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People losing heads over cartoons
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:34 pm    Post subject: People losing heads over cartoons Reply with quote

The seeds of the current Ďcartoonsí tensions go back to Sept 2005 when they were first published in a Danish newspaper. What I find interesting is the way that all this violent and emotive reaction is exploding so dramatically now, as Mars moves back to the conjunction of Algol.

The day after the cartoons were originally published Mars stationed before turning retrograde at 23 Taurus (1st October 2005).
The recent key date was 1st February 2006, when papers in France, Germany, Italy and Spain reprinted the cartoons and the tensions escalated dramatically. Mars had returned to 22 Taurus, coming into conjunction with Algol; the degree where it previously stationed and the degree of the grand conjunction of 2000 (22.42 Taurus: 28 May 2000 Ė see the post on that matter at http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1214 )


Algol relates to Ďheads being lostí and this is happening figuratively, literally, and symbolically; with one of the offending cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammedís head as a bomb (could you get a more dynamic representation of Mars conjunct Algol?) and angry protestors demanding that those who insult Islam should be beheaded. The effects of the Mars- Jupiter opposition are still lingering, with Jupiter itself squaring a combust Mercury conjunct Neptune: the tensions supposedly bringing to a head the political sensitivities of Ďfreedomí of Ďspeechí.

For a while I have also been interesting in observing the issues relating to Saturn being Ďin the degree of the nodesí. We have had discussions on the site as to whether the true node or the mean node is most effective, and I have been swayed by the arguments favouring the mean node. Currently Saturn is exact in its retrograde contact to the mean nodes and I canít help feeling that this is an important consideration as to why the world is experiencing a lot of worrying tensions about politics, environmental issues and accidental disasters right now. (Consider also that in the chart I just published for the ferry disaster, the Moon was separating from a conjunction with the NN and trine of Saturn, translating that light to the Sun, ruler of the ascendant.)

Letís hope that Mars is really bringing these issues to a head, and not setting seeds of further discontent in this issue.

Deb
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yuzuru



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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:08 am    Post subject: Antiscia Reply with quote

Hello, Deb.
I don`t think the "nodes degrees" have any real influence here, as there are sufficient triggers all around...
One that you forget is that mars was not only transiting the great conjunction of 2000, and the point of his preview station, but he was always conjunct saturn by antiscia in february 1.

Yuzuru
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yes Ö I failed to notice that. Of course the antiscia connection between Mars and Saturn was very close when the cartoons were first published in Denmark on September 30th last year, but on 1st February they were exact.

Thanks for pointing that out!
Deb
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MarkF



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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb,

Iím usually pretty skeptical of the way that transits are used without regard to any sort of base chart, be it a natal, solar ingress or whatever. But since I respect your knowledge so much, Iím trying to follow what youíre saying here.

You seem to be using the time of the conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter as the base chart here, and then seeing when other planets have significant and unusual contacts with the sensitive point where their conjunction occurred, in this case at 22į 43í Taurus. Is that right?

I have a few questions as to what exactly is the meaning of the great conjunction then, other than just a general point to watch out for. Saturn and Jupiter seem to be very much of opposite natures, cold and dry versus warm and moist, the great malefic versus the great benefic. So does their conjunction imply some sort of great explosion, the kind that we see when we get two different weather systems coming together? Here in America our tornado season is in the spring when the left over cold air from winter collides with the new warn air of spring. Is that the basic idea here? How do you understand the conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter?

I see that you mention Algol quite a bit but Algol is at 26į 10 Taurus and the conjunction was at 22į 43í Taurus. Isnít 3 Ĺį a bit of a stretch for a fixed star? I can see that if we add Algol to the mix, the conjunction looks a lot worse.

Would we expect any transit to 22į 43í Taurus to make an impact?

And then once we isolate a transit, like this Mars one, how do we figure out where on earth its effects will be felt and how they will be felt?

Also what are some good traditional books on such things?
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granny_skot



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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark,

the Jupiter Saturn conjs, are blamed for many things, the presidential assasinations (because they coincide with the Year 0 elections) the Black Plague(see a distant Mirror, by Barbara Tuchman), and numerous other MUNDANE phenomena. (personal as well, but this star is a strong mundane star)

Odd and ends...
From ann wrights page on fixed stars

Planetary nature of Algol : Sat-Jup
Influence of the constellation: It gives an intelligent, strong, bold and adventurous nature, but a tendency to lying. By the Kabalists it is associated with the Hebrew letter Lamed and the 12th Tarot Trump, The Hanged Man. (Robson).

The constellation is indicative of events effecting large numbers of people, especially those events caused by major meteorological phenomena. When prominent in a natal chart it is said to denote adventurous individuals, but also those who are less than honest in their dealings with others. (Noonan).

General influence of the star: It causes misfortune, violence, decapitation, hanging, electrocution and mob violence, and gives a dogged and violent nature that causes death to the native or others. It is the most evil star in the heavens. (Robson).

Poor teeth. Brutality and violence. Arabic commanders in chief, in times of conquest, made it a point that no important battles were begun when the light of Algol was weak (Algol is an eclipsing binary - every 68 hours and 49 minutes the demon Ďblinksí for roughly 8 hours as the dimmer star of the pair passes between the brighter and the earth). (Ebertin).

If culminating: Murder, sudden death, beheading, prone to murder and mischief. If at the same time in conjunction with Sun, Moon or Jupiter, gives victory over others in war. (Robson).

With the Hyleg and angular, decapitation or a murderer who meets with a violent death. (Robson).

With Fortuna or its dispositor, poverty. (Robson).

With Mars or Saturn: and the Moon at the same time with Sadalmelik (2 Pisces), hanging or decapitation by royal command; if the Moon is with Denebola (20 Virgo), death by judicial sentence; and, if the Moon is with Alfard (26 Leo) death by water or poison. (Robson).

I dont have my Brady with me or I'd add that info, But the Grand Conj is definitely blamed for a lot that's gone on in the last 6 years. Okay the last few thousand years. Smile

Granny
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MarkF



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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granny,

Well I need it to be more specific than that in order to follow this and to make a judgment. What I see is that people blame some event on a particular transit. Life canít be that simple. I am all for mundane astrology but I think we have to realize where we are in the study of it, and that is in a similar position to where we were with horary twenty-five year ago. Twenty-five years ago most traditional works were unavailable and even worse, people werenít practicing it so no one was as good at it as they are now. The first people to bring back traditional works also were still very much grounded in modern astrology. Look at Olivia Barclayís book. Though groundbreaking it still has a lot of modern concepts, notably her use of the outer planets for rulerships. Zollerís old book on the Arabic parts is the same way. I think we are the same way with mundane astrology today; weíre very much in the beginning of restoring our knowledge and we still have a lot of baggage from modern astrology in our thinking. I am perfectly comfortable to start from scratch with this. The first assumption Iíd like to get rid of is the one that just looks at transits in general and in retrospect and blames some event on that.

I see that there was a conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter on February 18, 1961, at 25į 11í Capricorn. Looking back itís easy to say, yeah, thatís why President Kennedy was killed. But I donítí see in that conjunction a connection to the date of November 22, 1963 in Dallas. Iím looking at the chart for that date and I donít see any planets even close to 25į 11í Capricorn, not by bodily conjunction, nor by aspect. I wonder why and how the connection can be made with sound and explainable traditional techniques to connect this conjunction with the assassination. I can look back at the early 1960ís and blame my Aunt Sophieís lumbago on the conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter, but that statement doesnít connect it to that event any more than it does to the assassination. And I donít understand why this conjunction can produce an assassination in America and not elsewhere. The early 1960ís seem to be a relatively peaceful time. Sure there were crises like the Cuban missile crisis but nothing came of that. Overall, considering the Cold War and all its tensions, this was a pretty quiet time. Iím looking at the relation of Jupiter to Saturn just before the Korean War, which started on June 25, 1950. Jupiter is 7į away from being opposite Saturn, but it doesnít reach perfection before turning retrograde. Their previous aspect was a trine on December 13, 1948. There has to be more to mundane astrology than to blame everything on these conjunctions. Sure there is this cycle of American presidents either dying in office or being assassinated every 20 years. (Except of course President Reagan Ė luck of the Irish?) But what about the other 5,000 years of human history? OK maybe the Black Death did start around the time of a grand conjunction, but the Black Death doesnít happen every twenty years. The world has so many problems and pains that itís possible to connect almost any event to a grand conjunction. It sure is easy to go back and blame everything on a grand conjunction, but if we do that itís the same as me blaming Aunt Sophieís lumbago on it.

Iím not disavowing mundane astrology at all. What I am saying is that we have to scrap pretty much everything that we think we know about it. Assume itís just as bollixed up as modern astrology is, and just about as easy to pole holes through.

This is why I was so interested in Debís approach. At least she tied in transits of Mars to the conjunction sensitive point. But that only goes so far. I would have thought that such a really nasty conjunction with Algol involved would have produced something worse than some mass street protests. I am sure at this point there are those out there who are asking, ďBut what about the 9-11, the Iraq War, the tsunami?Ē Sure a lot of bad things have happened since then, bad things happen all the time. Look at the 1980ís. We had Chernobyl, an earthquake in Mexico City and another one in Armenia.

What we need are clearer explanations, using charts that tie celestial events to specific times and places, not just blaming.

And even more, we need predictions, because all the hindsight explanations in the world donít amount to one good prediction.
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granny_skot



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Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Tsunami had very clear transits to the GC, (saturn and jupiter reached their square, saturn approaching another ugly angle, opposition to Neptune) and if you read Toms discussion of 9/11 I believe he brought up some further relations to it as well.(though asside from saturn opposition Pluto, I mean really talk about the uglies!) as for the others I'd have to look them up.

(Cernobyl - Venus conj Algol opp Moon, Sun opp Pluto, interestingly NN had just slipped into Aries, Again Jupiter and Saturn Square. )

for the Assasination of Kennedy you have SAturn square Neptune, Saturn and Jupiter still traveling more or less together, though earlier in the month for the Vietnamese Presidential assassination you get a better square the sun and neptune conj square saturn. Saturn opposition the NN, ergo conj the south node.

I've heard arguement that the Korean war is merely the continuation of WWII, and that war (with North Korea) is merely enjoying a cease fire, it hasn't actually ended. (I'm adding stuff as I look it up)

Granny


Last edited by granny_skot on Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sue



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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The first people to bring back traditional works also were still very much grounded in modern astrology. Look at Olivia Barclayís book. Though groundbreaking it still has a lot of modern concepts, notably her use of the outer planets for rulerships.


Where has Olivia Barclay given rulerships to the outer planets? Since she taught and practised by Lilly's methods she did not give rulerships to the outer planets.

Mark, I think you are misrepresenting traditional astrology here. No traditional astrologer I know ever attributes a single transit to an event. There has been some very good work done on traditional mundane astrology and I don't see the problems that you are suggesting. This is an issue you keep raising but I do not see a widespread use of what you are suggesting from traditional astrologers. Don't confuse the work of people who are not well versed in the proper techniques of traditional astrology from those who are. Those who are well versed in traditional techniques do not have the issues to which you are referring.

Quote:
I think we are the same way with mundane astrology today; weíre very much in the beginning of restoring our knowledge and we still have a lot of baggage from modern astrology in our thinking.


I have spent a lot of time with mundane astrology. I find it far more interesting than natal astrology and maybe even moreso than horary astrology. There are some very good works, both traditional and modern, on mundane astrology, none of them with the baggage of modern astrology.

Quote:
What I am saying is that we have to scrap pretty much everything that we think we know about it. Assume itís just as bollixed up as modern astrology is, and just about as easy to pole holes through.


I suggest you spend some time reading some proper work then instead of assuming that it is all rubbish. I have no idea where you are doing most of your reading but it seems that you are not reading the right things. Perhaps look back at some of the forum posts on specific events that delve far deeper into the issue than a single transit or two.
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MarkF



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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sue,

I canít find my copy of Olivia Barclayís book right now. Iím making a new bookshelf and all my books are scattered throughout the house. I do seem to remember her using Uranus to collect light in her example about the guy who wanted to go on vacation. I could have sworn she used the outer planets as co-rulers, but even if she didnít she certainly used them more than others do now. And Zoller himself talks about his book about the Parts as being from an earlier time when he was still influenced by modern ideas.

Maybe Iím wrong about the state of traditional mundane work; I know Iíd sure love to see some of it in print. I know I asked above here for some books to read. Can you recommend any now? I know that Ben Dykes told me that there are several, either reprints of old books or new ones.

And about this idea that no one has claimed that a single transit affects the whole world, in fact it is you that has been the one whoís told me this on different posts. You told me that a few times already and Iíve disagreed with it. Ben Dykes also agrees on this forum that transits alone and apart from an other base chart are not very useful.

I do think itís important to confront the more easily refuted ideas that prop up here before they spread further. If thatís preaching to the choir for someone with more experience, so be it. I hear all the time really trivial things about how Mercury retrograde causes someone to loose their keys.

And if traditional mundane work is in as good a state as you say it is, where are the predictions?

**********************************************************************************
Granny,

Iím looking at the charts of the grand conjunction and the tsunami, May 28, 2000 and December 26, 2004 respectively. On the day of the tsunami I see that Saturn has just moved past a sextile with the grand conjunction, not a square. In the tsunami chart Saturn and Jupiter are over eight degrees away from an applying square, which is pretty far apart. Neptune doesnít seem to be involved here by even the widest of orbs, except that itís trine to Jupiter in the tsunami chart, three degrees from perfection. In the grand conjunction chart Uranus is two degrees from being square to the grand conjunction but the transits from the tsunami chart have it in an applying trine from Jupiter.

Even if we could turn this into an earthquake, doesnít it seem like we can find more likely dates, say when Saturn does transit a square to the grand conjunction? This wide applying square between Jupiter and Saturn in the tsunami chart doesnít even perfect as Jupiter turns retrograde. Saturn does make a sextile to the grand conjunction on January 28, 2005, but a sextile doesnít sound like an earthquake to me. Jupiter and Saturn did reach their square on June 22, 2006, and even worse, Mars was only two degrees past being conjunct with Saturn. Given that this square that was eight degrees from perfection, and never really came about around the time of the tsunami was associated with a disaster that killed something like 150,000 people, wouldnít we expect to see something worse when that square actually perfects, and more so because Mars is conjunct Saturn? I canít think of any event that has happened this year that would seem to be predicted by a transit of this magnitude.

The tsunami chart does not seem to have much of a bad connection to the grand conjunction, and on the other side when we have dates for worse connections to the grand conjunction we donít see truly earth shattering events. The real news from this year is that Iraq is in a downward spiral, and Israel and Hezbollah had brief but violent clash. Thousands have died in both of these, but not hundreds of thousands as in the tsunami.

Compare the chart for October 13, 2006 with the grand conjunction chart. Saturn has just transited to make a square to the grand conjunction, and transiting Jupiter just opposed it. And of course that means that Saturn and Jupiter were both square each other in the transit chart. That seems to be far, far worse of a transit to the grand conjunction, but nothing really bad has happened to compare with the tsunami.

If I based mundane predictions just on transits to a grand conjunction, both June 22, 2006 and October 13, 2006 would be much more ominous dates than December 26, 2004. So something is wrong with the technique of just using transits to grand conjunctions. Can anyone tell me why nothing apocalyptic like the tsunami didnít happen in June or October of this year?

I really would like to see mundane work, but I think itís very clear that weíre barking up the wrong tree.
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Sue



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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I do seem to remember her using Uranus to collect light in her example about the guy who wanted to go on vacation. I could have sworn she used the outer planets as co-rulers, but even if she didnít she certainly used them more than others do now.


Using a planet to collect light is not giving it a rulership. And I disagree that she used the outer planets more than others do now. She did not give them rulerships and she used them in a way that horary astrologers do now - never as the basis for a judgement but rather to provide further information when they are prominently placed in the chart.

Quote:
And about this idea that no one has claimed that a single transit affects the whole world, in fact it is you that has been the one whoís told me this on different posts.


I think you are misrepresenting me here. I haven't said that a single transit affects the whole world but that a cycle will affect the world generally. A Jupiter/Saturn conjunction is a cycle. A Saturn/Pluto opposition is a cycle. Most traditional astrologers will not ignore the cycles of the outer planets. I doubt that anyone would argue that the events of 9/11 borne from a Saturn/Pluto cycle did not affect the whole world in some way. It has changed Australia enormously. While there are other factors involved, it is possible to see this cycle as playing a huge role in this event. The whole world is operating under the same cycles. The different response to these cycles is due to various factors operating at the time. If you trace history you will see that similar elements continue to operate under these cycles. A Jupiter/Saturn cycle of 1643 might appear to be quite different from a Jupiter/Saturn cycle of 1960 but a closer look will reveal similar energies operating. And sometimes it is not immediately apparent. It has only recently been revealed how extremely serious the Cuban Missile crisis really was.

As for transits, they operate all over the world at the same time. It is simplistic to suggest that since the same transits happen everywhere and that not everywhere is affected that transits are irrelevant. These transits are triggers that will lead to events being played out in various parts of the world due to other factors including the chart of the nation involved. Not all places will be affected in the same way at the same time but the energy will still operate around the world.

Quote:
And if traditional mundane work is in as good a state as you say it is, where are the predictions?


You keep talking about predictions. There is more to astrology than predictions. In fact, I would say that prediction is not the most important issue in astrology. There were predictions about 9/11 but it did not stop it from happening. What is important is to gain some understanding of why it happened and what we can learn from it. And just because we can't always see it in the chart does not mean it isn't there. As Denis Elwell said, sometimes we are trying to find a mundane answer to a cosmic question. We have to change our view of the chart from one of expectation of what to find to one of interpreting what is really there. Here is a quote from one of his articles on this site.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/diana.html

Quote:
It seems obvious to me that our charts must portray a cosmic reality, a uniquely cosmic viewpoint. The central misunderstanding in humanity's long conversation with the heavens is that human answers have been expected to human questions. Therefore when human questioning is met with a cosmic answer, it may not be recognised as evenly remotely relevant. Indeed we may have to strain our grey matter to grasp the cosmic message, which is likely to be taking account of facts that are not yet on our mental horizon.


I do not claim to have all the answers as to how best approach mundane astrology but I have every faith that mundane astrology is just as valid and just as revealing as any other form of astrology, including horary.
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granny_skot



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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking about what you said overnight and had a thought. I once had a woman say to me her life was a mess right now so mercury must be retrograde. I looked at her funny and said, no mercury was not retrograde at the moment why did she think that was the root of all her problems? (she had some ugly Pluto transits as it turned out, but that is another story)

I think this is more what you are refering to?

Also, i did not say Saturn was Square the GC, I said SAturn and Jupiter had reached their Square (to each other) I was refering to the Transit of those two planets to themselved. The GC, to the GC is a cycle and the planets have issues with each other through out the cycle. as in the issue is with the life cycle of the GC, not the angle, but I could be mistaken. Granny
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MarkF



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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Granny,

Keep on typing away. It keeps the hands warm on a cold day and drives off arthritis.

Yes, what you said about Mercury retrograde is just the kind of comments that set me off. What Iím trying to do here is to say that we need more work on mundane astrology, thatís all.

Yes I understood what you mean about the tsunami chart. Youíre saying that Saturn is square to Jupiter on the day of the tsunami (December 26, 2004) , and it is but just barely at a distance of about 8 degrees. This is the square that in fact does not perfect because Jupiter turns retrograde. So if this square, which is very wide at best and doesnít even perfect is the signal for a tsunami, why didnít a worse disaster happen when the square of Jupiter to Saturn happened not once but twice this past year? What I meant about the sextile of Saturn is that Saturn made a sextile by transit on the day of the tsunami to the degree where Saturn and Jupiter were at the time of the great conjunction.

Iím still looking for an answer as to why the chart for December 26, 2004 signals a tsunami, while the charts for June 22, 2006 and October 25, 2006 donít seem have signaled much. If you have Solar Fire, compare each of these charts to the grand conjunction chart using the BiWheel. In the June 22 chart, Saturn and Jupiter really are square each other, and Saturn is conjunct Mars. The October 25 chart is even worse, as Jupiter and Saturn are again exactly square, but this time they are exactly opposite and square to the degree of the grand conjunction. It looks really bad. OK, I can make a prediction that something bad will happen somewhere in the world, and then once it happens claim success. That is what I see a lot of, except itís done in retrospect not with foresight.

My opinion on mundane is that I know that I donít know much about it, and Iím sure that unless they can clearly answer the above question, that others donít either.

*************************************************************************************

Sue,

I donít think I have fundamental differences with you on this matter.

I do think that we should always tie in transits or cycles to existing chart, be they natal, solar ingresses, or even to grand conjunction charts. I am sure that there are many other specific and valid techniques that are still out there in unread or un-translated old books.

Itís easy but not very enlightening to talk in a general way about planetary cycles. I am sure these are a part of mundane work, but there seems to be a big piece of the puzzle missing, a lot of technique that is left undiscovered, just as most traditional technique was unknown. It will take time to restore it. Look at the recent topic about the void of course Moon. That made us all look back at our sources and re-imagine our principles. The same thing is happening in mundane, but from I can see, the work is years behind where we are with horary. So weíre able to see that a conjunction or Saturn and Jupiter is bad, and the same for an opposition between Saturn and Pluto maybe even too. But thatís a pretty crude understanding of things. And to say that bad things have or will happen because of that isnít really saying much. You said that how Australia has changed enormously. Yes, but countries are changing all the time, sometimes at a faster pace, sometimes at a slower pace. And what to one person seems like progress seems like degeneration to another. These terms are so subjective.

What I think that a properly functioning mundane technique would give us are specific examples of what is changing, who will be affected and where the affects will be felt most strongly.

The real danger is to seize upon some headline and try to look through the sky for some explanation, because you always can find something. With a weak technique you can explain away anything. Like I said, I can blame that Saturn and Jupiter grand conjunction in 1961 for President Kennedyís assassination as well as for my Aunt Sophieís lumbago. (I donít even know what that is.) This is why prediction is so important. Prediction tests our understanding and technique like nothing else can.

Weíre not lowering ourselves or doing a cheap trick when we do a prediction. Like I said above itís our only way of checking our technique. Iíve seen people spin oppositions into positive answers, and bring up techniques that Iíve never heard of before Ė a solstice of Neptune, the Sabian symbols of antiscia, contrantiscia of the midpoint of the Moon and Neptune, a demilunar revolution with precession, the vertex and planets that donít even exist like Lillith. As far as looking back at a chart where we know the answer, any technique that we can devise is as solid as the next. They all give the right answer because we know the right answer. So when weíre just doing hindsight explanations, all techniques are as valid as the rest. Itís only when we do predictions that our techniques are proven right or wrong.

There is also that modern trap thatís lurking right around the corner, and thatís the idea that all of life is just one big lesson, that nothing is bad and nothing is good. This fits when you canít predict anything. I know Iíve told this story before but itís worth telling again. Years ago a friend of my parents was running for office and her astrologer told her that sheíd win. Once she got clobbered he revised his prediction to say that something good would come from it and she agreed with that because she found it a lot of fun to run for office. Well, yes, but thatís hardly the same thing. Itís not superficial to want a real answer to real questions. I donít think Sue was saying that, but thatís a feeling that sure is out there and itís a strong one. Itís the modern astrologers who are being superficial when they couch all their predictions in double-talk about growth and change, which could cover anything from being fired from your job to being hired for a new one.
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granny_skot



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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a further attempt to stave off arthritis... Wink

Aha! I think I understand. I'm not certain anyone in this group is trying to say they know everything about Mundane astrology, I was under the impression we were trying to figure it out??? I could be mistaken there, but that is my impression, also that occasionally someone seems to find a thread they think is important or at least has some directional bearing qualities.

Though I will say I think some people here have a better grasp than others (others equals me) ....

Granny
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###



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Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Itís only when we do predictions that our techniques are proven right or wrong.

Thatís assuming that knowledge of all future events and circumstances is always and completely possible. I doubt if few astrologers, ancient or modern, would agree with that. Taking such a position is philosophically risky and has little historical support in nearly all cultures.

If you are in agreement that such complete knowledge of the future isnít possible, then youíre left working with techniques that may or may not be useful and accurate. If a prediction failed to materialize was it because of faulty techniques or because the future in this case just was not to be known? Youíre left with uncertainty concerning your techniques Ė they havenít been proven. And are we really trying to prove our techniques or trying to get astrology to prove itself?

Quote:
Prediction tests our understanding and technique like nothing else can.


I would say that accurate description in the chart of people and past or current circumstances would be much more reliable. This would be description of what is and what has been Ė much safer than looking at what might be.
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark

Quote:
Iím usually pretty skeptical of the way that transits are used without regard to any sort of base chart, be it a natal, solar ingress or whatever.


Are you suggesting that planets donít have any influence/significance unless viewed by comparison with a chart? Smile Mundane astrology is the study of planetary cycles as related to world affairs, and (as I understand it) works on the principal that planetary cycles create world-wide effects, though those effects will be witnessed most readily when they fall upon sensitive points or relevant situations. Although I obviously see the sense of referring them primarily to charts that are receptive, I wouldnít go so far as to suggest that there has to be a pre-existing chart for planetary conjunctions and aspects to mean something in their own right. Aphorism 50 of Ptolemyís Centiloquium reads:

"In your general judgement pass not over the 120 Conjunctions. For the knowledge of Mundane affairs is posited therein, as well of generation as corruption."


Quote:
You seem to be using the time of the conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter as the base chart here, and then seeing when other planets have significant and unusual contacts with the sensitive point where their conjunction occurred, in this case at 22į 43í Taurus. Is that right?


I didnít use a base chart for this. My point was only that Mars, when it stationed upon a certain degree, set the seeds of a controversy that came to full blown manifestation when Mars returned to that degree after its retrograde loop. And that return was to a particularly sensitive area with regard to that controversy for a number of reasons that I mentioned. Lilly advises a 5 degree orb for contact with Algol, so by 3Ĺ degrees I certainly think this is a significant contact with Mars, especially since this was at a time when there was a great deal of inflamed passions, emotive anger, and widespread fear, with the element of heads being lost, demonstrating how the astrological picture accurately described the kinds of tensions in play at the time. So not so much a base chart in my mind, but a comparison between the influences that came out into the open under that Mars-Algol contact, and the events that preceded them under the previous contact.

Quote:
And then once we isolate a transit, like this Mars one, how do we figure out where on earth its effects will be felt and how they will be felt?


This is where I think the experience of watching, monitoring, and taking notice of these kinds of things is a very useful exercise. I doubt it is possible to reliably and successfully Ďpredictí in mundane astrology unless you are keeping a steady, watchful eye on mundane affairs. (Iíll never be a good mundane astrologer because I struggle to keep up with politics and what is going on in the world Smile )

Quote:
Also what are some good traditional books on such things?


If your interest is in 17th century texts I think youíll find Rameseyís work very good, but you also ought to be exploring the background philosophy of the quality of air and weather. Personally I like the approach that Dennis Elwell takes in these matters, and his powers of prediction were publicly proven by his forewarnings to P&O over the Herald of Fee enterprise disaster. I also think that books like ĎThe Combination of Stellar Influencesí by Reinhold Ebertin are essential, but Iím not sure whether youíll feel the same.

Incidentally, Iíve noticed in this forum lately there seems to be a sense of disapproval for transits, as if they are not a genuinely traditional tool for prediction. I canít understand where that idea comes from. The book ďDorotheus, Orpheus, Anubio and Pseudo Valens: Teachings on TransitsĒ (PH, translated by R. Schmidt) should remove all doubt about the historical basis of transits. And of course the astrological notion that retrograde loops create a repeat of mundane events goes way back to the cuneiform texts.

Regards
Deb
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