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Family you came from vs. family you build

 
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 466

Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:20 am    Post subject: Family you came from vs. family you build Reply with quote

Hello everybody:-

A basic question. How do you differentiate between the home/family you came from and the home/family you build? If your 4th house is terrible (malefics in the 4th and ruler of the 4th in bad condition) does this mean that the home/family you came from was terrible or the home/family you are going to build (or worse both)? In horary, we simply assign the current issue to the appropriate house. In matters concerning home/family, we refer to the 4th and the significator represents whatever is in the mind of the querent (whichever family he’s thinking about). In natal we must have two different significators of the home/family, the one we came from and the one that we hopefully going to have.

My thoughts:-
1) Take planets in the 4th (if applicable) and the ruler of the 4th house as the home/family the native came from. Take the dispositor (sign ruler) of the position of the ruler of 4th as the home/family the native is going to build.
Reason: The planet itself (ruler of the 4th) is the primary ruler of the primary meanings of the house in question. Dispositor of the planet tells us what is going to happen later to the significations of the planet the dispositor disposits.

2) Use the tripartite temporal rulerships of the triplicity rulers (Dorothean) of each house. Examples are shown in Bonatti’s system of interpreting each house meanings e.g. the first triplicity ruler of the 2nd house governs the first part of native’s financial life, the second triplicity ruler of the 2nd house governs the second part of financial life and the third triplicity ruler governs the last part of financial life. For the 4th house onwards, Bonatti (following the Arabs, e.g. Abu Ma’shar) use the three triplicity rulers as refinement of rulership e.g. the first triplicity ruler of the 4th house is the father, the second triplicity is land and the third triplicity ruler is the endings. In fact each house that has many meanings are refined in this way using the 3 triplicity rulers. Can we then extrapolate this by saying that the tripartite temporal rulerships are also valid for 4th house, hence the first triplicity ruler governs the first part of family life (family you came from), second triplicity ruler governs the second part of family life and the third governs the last part of your family/home life?

3) Derived house system. In my culture, one can have 2 or more different families with each having different house and children due to polygamy. I only use derived house system for these cases esp. in horary e.g. Should I bring my second wife and my children (from her side) or should I bring my first wife and my children (from her side)…? Weird isn’t it?

4) Anything else?
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al Habashi



Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 17
Location: DEEP DARK WALES

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2006 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi astrojin

In specific reply to your points:

1. I can see your logic in looking at the dispositor here, but as I've not used this technique I can't comment. As I'm away from my books and notes I can't remember for sure, but I think the Dorotheans use the dispositor of the sect parent significator to show their fortunes after the birth of the native; or it may be the triplicity ruler.

2. Bonatti seems to be following ibn Ezra here, but Aboaly, Hermes and Dorotheus recommend the first triplicity lord be used to signify death and the second as illness (vice versa?). As I figure IV is "the parents" in any case I'm not too keen on this - unless it works really well!

3. This is a tricky one! Here perhaps I would look at the triplicity rulers of VII, or even Venus I guess. Perhaps verify them with planetary body and personality types: as its never come up for me, I've never had to think about it before.

4. The way I approach this is by using the implied relationships among the different generations within the extended family.

For instance, I use IV and its Lord as the significators of both parents, and the early home life. The relationships with each individual parent are further delineated with AC Lord's relationships and receptions with the sect-specific parental significator (Sun/Saturn, Venus/Moon), and for that matter, the Lord of III and III for siblings, etc.

Marital bliss or torment is indicated by Venus and her triplicity lords, VII and its Lord, and their relationships with Lord AC. Dorotheus and Aboaly give plenty of maxims about sexual preference, infidelity, perversion and so on, to an almost deliriously detailed degree, so further testimonies of good or bad "built" family life can be gleaned.

The possibility of and relationships with the children, the happiness or sorrow they cause, their mutual amity or enmity are judged in a similar way, using V and its Lord, Jupiter etc.

I cross check by judging the pertient parts, and I build up a picture of the childhood and adult family lives.

In this way I have unwittingly avoided the problems you have raised. I hope its of some use to astrojin.

Love and peace

al Habashi
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sigma4



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 116

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
4) Anything else?


How about arabic parts such as the "part of father"?

It would be nice though if we had something like "part of current family" Thumbs up
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borealis



Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 132

Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read this post like, last week, and have done much research since.....I have no anwser (at least intelligent one yet) yet, but will be back if I ever even come close to a conclusion.


Smile Borealis:)
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is something by Rob Hand from the StarIQ.com site.

Astrology by Hand Week 34: More on the Two Functions of Planets
http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0002143.HTM

"As the planet occupies a house and sign, it tells us about that house and sign in early life. As a planet rules a house and sign, it tells us about something in later life.

Where does this come from? It comes from a characteristic of matter and essence as held by medieval philosophy. Matter is intrinsically formless but has the capability of assuming forms. At the beginning of a process, the forms exist only as potentials of the matter. Gradually, the forms begin to manifest in the matter and take on actual existence. This is quite similar to the modern idea of potential and kinetic energy. In fact, the modern idea is historically derived from the medieval one.

Now soul is a form, an essence, what a living being really is. Therefore, the body as matter gives rise to the actual form or essence, the soul, over time. Or it can be that a set of early conditions in life gradually gives rise to a new set of circumstances come later on. So the ruler of a house and sign indicates the outcome or future state of that house and sign.

So we have two related but distinct pairs of functions of the planets both derived from the evolution of matter toward its final form.

Planet in House....Ruler of House
Matter......................Form
Physical...................Psychological
Earlier......................Later

The early-later distinction does not just mean early life versus later life, although it includes that. It also means that in any process that goes from an early phase to a later phase, the occupant of a house or the sign in a house indicates the early phase of that process and the rulers indicate the outcome or later phases."


This is developed from the previous article of the series:
Astrology by Hand Week 33: Another Interesting Passage from Schoener
http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0002107.HTM
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 466

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all!!!

And Borealis, I eagerly await your research!
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Thorvic



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4
Location: Kiev, Rus

Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The family you were born - 4-th house. Your own family - 10th house.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 466

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thorvic:-

10th house? Why? Your source?
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Thorvic



Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 4
Location: Kiev, Rus

Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take, for example, Marcus Manilius. In his "Astronomicon", the Second Book, he wrote:

"arce sed in caeli, qua summa acclivia finem
inveniunt, qua principium declivia sumunt,
culminaque insurgunt occasus inter et ortus
suspenduntque suo libratum examine mundum,
asserit hanc Cytherea sibi per sidera sedem
et velut in facie mundi sua collocat ora,
per quae humana regit. propria est haec reddita parti
vis, ut conubia et thalamos taedasque gubernet:
haec tutela decet Venerem, sua tela movere".

Unfortunately, I do not have it in English. Only Latin and Russian.

Robert Schmidt in his article "The Facets of Fate: The Rationale Underlying the Hellenistic System of Houses" also describes the same point of view.
_________________
Quis caelum posset nisi caeli munere nosse, et reperire deum, nisi qui pars ipse deorum est?
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 466

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Thorvic,

Quote:
Take, for example, Marcus Manilius. In his "Astronomicon", the Second Book, he wrote:

"arce sed in caeli, qua summa acclivia finem
inveniunt, qua principium declivia sumunt,
culminaque insurgunt occasus inter et ortus
suspenduntque suo libratum examine mundum,
asserit hanc Cytherea sibi per sidera sedem
et velut in facie mundi sua collocat ora,
per quae humana regit. propria est haec reddita parti
vis, ut conubia et thalamos taedasque gubernet:
haec tutela decet Venerem, sua tela movere".

Unfortunately, I do not have it in English. Only Latin and Russian.


The translation (G.P. Goold, 1977:-


But in the citadel of the sky,
where the rising curve attains its consummation,
and the downward slope makes its beginning,
and the summit towers midway between orient and occident and holds the universe poised in its balance,
here does the Cytherean claim her abode among the stars,
placing in the very face of heaven, as it were,
her beauteous features,
where with she rules the affairs of men.
To the abode is fittingly given the power to govern wedlock,
the bridal chamber, and the marriage torch:
and this charge suits Venus,
the charge of plying her own weapons.


The poem only say that the 4th is the beginning and 10th (citadel) is the consummation similar to what we say as 4th = roots and 10th = highest aspiration. It does not directly refer to family... unless I understand wrongly.
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I get

father and ancestors 4th,
Mother 10th (7th from 4th)
children 5th
siblings 3rd
spouse 7th
all from Deb, temples book

adopted verses biological family? that one I'm at a loss for? hoping to hear from deb here. (I thought of things like How will bio mother and adoptive parents get along? Will dad and stepfather behave at the birthday party? or fight? or who will get custody? or?? all kinds of quiestions relating to biological verses adopted, adn I'm not certain how one would perceive them? )

Granny
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