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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Astrologer's degree?
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 11:02 am    Post subject: Astrologer's degree? Reply with quote

I have heard several people talk about the so called 'Astrologer's degree' at 27 Aquarius.

In traditional astrology the planet associated with Astrology was Mercury and I would therefore have assumed more of a connection to a Mercury ruled sign like Virgo or Gemini if this was an ancient notion.

Does anyone know exactly where this idea originates from?
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Lainie



Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Long Beach, NY

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that really true??? I never heard that before.... my astrology teacher, who lives and breathes astrology and has for 35 years has 27 degrees of Aquarius on her 4th house cusp. She never mentioned it and I've never heard it. Is there a "source" on this?
Lainie
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Kim Farnell



Joined: 18 Dec 2003
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Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This grabbed my attention as I remembered the astrologer's degree as being 27 Leo. I'm not sure where it originated, but one person who appears to have been responsible for spreading the idea around is Charles Carter - Encyclopedia of Psychological Astrology

"The special zodiacal areas associated with Astrology are beyond question those around 27 Leo-Aquarius and 11 Virgo-Pisces."

Carter actually argues against Uranus ruling astrology, and claims a stronger connection with Saturn, hence the emphasis on Aquarius.

Kim
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Mark
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Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot Kim.

The Carter link is very useful. The idea does seem to be quite strong here in Scotland. Its possible that is part of our Theosophical legacy.

However, I couldn't help feeling the source for Carter's comments is even older somehow.

I had wondered if it related to the late nineteenth century book ''Degrees of the Zodiac Symbolised'' by Sepharial and Charubel but I think you already eliminated that from the search.

However, after talking to a local Edinburgh Astrologer the trail led me to the Scottish astrologer Maurice Wemyss who was active in the early twentieth century. I hear he wrote some interesting ideas on the topic of the degrees .....for example emphasising 0 cardinal degrees.

Then I spotted Carter specifically acknowledges Maurice Weymss ideas on the degrees in the foreword to his book ''An Encylopaedia of Psychological astrology''. Although Carter also states makes the point that he had developed his own original ideas in relation to the degree symbolism too. However, could the idea of the Astrologer's degree be traced back to Wemyss? If so no wonder the idea is still popular in Scotland!

Mark
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Draco



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 176
Location: England.

Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

Carter says:

Quote:
The special zodiacal areas associated with Astrology are beyond question those around 27 Leo-Aquarius and 11 Virgo-Pisces.


Does he not mention the important question of why these degree's are associated with astrologer's? I imagine there must be a credible explanation, particularly as he asserts that they are 'beyond question' in their association.

I have my AC/DC Axis across 11 Pisces/Virgo. I would however like to know why this axis is associated with astrology.

Draco Wink
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carnna



Joined: 07 Jul 2006
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Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A truly fascinating subject that many modern astrologers have tried to pinpoint with a single aspect, planet in sign or an occupied degree (sorry, but I don't fall for the quick/single fix in most areas).

There can be many ways in which to determine if someone will be an astrologer/study/professional or just use astrology as an inroad to another art or science.

This is how I determine whether someone is serious about astrological studies & what measure of success they will achieve:

Traditionally, the 9th house governs the area(s) of g-d, religion, science, books & higher learning (as well as long journey's, pilgrimage's....etc.).

What sign, therefore what ruler(s) have it (9th)?...using ALL the 5 main rulerships of sign, exaltation, trips, term and face.....
and where be its ruler(s) that binds it and the house it occupies to the 9th?
What zodiacal condition (sign, mode, triplicity, quad....etc.)?
accidental dignity?
Is it afflicted or free from affliction?

Is the 9th occupied by another (not of rulership) and where is it's rulership in the nativity and therefore ties that/those house(s) to the 9th house? and it's condition, etc.

What are the inclinations coming from asc (i.e. the native), 1st house to the 9th.....(mindful of the 3rd house also due to it's opposition to the 9th) how are they tied together?

Look to the various ways in which:

Saturn (ancient ways, hard serious study of the sciences and his being the connector between sublunary things & the highest spheres),
Jupiter (religious/devout, teacher, even prophetic),
Moon (divination & dreams) and
Mercury (all learning/studying and natural aptitudes in math & science)
....have credence in this area (knowing what the said planets "natural" inclinations towards the art & science of astrology are)
...and have they dignity, accidental dignity (sun in joy in the 9th), aspect or position thereof? does another planet bring any two together (in the all ways this can be accomplished, such as mutual receptions that are not impeded, translation of light, whom is receiving, who is giving, lending, allying or hindering, obstructing or denying and many more that I'm not listing or may not even be aware of)? How strong are they in the chart and what do they promise in the lifetime of the native?

In other words, by now, you've delineated the whole chart through the lens of the 9th and can see the theme(s) and patterns, where they apply and where they do not. You see the promise(s) easy and/or hard, as well as, the denials, obstacles and lack thereof, for all these could possibly be in there - "The unique mixture/signature of the nativity".

Then on to timing, predicting the when of all the above. The timing will show when and which of these apply at certain times during the length of the nativities lifetime. Prediction is another whole series of techniques and charts in tandem with the promise of the nativity.

Some charts just "speak" to you of these things, while others it is a much more subtle or outside influence that brings such things to the attention of the native. While in others there is just plain curiosity, fear or animosity toward these subjects or a "lack" of any interest at all, at all.

That's alot of work, eh? It is. hours of it. Perhaps not knowing this, the ones new to astrology do not realize that they are asking for alot more from you when, you as an astrologer, are asked to find out even one answer to one question pertaining to their nativity. Very few charts are easy to delineate, others down right taskmasters; most are in between; but they all take lots of time, techniques, applied knowledge and experience. Makes 150.00 bucks an hour a down right bargain for the services of a competent astrologer.

this is getting way to long....~grin.....sorry about that
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jac



Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'Competent' is in invocation to whole new can of worms.....
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carnna



Joined: 07 Jul 2006
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Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aye, that it is.
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amelia



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 400
Location: Wales

Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An astrologers' degree suggests that astrologers can be easily defined. It tends to assume there is just one type of astrologer who comes to it as a profession from the beginning of their working life.

But there are traditional astrologers, modern astrologers; there are mundane astrologers, psychological astrologers, business astrologers, horary astrologers; there are those who focus on interpretating birthcharts, those who like to get into the mathematics of harmonics, those who revel in astrology's association with symbolic myths and those who just focus on forecasting the future; and there are those to come to astrology when they are young and stick with it as their life's work and those who come to it late long after they have followed another career for years.

Which, precisely, then, is supposed to be associated with an astrologer's
degree? Hmmm. Perhaps this degree is actually the degree of confrontation since the only thing that all astrologers seem to have in common is that they can never agree with each other! Yeah, go on, tell me I'm wrong!
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had two reasons for creating this post. Firstly, I like history and like to get to the origin of things. Secondly though was a less than noble irritation that such a simplistic notion could be so commonly accepted. I was tired of dealing with the smug argument that someone's Sun, Moon, ASC, MC on 26/27 Aquarius etc had such a mystical connection. I notice its even mentioned in one of the interviews with a professional astrologer here on skyscript. I am not mentioning who!

Carnna presents a far more convincing case for looking at the 9th house in depth. I wonder though if a good aspect/antiscion between the 9th and 10th house ruler might be signifcant if we are discussing astrology as a profession. Equally, what if the 9th and 10th house rulers are the same as in my chart? I guess it all comes down to dignities as always.

I can't help returning my original suggestion that Mercury as the natural significator of astrology might be a good indicator for astrological ability if it is strongly placed in the chart.

Also to take the tone of the thread way down again anyone noticed how many strongly Virgo people are involved in Astrology professionally? Lee Lehman ( a double Virgo) and Liz Greene immediately spring to mind. However, I am aware of several less famous astrologers who have Virgo prominently. In my home city for example we have 5 professional astrologers and 3 are Sun Virgo. Sorry, Carnna I have succumbed to populist analysis again!
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iíve heard it said that Virgo is the most popular sun-sign for astrologers and Taurus the least. Iím a Taurus but I think Iíll be OK because I have a Virgo Moon and my MC is 11 Pisces Smile

Actually Iíd never heard that one before (about 11 Virgo-Pisces). I do remember my first astrology teacher excitedly pointing out that I have Uranus in the Ďastrologerís degreeí, which at the time I thought was meaningless (I still do) because all my close friends from school had it too. But I suppose you would think thatís good if you also believe that Uranus rules astrology Ė which I definitely donít! In fact, Iíd really like to not be an astrologer, just to disprove all this rubbish.
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

Maybe it filtered down from works such as 'Matheseos' (Firmicus Maternus) and the Individual Degrees listed and related to Ascendant.

I'd have thought Asc. & 10th part of the consideration along with Mercury, Saturn etc, and 2nd house due to Jupiter being a significator for that house.

Re Firmicus, eg: 27th Aquarius - "temple servants'; (haven't a listing for 27 Leo - but 27 Leo is trine the 'Galactic Centre'); 26th Gemini - "priests, haruspices, prophets"; 6 Gemini - "inspired seers"; 1 Taurus - "Inspired seer, accustomed to prophesy for temples";7 Taurus - "haruspices, augurs or jugglers"; etc.

I'd have thought planets aspecting the specific degree point mentioned or planets within orb also part of this.

In addition, perhaps the work of 'Charubel' (John Thomas) published by Alan Leo in 1898 and Marc Edmund Jones on Sabian Symbols, and subsequent interpretations influenced this, eg: 27 Leo - "Daybreak";
and others such as 20 Aquarius - "A big white dove, a message bearer"; 20 Leo - "The Zuni Sun Worshippers"; 20 Scorpio - "A woman drawing two dark curtains aside"; 20 Taurus - "Wind, clouds & haste". Also 7 degrees Leo - "Constellations in the sky" .
Then there's 18 Leo - "a teacher of chemistry" (alchemy?); 18 Virgo - "a ouija board"; 16 Taurus - "An old man attempting vainly to reveal the Mysteries".

11 Pisces - "Men seeking illumination"; 11 Gemini "A new path of realism in experience"; 11 Sagittarius - "The lamp of physical enlightenment in the left temple"; or

10 Aries - "A Man teaching new forms for old symbols".

Nicholas De Vore 'Encyclopedia of Astrology" also lists the degrees, eg. 26 degrees 10' Leo - "wisdom, artistic appreciation, knowledge of human nature" etc.

Noel Tyl once mentioned specific research that had been conducted into astrologer's degrees in the past (from memory a few years ago) on his forum ... sorry, can't recall who conducted it ,or where.

And this may also be of interest from Astrodatabank [http://www.astrodatabank.com/AS/ASAstrologyOfAstrologers.htm]:

"In Vedic astrology, Mercury is the planet of astrology, along with Jupiter, due to their rulership of intellectual reasoning, intelligence, speech, computation and knowledge of scriptures.

"Similarly, James Braha asserts that it is common for the greatest Hindu astrologers to have been born with a powerfully disposed Moon (memory) and 2nd house (knowledge)."

"...in the charts of the 100 astrologers tested:

ē 38% had the Sun in Scorpio, Sagittarius or Capricorn and these placements were found in the astrologers charts twice as often as they were found in the control group.

ē Sun, Moon or Mercury was found in a fixed house for 70% of astrologers and Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn were placed in an air house for 71%.

ē None of the astrologers tested had a mutual reception between Sun and Uranus.

ē Pluto, Chiron or the North Node was placed in one of the Gauquelin power zones in 66%."

And:

".... the table shows, having the Moon in Taurus is found significantly more often in the astrologers charts and this is included in the Vedic signature along with Moon in Aquarius, the only other sign where the Moon demonstrated significance by placement. Mercury did not demonstrate significance by dignity but it did demonstrate significance in sidereal Libra, Scorpio and Capricorn."

Good luck with your search.

Kind regards,
TS.
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I dunno... I don't have anything at 27 Aqu/Leo or 11 Vir/Pis; I have what I guess might be other indications of interest in the occult: Uranus and Pluto in the 8th, Jupiter in the 9th, Neptune in Scorpio at the MC. I suppose having my Sun directly conjunct the Galactic Core might help? Or does that just make me a space cadet? Laughing

I suppose that there might be *some* substantiated evidence for a 'astrologer's degree', but I remain sceptical; this, to me, is like saying that 71% of people with Uranus on the Ascendant will be a revolutionary leader. Statistics just won't play it out, unless perhaps they study the charts of thousands and thousands of subjects. Small sample sizes skew statistics, so to speak. (Alliterative!!)

The different descriptions of certain degrees *is* interesting, much like the Sabian Symbols are interesting; I'm just wondering how the investigators arrived at their conclusions...
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Draco,

"I have my AC/DC Axis across 11 Pisces/Virgo. I would however like to know why this axis is associated with astrology."

As I've Firmicus to hand at the minute - "a bright star is in the 10th degree of Pisces .... a familiar of kings;" which astrologers were. The nature/quality of the stars?

Kind regards,
TS
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello TS,

You have been busy!

On Firmicus..I haven't had time to consult my copy. However, I assume his references refer to fixed stars in which case they are no longer relevant surely?

I did consider the book by Charubel and Sepharial 'Degrees of the Zodiac Symbolised' but Kim Farnell stated in a private post there was nothing really there. I don't own the book myself.

I still think Kim's reference to Charles Carter is the strongest candidate so far.

I must admit to be being totally unconvinced by the Sabian symbols. Why not use the ink blot test or cloud shapes to guide you instead?

Interesting on the research. I will of course fully accept the points that fit my own natal chart and exclude the rest!

Mark


Last edited by Mark on Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:21 pm; edited 6 times in total
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