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Old books and USA
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Futurist



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 12

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:17 pm    Post subject: Old books and USA Reply with quote

Dear Deb
I live in Windsor, UK and last week whilst mooching around near Eton College I went into a second hand bookshop - not a charity shop but one of those real old fashioned establishments where the musty smell of the books is overpowering and you have to stoop to avoid hitting the roof. I was just about to ask the old guy running it if he had an esoteric section when I literally tripped over a pile of books with a big hand-drawn sign resting on the top saying 'Astrology'. Well, I thought I had died and gone to heaven when the pile included these original copy books, all in good condition; The Radix System and Electional Astrology by Robson. The Manual of Astrology, How to make and read your own horoscope by Sepharial, The Foundations Of Astrology and Some Principles of Horoscopic Delineation by CEO Carter, Commonsense Astrology by Louis De Wohl, Astrology and It's Practical Application translated from dutch by E. Parker and two tiny books by Alan Leo- one on Horary the other a book of chart data.

The proprietor could see my obvious delight and mentioned that he didn't get many astrologers in so if I wanted to take the lot I could have them all for £35!

Two things, firstly are any of these books particularly rare Deb or have you found and reprinted most of them? Secondly, in the Alan Leo book printed in 1917, 1001 Notable Nativities, there's some fascinating data, not least the entry for the signing of the US Declaration. Leo notes: "it was adopted by the Contintental Congress at Philadelphia at 0.10 noon (some authorities give 10 mins later)". His reference for this is Modern Astrology, Vol 1,Old series and The Sphinx, an American monthly edited by Catherine H Thompson vols i and ii 1899 to June 1900 then he says " the declaration was signed 3.4am 4.7.1776 (4th July) congress sat all night debating" and attributes this to Zadkiels The Future, Feb - Dec 1892 Finally he writes..
"Secession of southern States; voting of Resolution of Secession completed 1.15pm 20.12 1860 Columbia, South Carolina" he atrributes this to the same source but Jan - Dec edition 1893.

Is this an interesting find, or has this info from this book come to light before? If not I am inclined to give it great weight due to the date this book was written.

I don't really want to stir up the whole debate on the correct timing of the chart again but I thought what I had 'tripped across' should be circulated.

x
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say something interesting but i'm drooling on my keyboard, you lucky dog! Granny
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: England

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itís a long time since Iíve been involved in the book trade and even then I never had an appreciation of the value of originals so I probably canít be of much help. But I certainly think you got a good deal. Iíve noticed that years ago I was able to pick up books like this for next to nothing, but as the interest in traditional works has become broadened itís very hard to find them at bargain prices now.

The fact that many of these have been reproduced in facsimile is not going to undermine the value of an original copy Ė it could make it more marketable because of the attention it draws to a book that otherwise wouldnít receive much interest. Itís funny because Iíve been preparing an article about Louis de Wohl and just the other day I was searching the internet, noticing how difficult it was to obtain copies of his astrological works. I donít think they are held in great regard Ė one of the comments in the article was ďwhen youíve read one, you know them allĒ, but his role as the government astrologer in WWII gives them that added interest.

I can tell you that Leoís 1001 Notable Nativities has been around in facsimile for some time but Iím not sure how popular itís been of late Ė it was only ordered occasionally when I sold it. And I donít know how much attention has been given to the USA data, or if it was ever even noticed.

Depending on where and how you sold them it might be possible to get for any one of those books what you paid for them all in total, but my advice would be to keep them and be glad you got a good deal. Part of the attraction for me is in not knowing what other astrologer might have owned them and read them with interest before. I while back I picked out a book like this that had been on my bookshelf for years without me bothering to read it. When I did there was an overpowering smell of pipe tobacco. I know thatís not a big deal but it added to the mystery that something as transitory as the smell of its previous owner as whoever it was read it with their pipe in hand could become trapped in the book for over 60 years. And I love it when I see scribbles. My copy of Electional Astrology from 1937 has got calculations on the back page, turned down corners, red underlining throughout and a mass of neat pencil notes in the margins, where main points are picked out for easy reference. Whoever owned it first obviously studied it intently, and they made my reading and reference a lot easier because they did pick out all the best points or noted where the rules seemed contradictory. It felt good to sense a kindred spirit Ė I might hold these books in regard but never in such high regard that I donít immediately start defacing them with my pen the minute I get my hands on them. Only my scribbles are not nearly as neat or well organised Smile
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Futurist



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 12

Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that info Deb. Must just add however that it is interesting how you read my post, I was asking if they were rare - as in are there loads of facsimiles floating around?

"Two things, firstly are any of these books particularly rare Deb or have you found and reprinted most of them? Secondly, in the Alan Leo book printed in 1917...",

I didn't know you were not still in the book trade and thought you may like to seize on one if it was rare to reprint it for the community.

I never was interested in their resale value and wouldn't consider selling them. I consider myself so lucky to have all these tomes in my possession at such a steal. BTW I also got in my 'package' The Silver key by Sepharial which is a great little book on how to win at horseracing and a copy of The Secret Doctrine (abridged)by M. Blavatsky

re the data for the USA I have run some charts and I think that 03.04 seems like a 'sound' time. Particularly when you use the WTC data and compare it to progressed charts. midpoints etc.

I am currently reading through the Alan Leo book on Horary in which he has reproduced The Centiloquy of Claudius Ptolemy adding that 'this is extracted from Ashmand's translation, a work that has become very scarce'. If I come across anything particularly interesting in any of these books I'll certainly share

Thanks again
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the Declaration of Independence. Congress declared independence from Great Britain on July 2, 1776. John Adams thought this day would be celebrated as the date of American Indepedence.

No one knows for certain what time the document was signed. A time line at this website: http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/timeline.htm says it was in the morning. Who knows?

It was not ratified and therefore not official until August 2, 1776.

However, there is something to be said for symbolic events and July 4, 1776, if not an official date in any legal or logical sense, certainly is the symbolic date of American Independence, and a chart for that date cast for Philadelphia would be significant. As for the time, not only will we never know for sure, but I wonder if it really matters.

One day I'll test my hypothesis: that one could take any date and time at all in 1776 (or 1775 or 1777 etc) and there will be "hits" by transits at significant times in American history. The same could be done for any event. This is why no matter how many times and even dates (A good case for American Independence can be made for the Battle of Bunker Hill chart in 1775) they all seem to "work," particularly with hindsight.

Quote:
His reference for this is Modern Astrology, Vol 1,Old series and The Sphinx, an American monthly edited by Catherine H Thompson vols i and ii 1899 to June 1900


Catherine Thompson is one of those forgotten pioneers of American Astrology. She was taught by Luke Broughton and studied with and taught Evangeline Adams. They must have had a falling out of some kind as Adams never mentions Thompson's name in any of her writings and may have even denied knowing her. Thompson was best known as a financial astrologer, but died broke, not due to astrology, but to the loss of her fortune in court. For the longest time no one knew what happened to her, but I believe Karen Christino unearthed information about her final years.

If anyone has anything at all written by her, I would be very interested in purchasing it.

Tom
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Futurist



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 12

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know what, I am giving up posting on these forums. I was simply sharing some information that I was excited about and which I felt may be of interest. Instead of writing and saying, thanks for sharing or hey that's interesting, but we'll never know the time for sure and it is my opinion that it doesn't really matter because .... I get thinly veiled atacks that smack of superiority. There's no question of it being a sharing or a discussion in those replies.

Even my post to Deb was construed as my being some money grabbing enquiry rather than the being seen for the altrustic intent that was behind it.

You should join forces with Theo on astrologyweekly.com Tom. Instead of chatting about this subject in a way that fosters community spirit all his replies to me are also ego driven- the type that have a subtext saying, you couldn't possibly have stumbled across accurate information, I know best, let me have the last word type posts.

We all know there is no right or wrong on this particular subject. Unless someone could resurrect one of the signaturees we'll never know - that's a given. I merely threw some more info into the ring as I wasn't sure if it was widely known and I mentioned that this 03.04 time does seem to 'work' - as, I concur, they all do. 03.04 must have come from somewhere.

I really despair. Why would I ever want to share anything again with the community if these are the type of responses I get? We all appear to have an interest in common but instead of being able to enjoy our fellowship I feel there's an unhealthy rivalry and simply a lack of warmth, camaraderie and general niceness about.

Ps Granny, If I lived nearer to CA I'd lend you the lot x
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: England

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Even my post to Deb was construed as my being some money grabbing enquiry rather than the being seen for the altrustic intent that was behind it.


What? That never crossed my mind for a moment. If I did misinterpret your request, I donít think I made a big issue out of anything. It was probably partly because you asked if they were rare immediately after saying what you paid for them, but also because I very often get people contacting me to see if I know anything about the value of original texts - which of course is nothing to do with you but I just assumed you were interested in that regard. Even so I would never have construed it as a Ďmoney-grabbing enquiryí.

No offence was implied. But then I canít see anything offensive in Tomís post either.

It doesnít seem very fair to address your query specifically to me, and then get so touchy about my response when my perfectly innocent intention was merely to give you some information. Isnít that what Tom has done too? Isnít he just sharing his time and information in response to the query you raised?
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Futurist



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 12

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depending on where and how you sold them it might be possible to get for any one of those books what you paid for them all in total, but my advice would be to keep them and be glad you got a good deal.

I didn't find either of the replies offensive although I have to admit, being over the age of 40, I did find your line above a little patronising as I am well aware of my luck at having these books.

I recognise that this medium cannot convey intonation Deb and the contents of many responses are often misconstrued due to the difference in the way they are written, verses the way they are actually meant. Yes, your reply was informative if I had been enquiring if you could value my find. I also learned that Alan Leo has been reprinted.

However, I stand by my need to write such a response and the defensiveness of your reply further confirms my feelings about the general nature of the 'sharing'. A discussion from Tom as to why Catherine Thompson or Zadkiel may have produced 'dirty data' would have been so much better received than what read (to me) like an outright dismissal of the info I had provided.

I will continue to read and enjoy peoples' posts to the forums but I can see no benefit in contributing myself as I personally discern a lack of 'kindred spirit' and giving - not just here but in the community at large. Call it being touchy if you will but it's this very quality (Neptune)which embues me with great compassion and insight and an (idealistic) wish for more love, co operation and harmony in the world.
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You should join forces with Theo on astrologyweekly.com Tom. Instead of chatting about this subject in a way that fosters community spirit all his replies to me are also ego driven- the type that have a subtext saying, you couldn't possibly have stumbled across accurate information, I know best, let me have the last word type posts.


While I have no idea who Theo is, I'm sure he wouldn't like me either. One will have a difficult life indeed if he or she takes offense at every bit of information that contradicts what he or she wishes to believe. The fact that I pointed out there are lots of opinions on the matter would indicate that it isn't my ego that is troubled. It was just information: nothing more.

Rather than getting your feelings hurt a better response might have been something like this: "Thompson was an outstanding astrologer who lived over 100 years closer to the events than we do. Perhaps she had some information that is no longer widely known. Is it possible that someone has access to the old periodicals that were cited?"

Or: Does anyone have any information about this chart or about Catherine Thompson?

In those cases you would have been genuinely sharing and making productive use of your good fortune rather than simply boasting about it.

Best wishes,

Tom
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Futurist



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 12

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I rest my case. That response says far more about you and where you are coming from than it does about me, Tom
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Futurist,

thanks for thinking of me, and I'd love to read the Sepharial on Horseracing, my Daughter lives near Churchill downs, maybe we can do some experiments? =)

I would like to suggest that you backtrack a bit and rethink some of the other responses, because while I know exactly how you feel, I've gotten upset by the same issues myself, I think it is partly a misunderstanding on our part of what these good people are trying to convey, and partly not something we should let get us so upset.

I find when I let mysefl get irritated with peoples misunderstanding of what I'm trying ot convey, I lose track of the message I want to re-inforce. Also when people Read, they tend to pick up the things that are important in their minds out of the text, With Deb, her answer suggests TO ME, that she feels that the words of the old astrologers are finally being given their due worth. I think you could appreciate that thought. Also From Tom, early American History seems to be heavy on his mind and I can see why he goes there. He also seems to me to buy into his own theories to the exclusion of others when he's really on a roll, but I think that is an important part of testing theory so I just let it rest on the back of my head when it comes to historical stuff. I can get the same way, even when I try to fight it, I do get dragged into my own theories a bit to hard somedays. Of course this is just the impression I get of them, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with who they really are. And that is a great deal of what the internet and writing is about. You think you are putting out to the world one face, but once its out there people read it as they will.

If this is the kind of information you like to share, I for one would be really sad if you stopped sharing. I appreciate the information.

Respectfully,

Granny


Last edited by granny_skot on Fri May 19, 2006 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

to Tom

on the 18 of April in 75,
hardly a man is now alive....

As good a day as any to review your thougths, and I'm partial to good silversmiths.

Granny.
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Futurist



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 12

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Granny,

Thank you for taking the time to write. I appreciate your kindness. If you send me your daughters address I will forward the book with great pleasure.

Re the 'misunderstanding', I value your point of view and much of what you say is valid. However, I don't really have the time to look too deeply into this anymore, other than to say, I feel what I feel, I felt what I felt and Tom's final response bears out that my sensitivity (for it can manifest in many ways) was right, there was indeed another message behind his initial words. It was this space-between-the-words bitchyness (in Toms post) that I was railing against rather than anything about my mis-communication with Deb. What should be a place of community sharing becomes anything but a nice place to be.

If when commenting on new found info on the possible USA declaration signing time and sharing a list of books so that Deb can determine if any of them are rare becomes boasting in the eyes of one of her moderators, it's time to either get a new moderator or for the boaster to move quickly along. I think the signal has been loud and clear which it will inevitably be.

It's not life threatening! I'll let you and those of a kinder disposition who do want to read what I have to share visit my website/blog and wish all the rest of you adieu.
x
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I will continue to read and enjoy peoples' posts to the forums but I can see no benefit in contributing myself as I personally discern a lack of 'kindred spirit' and giving - not just here but in the community at large. Call it being touchy if you will but it's this very quality (Neptune)which embues me with great compassion and insight and an (idealistic) wish for more love, co operation and harmony in the world.

I can hear your voice loud and clear: You're a whiner.

Quote:
...it's time to either get a new moderator or for the boaster to move quickly along.

Skyscript without Tom? Ė I wouldnít want to face the possibility. I have learned much from him; he has been one of the major influences in my study of astrology (Our secret Ė please donít tell him I said that).

Quote:
I'll let you and those of a kinder disposition who do want to read what I have to share visit my website/blog and wish all the rest of you adieu.

The cloud of cloying rainbow flatulence is already dissipating. With the retreat of Futurist to the realm of pretty thoughts and neíer an unkind word (and a sackful of delusions), those of us who definitely lack a kinder disposition are left with our ugly egos in the distasteful presentís slime . Itís a nice place.
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Deb
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Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was not being patronising I was being chatty - something I am not with people I disrespect. Tom was being informative. Tom is one of those great contributors who puts his time and effort into answering other peopleís posts, often out of a sense of commitment to the forum, always giving out much more than he ever gets back in return. And as far as the moderators go, the thing I am most proud of regarding this forum is that all of the moderators disagree with each other from time to time, and argue passionately - fervently - about astrological points. But we donít look for sinister motives or resort to ďspace-between-the-words bitchynessĒ when our opinions conflict. There are better things to be getting on with.
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