skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Sample Decumbiture Per Richard Saunders

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:12 am    Post subject: Sample Decumbiture Per Richard Saunders Reply with quote

Greetings, Skyscripters!

I recieved a decumbiture time from a querent who had blood and urine tested today at 2:20 pm. She has more than one condition which might cause edema in her lower legs and feet; she specifically asked which of her conditions (heart, kidneys, recent fasting) is the culprit this time.

The time of a blood or urine test is usually considered acceptable as a time of decumbiture; I wonder if this really is a valid time of decumbiture, but I will be glad to discuss that question on another occaision.

The querent has also given permission for us to use this chart as a sample; we can look at it as Saunders would have done to illustrate his techniques.

Decumbiture: Edema in Lower Legs
January 27, 2006
2:30 PM Eastern Standard Time
Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
23 Gemini ascends
Regiomontanus Houses

[Inserted comment by Deb: Chart is shown further down the page, using the time of 2:20 pm as mentioned earlier, not 2:30 pm]

First I would like to say a word about Saunders' methods. He fully expects someone to be quite ill when their decumbiture is cast. The literal meaning of the word "Decumbiture" is "lying down". Interestingly, "decubitus" is the fancy medical name for bedsores, from the same Latin root word referring to being stuck in bed. Most of us have to be pretty sick to take to our beds. This degree of illness will be reflected in the chart by the activity of one or more morbificant planets. Any of the 7 traditional planets can be a morbificant planet (planet causing disease). Here is how we identify the morbificant planets: they either conjunct, square or oppose the Lord of the Ascendant (representing the querent), the Moon (representing the course of the illness), or the degree of the Ascendant (representing the body of the querent). Either separating (past) or applying (future) aspects count. --AJP Vol. 1 p. 13

Absent such an aspect, it is likely that the querent is not truly physically ill--or not seriously so. We expect to find such aspects in this chart, and we will not be disappointed!

Upon first glance at the decumbiture chart, the Moon is the significator of the course of the illness. The Moon represents all acute illness. If the illness has not resolved by the time the Moon comes back to the same degree and minute next month (actually a little over 27 days on average), using the same decumbiture chart, the Sun becomes the significator of the course of the illness. The Sun is significator of all chronic illness. --AJP Vol. 1 p.26

We will be using the Moon in this chart, since we do not yet know if the illness will outlast a month (whether it is acute or chronic).

We also look to the timing of the Moon in relationship to the Sun. Saunders reveals that he has discovered that the sixth house cusp is the one indicating the illness in charts with a waning Moon; in charts with a waxing Moon, the tweflth house cusp is the one indicating the illness. --AJP Vol. 2 p. 1

In this chart, we will use the sixth house cusp for the illness, since the Moon is waning.

Saunders instructs us to see if the chart is radical by finding out whether Lord of the Ascendant and the Lord of the Hour are of the same triplicity. The Lord of the Ascendant and the Lord of the Hour are both Mercury, so the chart is radical.

We will start looking at this chart as Saunders would. He wants to find the morbificant planet(s) and aspects. Then he uses the same aspects to look for signs of mortality: will the querent surivive the illness? --AJP Vol. 2 p. 172, 173

In his day, I'm sure this question had grim overtones and it would have been a very serious matter to convey a negative outcome to the querent. We are fortunate enough to live in a time when many of the ills of Saunders' day can be overcome. But I imagine it would still be useful for the querent to be on the lookout when particularly difficult health problems are nearing. We do not want to frighten the querent or oppress her spirits with a heavy prediction. Yet we may find a tactful way to warn the querent that a chart with heavy indications of mortality may indicate that extra care for her health over the next few weeks or months would pay dividends in extending the good years of her health.

Morbificant Planets:

Saturn, Sun, Jupiter

The Lord of the Ascendant is Mercury at 8 Aquarius, separating from an opposition to Saturn at 7 Leo, combust by the Sun at 7 Aquarius, and applying to a square of Jupiter at 16 Scorpio.

Moon at 12 Capricorn squares the Nodes at 6 Aries and 6 Libra and applies to conjunction with Venus at 16 Capricorn.

So, Saunders would ask, are any of these conditions mortal? Saunders takes three mortal conditions, without the assistance of benefics, as a sure sign of death. --AJP Vol. 2, 172, 173

We don't have to make such a drastic prediction in our day, but we will still get an idea how serious this health problem is from this same information.

Mortal Conditions (Signa Fatala) --AJP Vol. 1 p. 39-64:

1) Saturn, Lord of the Eighth (of death), opposed the Lord of the Ascendant

2) Lord of the Ascendant combust the Sun

3) Moon by the cusp of the Eighth House (distant by five degrees and ten minutes, so this may not be a true Eighth House Moon).

Signs of Recovery (Signa Vita) --AJP Vol. 1 p. 64:

Immediately upcoming conjunctions, trines, or sextiles of the Moon to Jupiter or Venus are considered to mitigate the effects of mortal signs.

1) Moon next applies to a conjunction with Venus

2) Moon thereafter applies to a sextile with Jupiter. We don't count Jupiter as a true benefic in this chart, however, because Jupiter squares the Lord of the Ascendant and is therefore a morbificant planet.


In conclusion, with regard to mortality, this is quite a potent chart; the implications are that the querent's continuing good health is in question just now. But there are good hopes of recovery thanks to the Moon's next aspect, which is a conjunction with Venus. We can urge the querent to attend carefully to her health just now, yet we anticipate with care she will recover in the future.

And now for the querent's question: What caused the swelling in her legs?

Saunders uses the most recent aspect of the Moon to find the cause of the illness. --AJP, Vol. 2, p. 8

"Look to the Lord of the sixth or twelfth, and to the Planet from which the Moon doth separate."

We know that we need to look to the Lord of the sixth, Mars, because the Moon is waning on this chart. The Moon is most recently separating from Saturn; we have to use a past aspect from several days ago because the Moon has been Void of Course since a trine to Saturn while in Sagittarius.

The Moon separated from a trine to Saturn and Mars rules the sixth.

"If the Moon separate from Saturn. . . the sick person hath taken thought, and inward griefs. . . and if Mars be Lord of the sixth, then by a strain or bruise."

The querent has described the reason she undertook a strict fast several weeks ago. She was concerned about her high blood pressure and wanted to know if her diet was causing it. She went without eating, and drank only water for two weeks. A week later after she began to eat again, her legs began swelling. There is a way to tell if the problem was caused by diet (which usually means eating too much or eating the wrong kinds of food), but in this case there was no diet--just a lack of one. So with the Moon separating from Saturn, the querent's concerns about her health and restriction (Saturn) of her intake seem to have led her to damage herself further. I think we might say this fast was a "strain" (Mars) to her already delicate system, and caused the eventual swelling in her legs.

That is my first hypothesis. I would like to examine the chart in more detail and look at the humours and the body systems involved in the disease to see if we can draw any more conclusions. But I will save it for another post!

Warmest regards,

Pam
_________________
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pam,

This is an interesting post. Thanks for the effort you went to.

Just a couple of things. I don't seem to be able to get a chart with 23deg ascendant with the details you have given. I get 25deg. It doesn't matter a huge amount. You mentioned that the Moon was 5deg and 10 mins from the cusp of the 8th house. I get the Moon firmly in the 7th. However, even at 5deg and 10 min I would see it as being in the 7th.

I have a copy of Saunders but I do not have access to it at the moment. I have not read it closely and most of my decumbiture information comes from Culpeper. I have always taken the first and the sixth house rulers as the primary significators for a decumbiture chart. Generally, if the ruler of the ascendant is strong, and the ruler of the sixth is weak, the querent has the ability to overcome the condition. In this case, Mercury, ruler of the ascendant, is in a weak position, being combust the Sun. The Moon and Mars are in mutual reception by exaltation but they are both in detriment. Mars is also in the twelfth house, a weaked position. This suggests perhaps that the querent will not overcome this condition any time soon.

I'm also wondering what Jupiter is doing on the cusp of the sixth house. Does the condition have anything to do with excesses in some way?

When Saunders talks about determining the morbificant, you said that either separating or applying aspects count. Does he make any differentiation between them at all? Does he see the separating ones as becoming less dangerous, for example?

I understand and agree with the emphasis on the Moon and that it shows the course of the illness but I would see the course of the illness and the illness itself as two different things. I would still see the ruler of the sixth house as representing the illness. This is Mars. A lot of traditional authors, including Saunders, say that Mars rules the kidneys. Saunders gives the Moon, Venus and Saturn to edema.

I'm not sure if I understand correctly, but is Saunders saying that to determine the cause of the illness, we look to the ruler of the sixth if the Moon is waning and to the ruler of the twelfth if the Moon is waxing?

As to the timing of the chart, I suppose that the time of some tests is a potential for the timing of the chart. I would probably be more inclined to choose the timing of the first visit to the doctor if that is possible. Of course, this is what was used most often when people visited their doctor who was also an astrologer. This is what Simon Foreman did. Richard Saunders was a huge fan of Simon Foreman and praised him for staying in London to administer healing to the sick at the height of the plague when most doctors left town.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:20 pm    Post subject: Hi, Sue! Reply with quote

Hi, Sue!

Thank you for your remarks!

I agree that if this is a true decumbiture chart (I think I would also prefer the time the patient first talks to a doctor), it looks like a pretty serious time for the patient.

Would you use the time the patient sees the doctor (has not happened yet), or the time the patient first asks a doctor a question about the illness? She says she corresponded with the doctor by email and was instructed to come in for testing. Which one do you think is better; the email, or the doctor's appointment?

I think Saunders takes it that it is good for the significators of the illness to be weak; in other words, Mars in a weak position is a good thing, not a bad thing. Mars in dignity would indicate a powerful illness. I will try to track that down and give you a citation if I find it. Perhaps I am thinking of Lilly, who also had an interest in medicine and eventually became a doctor himself. But my impression is that both of them took this approach.

If the condition has to do with excesses, I'm not sure how. I will have to quiz the querent. It does have to do with swelling, I know.

Yes, Saunders uses both applying and separating aspects to the Lord of the Ascendant, Moon, or degree of the Ascendant, to determine whether the chart shows life or death. For the Lord of the ascendant and the Moon, he uses conjunctions, squares and oppositions. He uses only conjunctions to the degree of the ascendant as signs of mortality, disregarding squares and oppositions. For the purposes of determining mortality, he makes no distinction between those that apply and those that separate. If applying, the mortal blow is about to strike; if separating, it already has. Either way, the effect is mortal.

Also, we need to remember that Saunders requires three distinct mortal conditions to call a chart fatal. So if two are separating and one is applying, we would use the applying condition for timing purposes. And of course, the Moon is always the greatest factor. If the next aspect to the Moon shows the assistance of a benefic, as in this chart, Saunders says the patient will survive despite the mortal conditions the chart describes. It will just be a difficult struggle.

I also agree that the Moon (course of the illness) and the Lord of the sixth (the illness itself) represent two different things. I will get back to the body parts in another post. Saunders gleans so much detail from the chart, it is dizzying. He has a technique that does an entire scan of the body from head to toe, showing which humours are unbalanced, explaining what needs to be done to adjust them, and demonstrating in which part of the body the imbalance originates (distinct from the part of the body the imbalance affects). I'm going to look at the liver (always mandatory), heart, kidneys, and lower legs to see what is going on with the patient using that technique.

Sauders uses both 1) the planet the Moon last aspected and 2a) the Lord of the sixth if the Moon is waning, or alternately, 2b) the Lord of the twelfth if the Moon is waxing, to find the cause of the illness.

In my next post, I will look at the traditional houses of decumbiture (first, fourth, sixth, seventh, and tenth) and use Saunders' techniques to examine the chart.

Warmest regards,

Pam
_________________
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:40 am    Post subject: Saunders on the Houses of the Decumbiture Reply with quote

I have to admit, this is one place where Saunders is more confusing than most. I think this may be one reason his techniques are not more widely used. He compares several systems for the houses, then uses one evidently not popular even in his day.

So I am sticking with the more familiar uses of the houses, and will apply those instructions to this chart. Saunders actually urges his readers to do this, so his reasons for confusing us with these other systems remain simply, well, confusing! I suppose he found such value in the older systems which he promotes that he was reluctant to move entirely to the "modern" system of houses of decumbiture which we use today.

The Ascendant--The Querent

Mercury, Lord of the first, is combust the Sun, peregrine, and closely opposed by Saturn, Lord of the eighth. Mercury is posited in the ninth house, which Saunders says means that the patient has been attempting to treat herself. The querent's story bears this out.

However, as we will see, Mercury is in better dignity than Mars, the illness.

Sixth House--The Illness

Saunders says that the sixth house and his Lord represent the humours responsible for the disease. In this case, Mars in Taurus is the culprit.

Saunders says of Mars in Taurus:

Mars in the last 12 detrees of Taurus is cold in the beginning of the first degree, and dry in the beginning of the second, ingendering Diseases of dry, thick and tough melancoly and red Choler, and Melancholy predominates, and causes Diseases hot and dry in the neck and throat; as Warts, Wens, stiffness of the Sinews, Cramps, oppilations of the Spleen and Liver, and Diseases that do breed Wind, and do pine and consume the flesh away, by reason of many oppillations and stoppings of the Body, the Stone in the Reins and Gravel, and provocation of vomiting, but ineffectual. . ."

I hope to discuss the humours at more length in another post, so I will expand on that description later. See more on ineffectual vomiting in the discussion of the Fourth House.

The cusp of the sixth is in a fixed sign, so we do not expect the disease to leave the patient rapidly.

Mercury is not in very good dignity, but he is still six points ahead of Mars, Lord of the sixth, in essential and accidental dignites. This is a good sign that the querent will overcome the illness.

Seventh House--The Physician

The Lord of the seventh is Jupiter. Mars, signifer of the illness, is separating from an opposition to Jupiter. Since the Lord of the Ascendant, Mercury, signifier of the patient, is applying to a square with Jupiter, signifier of the physician, I would urge the patient to begin looking for a new doctor. The one she has now is not going to help her because her (Mercury's) reception of the doctor (Jupiter) is not good, and because the doctor (Jupiter) has given up on the illness (separating opposition to Mars).

The question remains, which doctor needs to be replaced? She has more than one. I would suggest finding out which system is most affected by the illness: that is the doctor who she needs to consider replacing. Or, we could ask the querent. She probably knows which doctor has given up on her illness.


Tenth House--The Treatment

The degree on the cusp of the tenth (like the fourth, naturally) is 0; it is my understanding that this means that the rulership of this cusp vascillates between Saturn, ruler of Aquarius, and Jupiter, ruler of Pisces. We see that the patient has been "fed up" with taking medicines for her condition; Mars, the illness, is separating from Jupiter, Lord of the tenth, signifer of medicines. She is again approaching a square to Jupiter, medicines. She may alternately attempt a restriction (Saturn) of her diet or environment to attempt to control her illness.

Inconsistency in following treatment may be detrimental; however, if the medicines are not helping and only hurting (Mercury approaching a square to Jupiter with no significant reception), we cannot blame the patient for abandoning them.

Fourth House--The End of the Matter

The Fourth House is ruled by Mercury, the Lord of the Ascendant. Mercury is not in very good dignity, but he is actually six points ahead of the signifier of the illness, Mars, Lord of the sixth, in essential and accidental dignites. I see this as a good sign for the patient's outcome. She may not end up in great shape, but she will overcome this illness.

Alternately, we may consider the Sun sometime ruler of the fourth, as the cusp stands at 0 Virgo, indicating vascillation between Virgo and Leo. This is a worse outcome, as the Sun is very debilitated just now; I find him a little worse than off than Mars. The best news for this outcome is that the 0 cusp, although unstable, tends to gravitate to the forward point of the Zodiac (Virgo) over time.

Saunders notes that Virgo on the cusp of the fourth and Moon in Capricorn makes the patient inclined to vomit. I asked the querent, who says she has not had any complaints along these lines apart from occaisional fleeting nausea. But we see that 0 degrees Virgo is on the cusp, so perhaps she has been spared the worst of this symptom. Mars in Taurus also shows an inclination to vomit, but an ineffective one.

Vomiting is important to the outcome of the illness when the treatment consists of herbs and foods. On the other hand, there are some purges used by Saunders to treat illness which deliberately induce vomiting to cure the patient.

The next post will be on the subject of the state of the humours indicated on this decumbiture chart.
_________________
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pam,

Just a couple of things. I do not see that Mercury is ahead of Mars by six points. I may be missing something but I see them as relatively even with a couple of points between them. Even so, I do not place too much store on a points system. The fact is Mercury is combust and peregrine and therefore has little strength. Even if the illness itself shows little strength it will not take much to leave the querent quite debilitated and unable to fight off even a minor condition.

If the cusp of the 4th house is 0deg Virgo I would consider Mercury as the ruler and not vascillating between the Sun and Mercury. I would not consider the Sun as sometimes ruler of the 4th at all. The same goes for the ruler of the 10th house. It is in Pisces and therefore the ruler is Jupiter. There is no vascillation between rulerships.

The chart that I drew up in Solar Fire has an ascendant of 25deg Gemini. This gives 2deg for the 4th and 10th house cusps. I just checked this by drawing the chart in Astrodienst and it gives the same cusps as Solar Fire. I'm not sure why you get different cusps. I am using Regiomontanus charts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



The above is drawn using Regio cusps. The problem with the data seems to be that Pam listed it as 2:30pm when giving the full data, but earlier she mentioned that the question was asked at 2:20 pm - which is what this chart shows. Presumably this is as it should be.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, thanks. Got it now. Sorry, I missed the bit where 2:20pm was mentioned and just used 2:30pm. Not a lot of difference but the 0deg cusps make more sense now.

Pam, I am curious as to where you got your reference for taking a 0deg cusp as vascillating between two rulers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:12 pm    Post subject: Chart Correction Reply with quote

Hi, Deb and Sue!

Thank you for clarifying that slip-up. Deb, you are correct; the 2:20 time is the one to follow.

Sue, I guess our differing assessments of the strengths of the planets have to do with the systems we are following. Although combustion is a debility, according to Lilly's point system, being in the twelfth house in detriment is worse. So Mercury may be weak, but Mars is still weaker.

Mercury is peregrine and combust, (both bad) and in the ninth house, which is a slight dignity, direct, and occidental (good for Mercury).

Mars is peregrine and in detriment, in the twelfth house, and occidental (all bad), but direct and free from combustion (both good).

What it boils down to is: according to Lilly, Mercury is stronger.

Sue, I will look for a citation on that interpretation of 0 degrees. I came across it after I started using traditional techniques (post certification by Zoller), but I don't think it came through him. I'll have to look around. The rationale, as I recall, is that the ancients did not count 0 Virgo as actually being in Virgo; it was considered to be more the 30 degree of Leo. But now I am curious, too, so I will try to find out more.

Warmly,

Pam
_________________
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:48 pm    Post subject: Humoral Balance of the Liver Reply with quote

If you have questions about the following technique, you may wish to read the entry listed as "Saunders on Finding the Humoral Balance of the Liver".

To apply this technique to the decumbiture chart under discussion, we look to the cusp of the fifth house, which signifies the liver. The chart shows three degrees Libra. I use the handy Table of the Essential Dignites Saunders shows on AJP Vol.1 p. 6; this is the same Table of Essential Dignites Lilly uses, if you have it handy.

This is helpful because there are some areas of the Zodiac in which the planets Saturn, Jupiter, Venus and Moon have very few dignites (Virgo or Scorpio, for example). So I go through all five of the essential dignities for every degree and sign, even though we tend to think we know which planet is most dignifed just based on sign and exaltation. If you have not used this table before, you will find that sometimes there are surprises. For example:

3 Libra

Venus--rulership=5
Saturn--exaltation=4
Saturn--Triplicity=3
Saturn--Terms=2
Moon--Face=1

Clearly, Saturn has the most dignities on the cusp of the fifth house. This means we must examine Saturn to determine the humoral condition of the liver.

The retentive virtue, represented by Saturnat 7 Leo, is weak, having only the dignity of face (1) and falling into his detriment. He is retrograde, which may indicate a returning condition, and accidentally, he is posited in a cadent house; therefore his influence is not as strong as if he were angular or even succeedant.

Here is Saunders on Saturn in Leo, AJP vol.1. p. 119:

". . . Saturn in the next 18 degrees of Leo [seven Leo falls into this range of degrees] is hot in the second [degree, meaning level] and dry in the third, causing Diseases of thick yellow Choler, and of Melancholy; but Choler hath the dominion, witha superfluous Flegm, causing Pestilential, and hot burning Fevers, and so dry that the Speech is hindered, stopping of the Liver and Stomach, forcing to vomit with pains, and if the Moon be in Gemini, and apply to Mars in Sagittarius, Saturn in the 6th causeth strangury, and the Fever Hecktick. . ."

So far the balance looks like this: in the liver, an imbalance of too much choler with some melancholy. It is possible that the listed symptoms, along with the tendency to vomit, are lessened by Saturn's weak position on the chart.

Saturn's position on the chart just inside the cusp of the third house respresents the "throat next the stomach", according to the chart on p. 97 of AJP vol.1. I will be posting more information about this chart, which allows us to examine the condition of any part of the body, presently.

This information suggests several questions we can ask the querent to help establish her symptoms and present condition.

For example, we may ask the querent if she has any burning sensation in the throat next the stomach (indicated by Saturn in Leo inside the cusp of the third).

We already know from a previous conversation that she has felt nauseated, but has not vomited.

We might ask if she has been running a fever.

These questions will help show how strongly the effects of Saturn in Leo are being felt and might even suggest some avenues for her to explore with her doctor.

The significator of the illness, Mars in Taurus, shows .an overall predominance of Choler and Melancholy; the condition of the liver demonstrated by Saturn in Leo likewise demonstrates an overbalance of Choler and Melancholy.

Saunders actually prescribes herbal remedies for each condition he lists, along with elections for treating the patient. It might be tempting to try the remedies which use easily accessible ingredients without following the elections, but Saunders warns us not to do so. I suppse that even indredients we consider harmless might have unpleasant effects on an ill person when administered at an unfortunate time.

I like to learn as much as I can about the condition of the querent from the chart, and leave diagnosis to the doctors and the treatment plan up to the querent and her medical professionals. When I know more about herbology, I may reconsider, but for now I am attempting to learn as much as I can through the chart itself.
_________________
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:12 am    Post subject: The Places Where Disease is Found in the Chart Reply with quote

According to Saunders, planets on cusps indicate "disease", meaning humoral imbalance, on the chart. The sixth and twelfth houses do not correspond to any locations on the body, but Sanders suggests we can look at the other cusps to see where the querent may be experiencing discomfort or pain.

Saturn is on the cusp of the third, indicating discomfort in the throat next the stomach.

Too much choler, mixed with melancholy; on this chart, Saturn rules the kness, shanks, feet, hips, haunch, secrets, and belly.

Venus is on the cusp of the eighth, pinpointing discomfort in the hips.

She is ruled by Saturn, who is causing the choler/melancholy imbalance listed above.

Sun is on the cusp of the ninth, indicating discomfort in the belly.

Sun in Aquarius is also ruled by Saturn, as indicated above.

What does all this choler/melancholy imbalance translate to? How would a person who was more accustomed to modern medical concepts relate to it?

I have to speculate to take these steps in explaining the meaning of the chart to a querent; I use the conditions I find on the chart as an opportunity to learn about the querent's current health, and to pass along what I have learned from the chart. I also use modern equivalents which describe the humours, when they seem to apply. I leave it up to doctors to diagnose any diseases the querent may have, but I do suggest some ideas about their health for the querent to discuss with their doctor.

For example, choler may correspond in this instance to ion channels (see the post on the Virtues). Ion channels permit the movement of the electrolytes, sodium and potassium, in and out of cells. Potassium, for example, permits the muscles of the body to move. Too much choler suggests that too much of this movement of electrolytes is being done, perhaps exhausting the ability of these parts of the body to move smoothly; too much melancholy suggests that cell refuse or toxins are not being correctly released from this area of the body.

Since the querent has just undergone a rigorous fast, she may want to learn what has happened to her potassium and sodium (usually replenished through the diet) in the meanwhile. This will probably appear on the blood test she has had done at the time of this decumbiture.

A doctor will tell her that attention to her diet can help correct a potassium deficiency, if she emphasizes fruit and certain vegetables. This concept is congruent with humoral medicine.

Back to the chart: Saunders is also interested in Caput Draconis and Cauda Draconis in relationship to the cusps.

The North Node is found at 6 Aries on the cusp of the eleventh house (heart).

The South Node is found at 6 Libra on the cusp of the fifth house (liver).

I will be commenting on the condition of the heart in another post.
I would like to mention that North Node may be interpreted as gain, and South as loss. The loss which the liver has experienced may reflect the querent's recent fast; a lack, or loss of material to digest.

Warmest regards,

Pam
_________________
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 10:39 pm    Post subject: Examining the Humoral Condition of the Heart Reply with quote

We are following the same rules as listed in the post, "Saunders on Finding the Humoral Balance of the Liver"; we are using the cusp of the eleventh house to find (instead of the liver) the condition of the heart.


On the cusp of the eleventh house, we find 3 Aries.
The essential dignities of 3 Aries follow:

Mars=rulership=5
Sun=exaltation=4
Sun=triplicity=3
Jupiter=terms=2
Mars=face=1

Of the four planets representing the humours (Jupiter, Saturn , Venus or Moon), Jupiter is the one which has most dignities at this point. So the condition of Jupiter shows us the humoural condition of the querent's heart.

With Jupiter in Scorpio, too much flegm is indicated. Too much blood is being carried away from the heart, and not enough being kept to nourish it properly. Flegm is like a runny nose. It does not leave the body or its part to recover its strength; it keeps troubling us with incessant leaking. The heart is not leaking blood, but rather it is shedding the contents of those muscular cells and cleansing itself to an unhealthy extreme.

Sometimes it is hard for us to envision how one part of the body can have an excess of choler while another shows too much flegm. I will turn to an example from modern medicine to show how this is possible. Here is a condition which I might ask the querent to discuss with her doctor, if her morbificant planets were angular rather than cadent, or perhaps if Mars were separating from the Lord of the Ascendant or the Moon, indicating an injury or infection:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pericardial-effusion/HQ01198

The absence of choler in the vicinity of the heart is a little troubling as well. As we know, the heart is a muscle which beats on electrical impulse; a healthy balance of fire is to be expected here.

The North Node on the cusp of the eleventh is rather ominous on this chart. The querent told me a little of her medical history (which is complex, it seems), and she has experienced cardiomyopathy, which is an enlarged heart. She says the condition has gotten better, but this is one reason she was worried about the high blood pressure she had. I would expect the North Node describing the heart to indicate that the heart muscle is enlarged.

We also need to keep in mind that Jupiter squares the Lord of the Ascendant, Mercury; so Jupiter has a part in the disease(s) reflected on the chart. With three morbificant planets, Saunders allows three different diseases present on this chart. As modern doctors sometimes seem to wish to forget, several diseases may co-exist within one patient simultaneously.

Here is Saunders on Jupiter in Scorpio:

"Jupiter in the next 18 degrees of Scorpio is cold in the second degree and moist in the 3d; ingendring cholera vitellica of Flegm, stinking and corrupt Blood, but Flegm is most in the commixtion, causing the French Pox, Fistulaes, running Sores, swelling of the Feet, the wet Gout, and such like."

Thank goodness Jupiter is cadent on this chart, as in fact, all the morbificant planets are. Mars is in the twelfth, Jupiter the sixth, and Sun is in the ninth. So the querent may have a tinge of each of these diseases (the Mars disease, the Jupiter one, and the Sun disease), but is not likely to suffer a full-blown experience of any, as she would were these planets angular.


Warmest regards,

Pam
_________________
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 4:37 am    Post subject: Examining the Humoral Condition of the Kidneys Reply with quote

Using the same techniques as for the liver and heart above, we examine the tenth house for the kidneys.

In his chart of the parts of the body, AJP vol.1 p. 97, Saunders uses a distinction between "reins" and "Kidneys". In modern medicine, "renal" and "pertaining to the kidneys" are synonymous. The Latin word for kidneys is seen in words containing the prefix reno-, ren-, or reni-. So why does Saunders differentiate between "reins" and "kidneys?" He inserts the "back" between the place that describes the reins and the one that describes the kidneys in the tenth house. The best hypothesis to explain the distinction I have found so far is that "reins" refers to the ureters, and "kidneys" to the same organs we call the kidneys.

The "reins" in a man were thought to guide his lust, or conscience; thus, his "reins" direct him.

Sue or Deb, if you can enlighten us on this distinction further, I would certainly be grateful.

I will use the 28th degree of the tenth house for the kidneys, as Saunders describes. The final five degrees of the tenth house, we must bear in mind, Saunders reads as being in the eleventh house.

In the latest degrees of Pisces, here are the essential dignities:

Jupiter--rulership=5
Venus--exaltation=4
Mars--triplicity=3
Mars--terms=2
Mars--face=1

Of the planets signifying the virtues (Juipter, Saturn, Venus and Moon), Jupiter is the strongest here. We look for the condition of Jupiter on the chart to tell us about the humoral condition of the kidneys.

Jupiter is found at 16 Scorpio. Like the heart, the balance of the kidneys is disrupted by too much water. The virtue of digestion is weakened.

How can "wet" kidneys disrupt the humoral balance in this way?

The kidneys are the filters of the blood; too much water here can cause the flushing of important minerals, proteins, or other matter which we need to enrich the blood and properly maintain the virtues of digestion, attraction and retention. For example, kidneys in which the virtue of digestion is weakened may not be producing hormones such as erythropoietin needed to regulate the production of red blood cells, thereby causing anemia. As we know, the body needs red blood cells to carry oxygen throughout the body. Humorally, this condition corresponds to a lack of air or weakened digestion.

Here is a site on kidney disease from a modern medical perspective:

http://www.healthsquare.com/fgpd/fg4ch18.htm

If we read about modern medicine carefully, we can begin to trace the role of the kidneys in ridding the body of toxins (flegm, water, Moon, or the expulsive virtue); in maintaining a balance of electrolytes (choler, fire, Venus, or the attractive virtue); in retaining valuable blood constituents such as protein (melancholy, earth, Saturn, or the retentive virtue); or in regulating the hormone leading to the production of red blood cells (sanguine, air, Jupiter, or the digestive virtue). Gradually, we may enhance our understanding of humoral medicine as we come to see how the imbalance of one part of the body can affect the well-being of the whole.

Warmest regards,

Pam

_________________
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
_________________
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pam,

I have reins defined as the kindeys or loins, but I think your definition is better and it makes a lot of sense. It is possible that some authors used it in a more general sense though.

Incidentally, it's probably worth making a reference here to Kim Farnell's glossary of archaic terms - a quick and useful guide to some of the obscure words that crop up in astrology texts of this period.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/glossarytt.html

Regards
Deb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 12:29 pm    Post subject: Thanks, Deb! Reply with quote

Hi, Deb

Thanks for adding your comments! I recently ran across another mention by Saunders; I seem to recall the expression was "the reins of the back", again distinct from the kidneys, which seems to support the idea of the reins corresponding with the ureters--at least in Saunders' terminology. I will post the citation once I locate it again.

I agree that it seems most authors grouped both body parts under the same name.

Thank you for citing the glossary Kim Farnell provides! This looks most useful.

The next thing I would like to look at on the chart is the immediate future; the humour which will next be increasing. Here is one more advantage Saunders' medicine has over modern medicine! Nowadays, we can get sample of blood which can be studied exhaustively, but doctors assure us that even so it can only show a momentary "snapshot" of what is going on with blood constituents, hormones, etc. Those hormone levels zing up and down: some on cycles, some answering to other hormones triggered by a number of random factors like emotional reactions, the amount of sleep we've had, what we just ate, etc. Saunders does modern medicine one better by showing how we can find out which humour will increase next, the better to appropriately treat the patient.

I hope to post on this topic later today.

Warmest regards,

Pam
_________________
"Id rather learn from one bird how to sing than teach ten thousand stars how not to dance"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated