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Groupings of Signs.

 
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Draco



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 176
Location: England.

Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 10:45 pm    Post subject: Groupings of Signs. Reply with quote

Hi all,

I found this reference to various groupings of signs on the Urania website:

Quote:
How many patterns of signs do you know - I mean patterns like "the Fire signs", "the Autumn signs", "the nocturnal signs" etc.? Being able to recognize major groups of signs is important for several reasons: it can help us read ancient texts; it can help us notice similarities and differences in our practice.

Spring signs: ar, ta, ge. Applicable only in tropical context.

Summer or Aestival signs: cn, le, vi. Applicable only in tropical context.

Autumnal signs: lb, sc, sg. Applicable only in tropical context.

Winter or Hiemal signs: cp, aq, ps. Applicable only in tropical context.

Commanding signs, also called Northern = Spring + Summer signs.

Obeying signs, also called Southern = Autumnal + Winter signs.

Ascending signs, also called signs of Short ascension = Winter + Spring signs.

Descending signs, also called signs of Long ascension = Summer + Autumn signs.

--The following groups can be used in tropical or sidereal contexts.

Cardinal signs, also called Moveable, Leading, or Initiating = ar, cn, lb, cp.
Fixed signs, also called Conceptive, = ta, le, sc, aq.

Mutable signs, also called Common, Dual, or Bicorporeal = ge, vi, sg, ps.

Fire signs, also called Bitter = ar, le, sg.

Earth signs, also called Melancholy = ta, vi, cp.

Air signs, also called Whole, Perfect, or Sweet = ge, lb, aq.

Water signs, also called Fruitful, Mute or Hoarse = cn, sc, ps.

Diurnal signs, also called Positive or Masculine = Fire + Air signs.

Nocturnal signs, also called Negative or Feminine = Earth + Water signs.

Note: I much prefer the designations "Diurnal" and "Nocturnal".

Dry signs = Fire + Earth signs.

Moist signs = Air + Water signs.

Equinoctial signs = ar, lb.

Tropical signs = cn, cp. Note: there seems to be no term for the four signs which border on the equinoctial points, nor for the four which border on the solstitial points.

Crooked signs = ta, cp, ps.

Human signs = ge, vi, aq and the first half of sg. Note: do some authors include lb?

Imperfect signs, also called Broken or Mutilated = le, sc, ps.

Brutish signs = le and the second half of sg.

Barren signs = ge, le, vi.

Quadrupedal signs, also called Four-footed = ar, ta, le, sg, cp.

Ruminant signs = ar, ta, cp.

Feral signs, also called Bestial = cp + Brutish + Ruminant signs.

Strong signs = sc, aq.

Violent signs = ar, lb, sc, cp, aq.

Weak signs = cn, cp, ps.

Apparently, there are 4095 ways to group the twelve signs of the zodiac! Surprised

Given this list, I am confused as to why certain signs should be grouped in such a way.

Why are Taurus, Capricorn and Pisces 'crooked'?

Why are Scorpio and Aquarius 'strong'?

Why are Cancer, Capricorn and Pisces 'weak'?

Why are Aries, Libra, Scorpio, Capricorn and Aquarius 'violent'?

The reasons for the groupings of the other signs in the list are self-explanatory, but I puzzle as to why these signs I have inquired about should be grouped together as crooked, strong, weak and violent.

What is the logic behind such attributions? Do you know of any other ways in which signs can be grouped? Have you ever thought of your own ways of grouping them?

Oh, and I forgot, why are Leo, Scorpio and Pisces 'broken', 'imperfect' or 'mutilated'? Confused

Draco Wink
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Tom
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Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Draco,

As you said, many of these are self-explanatory. The others are rarely used but it is fun to know what they mean, and there is probably more than one definition given that some of these attributes date way back.



Quote:
Why are Taurus, Capricorn and Pisces 'crooked'?


One cardinal, one fixed, and one mutable sign. One definition (and I have a hard time with this) says they are so named because anyone born with the Moon or ASC in one of these signs and either the Moon or ASC is afflicted by malefics, the native's body will be "crooked" or imperfect. I can't imagine this would stand up to rigorous analysis.

Dorotheus discusses straight and crooked signs without naming them on page 263 of the Pingree translation (Ascella). This is part of the 5th book of interrogations (horary). Basically if a straight sign rises things will be slow and difficult. If a malefic is in the sign as it rises things willbe tough, but it could be mitigated by an aspect from a benefic. If a crooked sign rises and is beneficially aspected the burden is removed. If both a benefic and malefic aspect then the results are mixed. This seems to indicate that the querent would be better off with neither a straight nor crooked sign rising. I don't know what the straight signs are.


Quote:
Why are Scorpio and Aquarius 'strong'?


They are said to give strong athletic bodies.

Quote:
Why are Cancer, Capricorn and Pisces 'weak'?


They are said to give weak bodies. This stuff is long out of use, and probably for good reason.

Quote:
Why are Aries, Libra, Scorpio, Capricorn and Aquarius 'violent'?


Probably because they are all Mars and Saturn signs. Aries is the domicile of Mars and fall of Saturn. Libra the exaltation of Saturn and the detriment of Mars. Capricorn the rulership of Saturn and exaltation of Mars. Aquarius is the rulership of Saturn, but has no major Mars connection.

Quote:
Leo, Scorpio and Pisces 'broken', 'imperfect' or 'mutilated'?


These signs were considered the most likely to produce imperfect bodies. I don't know why.

Have you found pitted or smokey degrees, yet?

Tom

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Draco



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 176
Location: England.

Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

Thankyou for your information. Smile

About crooked signs,

Quote:
One definition (and I have a hard time with this) says they are so named because anyone born with the Moon or ASC in one of these signs and either the Moon or ASC is afflicted by malefics, the native's body will be "crooked" or imperfect.


Well I am Pisces rising, but as far as I am aware, I wasn't born 'crooked'. Confused

The strong signs:
Quote:

They are said to give strong athletic bodies.


I see, but why Scorpio and Aquarius in particular?

Weak signs:

Quote:
They are said to give weak bodies. This stuff is long out of use, and probably for good reason.


LOL. I see. It seems the groupings of the zodiac based upon equal divisions of twelve are the most significant, but as you say, it is fun to know of these arcane groupings.

Violent signs:
Quote:

Probably because they are all Mars and Saturn signs. Aries is the domicile of Mars and fall of Saturn. Libra the exaltation of Saturn and the detriment of Mars. Capricorn the rulership of Saturn and exaltation of Mars. Aquarius is the rulership of Saturn, but has no major Mars connection.


Now it makes more sense. If I had bothered to have exercised my brain, I could possibly have spotted this. Rolling Eyes Still, it seems odd that Libra is considered 'violent', it would seem obviously the most civilised, diplomatic and peaceful of signs.

Broken signs:

Quote:
These signs were considered the most likely to produce imperfect bodies. I don't know why.


Charming. I am Pisces rising, so I am at once both 'crooked', 'weak' and 'broken'. Shocked Perhaps having Jupiter trine the Ascendant is my saving grace?

Do you know of any more such groupings?

I have often wondered why Libra has never been singled out for special significance, being that it is the only sign represented by a man-made object. Has it never been called anything such as an 'inanimate' or 'unconcious' sign?

About the smokey and pitted degrees. I have indeed found out a little bit about them from this site, but I am going to see if I can find out any more about these degrees, and then I shall return to discuss them with you further.

Draco Wink
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Tom
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Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well I am Pisces rising, but as far as I am aware, I wasn't born 'crooked'.


I don't particularly agree with this stuff; as I noted most things are long out of use, but contemporary folk like you and me, thend to look at this stuff the wrong way around. Having a crooked sign doesn't mean you're crooked, but if you were crooked you might well have a crooked sign rising. I'm wondering if crooked signs didn't get their names from the way the constellations with the same name rise in certain parts of the world? Just a guess.

Quote:
I see, but why Scorpio and Aquarius in particular?


I don't know for sure, but I'd guess the Mars (strength), Saturn (structure) influence.

Quote:
Still, it seems odd that Libra is considered 'violent', it would seem obviously the most civilised, diplomatic and peaceful of signs.


And Adolph Hitler had it rising. Libra is, in my opinion is way misunderstood. It is a masculine (i.e., assertive) cardinal (initiating) sign. If Libra is involved in a relationship, Libra is in charge of it (Not Libras or all people with Libra rising, but Libra types). Don't underestimate its strength.

Quote:
I have often wondered why Libra has never been singled out for special significance, being that it is the only sign represented by a man-made object. Has it never been called anything such as an 'inanimate' or 'unconcious' sign?


Libra is considered a "humane" sign along with Gemini, Aquarius, and the first half of Sagittarius. It is considered humane because it is man made.

Enjoy!

Tom
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deeptiman



Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 76
Location: São Paulo-SP brazil

Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 4:52 pm    Post subject: Straight signs Reply with quote

Hi Tom and others,
according to Dorotheus; "The straight among them are Cancer,Leo,Virgo, libra,Scorpio and Sagittarius because each one of these six rises in two hours and a part of an hour of the equinoctial hours.."(Carmen Astrologicum -book 5-1 translated by David pingree)
All th best
Gerson
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eon



Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 32
Location: Tulsa, OK

Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Leo, Scorpio and Pisces 'broken', 'imperfect' or 'mutilated'?
-----
These signs were considered the most likely to produce imperfect bodies. I don't know why."



Is Leo hot, dry, or is it hot, moist? It doesn't make sense to me for them to be dry considering the personality and physical appearence seems to relate more to moist than dry.

I know that Pisceans (since I am one), have skin problems and water retention problems, so... Maybe this is all metaphorical (and possibly physical) moisture that is overwhelming the appearence. But then again, I would find that these signs all have something about them that stands out, physically, that overwhelms the appearence, and not that they are dull looking.
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Tom
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Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that the crooked signs are the signs of short ascension. From a footnote in The Beginning of Wisdom by Ibn Ezra, footnote by Robert Hand:

Quote:
In most of the Arabic era texts and the Latin ones derived from them, the word "crooked" is used to denote short ascension because the signs do not rise upright in the East but instead rise obliquely with respect to the Eastern horizon. "crooked" as opposed to "upright."


Apparently this was the designation in Dorotheus'' time, too.

Tom
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