ruler for each, Moon night ruler of Earth and Mars night ruler of Water, with the assistant ruler the omitted third planet of the sect).

In this way I hope you can see that the noble, superior, masculine, Greater Benefic could never rule the ignoble, sinking, feminine Water triplicity.

So how can Jupiter "rule" Pisces? That's another story!
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Tom
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Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So how can Jupiter "rule" Pisces? That's another story!


And when you tell us, you will also no doubt include how Jupiter can be exalted in Cancer.

Good post.

Tom
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Air as the most rarified element and Earth as the densest element seem to be helpful and useful concepts; they tell us something about the properties of the elements. But noble and ignoble? I wonder if we really want to use such terminology. It seems to only serve as a means of judging the desirability of the elements. To my way of thinking the elements just are: they each take their place in the four-part cross.
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al Habashi



Joined: 04 Feb 2006
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Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kirk

I'm referring to a geocentric model of the cosmos here, in which Earth is the the "kernel" within the three concentric rings of the other elements: Fire is the outermost, most rarified, followed by Air, then Water. I suggest you could look at (Pseudo-)Aristotle's "Meteorolgica", Burkhardt's stodgy synopsis of Muhyaddin ibn al-Arabi's astrological work (I forget the title), or my favourite, the early chapters of the "Turba Philosophorum" that you can find on the "levity alchemy" website. This is a different way of looking at the elements to that of the cross scheme you mention.

As for the relative nobility of the elements, there is a traditional basis for the notion. Just as the Sky without Stars (the intelligible sphere of the terrestrial directions and the turnings of the Sun) is more noble than the Sky of Fixed stars (as it is closer to the realm of the Real, God, etc), which is more noble than the Sky of Saturn and so on, so in the sub-lunary world there is a corresponding hierarchy of the elements. Each level (Sky/Heaven/Element) is simultaneously the "heaven" of the level below and the "earth" of the level above. Bear in mind too that Earth, in Plato's view, is different to the other elements as it is formed of blunt right-angle triangles, whereas the others are made up of sharper ones (that sounds very sketchy, but its late and you can check it out in one of the appendices of Agrippa's Three Books).

Alchemically we might say that Earth is base and ignoble, while Fire is transformative and noble, but both are indispensible to the Work. Without contrast we are left with homogeneity, and without judgement we are left in a quandary (patronising pedagogue, moi?).

As a matter of interest, in one (which?) of the first eight chapters of the Turba we meet the idea that Air and Water are essentially the same: Air is rarified Water, and Water is thick Air. Does this idea shed light on the nature of Venus? I think it is Mas'sallah that uniquely (?) states that Venus is Hot and Moist = Air = Sanguine, just like the other benefic Jupiter. This makes some sense as the astrologers of old did seem to favouritise the sanguine humour. Al-Biruni, Aboaly, ibn Ezra et al. all make Venus Cold and Moist, like the Moon. This too makes sense as it retains her feminine nature and echoes the Greek myth of her genesis, but Aphrodite barely seems phlegmatic. That's puzzled me for years.
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