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Naming of Lilly's Christian Astrology

 
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is off the exact topic of the subject of earthquakes, but it's been on my mind a lot.

Quote:
Christian Astrology… the title, while off-putting to some, really seems irrelevant to the content, which is astrology

I could not disagree more. Religion is at the core of Lilly’s astrology. Read his introduction.

Quote:
In the first place, consider and admire thy Creator, and be thankful unto him, be thou humble, and let no natural knowledge, how profound and transcendent soever it be, elate thy minde to neglect that divine Providence, by whose all-seeing order and appointment, all things heavenly and earthly, have their constant motion, but the more thy knowledge is enlarged, the more do thou magnifie the power and wisdom of Almighty God, and strive to preseve thy self in his favour; being confident, the more holy thou art; and more neer to God, the purer Judgment thou shalt give.

While there is no mention of Jesus in Christian Astrology, religion suffuses the whole work. I think we do our studies a huge injustice if we ignore the religious implications of our work. At first I ignored what this all means and just learned my craft. I guess I was still holding onto the modern belief that astrology works by some sort of physical laws, like gravity or magnetism. My belief about religion is that it’s personal and the less said, the better. Astrology is personal, meaningful, spiritual and can be part of a religious life. Read that great article by Angela Voss. She cites four levels to astrology – the first two are obvious to anyone who works with it - the physical planets, and what they signify. So we have the physical planet Jupiter, and in a given chart it signifies say, your job. There are two further levels beyond that, the moral and the spiritual. And that is where the real understanding of traditional astrology comes in. So at the moral level, we are presented a choice of how we help someone who’s asked a question, because at the heart of every horary is a person in need. The spiritual level comes in as we realize that the person asking the question has been lead to us, or else the chart would not be radical. So we are connected to the person in need via the chart. I won’t say any more. It’s all there in every chart.
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There has often been debate about why Lilly called his book Christian Astrology. I don't think anyone knows for sure. Lee Lehman said something along the lines that it was to clearly separate it from the works of the Arabs. I'm not so sure. Others believe it was to appease Christians that astrology was legitimate within Christianity. But I have often wondered whether it was somehow related to the fact that Robert Fludd published a hugely successful book in 1629 called Medicina Catholica or Catholic Medicine. It is unlikely that Lilly was unaware of this book so maybe he took the very similar title and adapted it for his astrology book. Of course, I have nothing to support this theory. I am merely speculating
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we can have it both ways with the title of CA. While Lilly's understanding of astrology does seem to rest on his religious faith, there really is nothing explicitly Christian abou the work. He doesn't talk about Jesus, sin and salvation, the resurection, or heaven, which are the hallmarks of Christianity. He does talk about the Divine will, Providence, the blessings of God, etc. From what he's said, Lilly could just as easily have been a Jew, Muslim or even a Unitarian. I suspect that Lilly did put the word Christian in the title for many reasons, one of which could have been to distinguish himself from the Catholics and Arabs. But the work is totally grounded in religion, an idea which gets negelcted when it's said to ignore the title, that it was named just so that Lilly wouldn't get arrested by the Puritans.

Sorry to get off the topic of earthquakes. The people in Pakistan do seem to have been forgotten, which I guess is natural, if sad, with all the disasters that we've had this year. If I could tie these two subjects together - earhtquake predictions and religion - I'd say that too often astrology is looked up as a parlor trick. "See? I can predict the weather and earthquakes." Sometimes the way horary is handled, it reminds me of the magician saying, "Pick a card, pick any card." More and more I see that our charts are messages from God, and if we can predict earthquakes, then the reason that we've been given that gift is not to impress our friends, but to warn the people who may be killed or injured. Especially with mundane astrology, that seems to be forgotten a lot.
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I think we can have it both ways with the title of CA. While Lilly's understanding of astrology does seem to rest on his religious faith, there really is nothing explicitly Christian about the work.


He may have been religous but he rarely missed an opportunity to blast the clergy:

Quote:
The remainder of my Fish I freely remitted, though the hireling priest of Walton affirmed I had satisfaction for it, but he never hurt himself with a lie.
"

"Fish Stolen" page 399



Tom
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some references in his book are very funny in the way he shows his total disgust of church men and priests. I like his section: “If an idle, covetous priest shall obtain a good parsonage, yea or no?” (p.432) where some good aspects might show them getting it without having to bribe.

“But to know whether the Benefice be a lusty one or not, or worth acceptance,(a thing considerable;) consider the 10th house, the Lord thereof, and Planet or Planets therein places; Planets well dignified and angular, show hopes, and are sure testimonies of a good thumping Benefice.”

And here we see his motivation:

“And now I wonder why some wooden Clergy should so preach against me and Astrology; I never either countenancing or maintaining one heretical position, or persuading any person to attain a Benefice by Simony, or professing more than Astrology, of which these men are as ignorant (the most of them as Asses;) witness Astrologo-Mastix, a most absurd Coxcomb, to meddle with what he knows not.”

I wonder if his 'if obtain the parsonage desired' chart was gleefully selected so he could show up a covenous parson being undone by his meddling with a female. Smile

Yes I think Lilly was deeply sincere in his respect for the Christian principles he would have found expressed in his philosophical sources, but he hated insincerity and hypocracy, especially in the wranglings of the church.
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
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Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marc,

I was trying to tactfully suggest to the poster, that the book has merrit for those who are not christian. As a Pakistani is unlikely to be Christian.
(and may not necessarily have good views of that religion either)

Granny
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granny,

I apologize if I made it seem like I was criticizing you. I realized what you were doing and why. The name is a bit controversial for a lot of people. I know some Christian fundamentalsts who I am sure would be be more angry because of that very word in the title.

And Deb, I had forgot about all of Lilly's comments about the clergy. That's one thing that I like about Lilly is that he'd very direct, you know what he thinks and how he feels. It makes his writings a lot more interesting, and him seem more human. The same thing can be said for Ficino; you really feel that you know the man after reading him.

And I do think that Lilly's feelings on the clergy came out of his deep religious background. If here were not personally religious, he wouldn't have cared as much about the behavior of the clergy.

Again, I'm sorry if I made it seem like I was citing Granny here. I wasn't clear about that. I don't want this subject to turn into one of those topics that goes on and on AND ON, with some people talking past everyone, and splitting hairs, "to no nice conclusion", to quote Lilly.

This is probably best suited to a new topic, but I am curious about what people think of the religious implications of traditional work. More and more I think that the two can't be separated.
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Deb
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Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've split and moved the topic as you can see. Hope to get back to this a little later when I'm not quite so busy as I am right now.
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

speaking of Mars Rx, In Taurus, well standing still about to go forward... being a taurus, is it driving you crazy? its about to make one last pass over my natal venus, I was kinda hoping that would be a nice transit, but so far, nothing great. sigh... Dear Prince charming you're late! Lady toad...

Granny
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