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For Those With a Morbid Streak

 
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Tom
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Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 2:58 am    Post subject: For Those With a Morbid Streak Reply with quote

I came across this gem on another site. We're going to discuss violent death in the chart. If some find that offensive then I suggest not continuing. Vettius Valens discussed things in the chart that indicate a violent death. I've copied them down and added my understanding of them. I am not a Valens expert and in fact have none of his work in my possession, a situation I hope to soon rectify. The point is that there are likely misunderstadings on my part in what follows. Also this is the first time I've tried this so mistakes are a strong possibility, but here goes: we'll start with the aphorisms and then try one. WARNING: This is long.

1. "When the lord of the Conjunction or Whole Moon of the nativity should happen to be in aversion to the zoidion or should fall amiss while being witnessed by a malefic, it indicates violent death."

Explanation: If the lord or lady of the pre-natal lunation in the nativity is in a sign that is either adjacent or five signs away from the sign of the lunation OR if the lord or lady of the pre-natal lunation in the nativity is posited in house 2,3, 6, 8, 9, or 12 AND in aspect with a malefic, a violent death is indicated.

2. "Similarly also, if Hermes should be opposed to the Whole Moon while being witnessed by a malefic, it produces a bad cause of death."

Explanation:
If Mercury in the nativity is opposite the pre-natal full Moon AND in aspect to a malefic, a bad death results.

3. "And if Kronos or Ares or Hermes (Saturn, Mars or Mercury respectively) should be present upon zoidion of the fortieth day, it indicates violent death.”

Explanation: This one is tough and subject to some fudge factoring. If Saturn, Mars, or Mercury in the nativity is in the sign of the Moon on the 40th day after birth, a violent death is indicated. The problem is where to begin counting the 40 days in a night birth. In Valens’ era the “day” was not midnight to midnight, but rather sunset was the end of the day. If the birth is at night (but before midnight by our reckoning), Do we count that as the first day? Try simply multiplying 40 x 24 hours and adding that to the birth time, but there may be other ways to do this.

4. "Similarly also, when malefics happen to be upon the descendant or pre-descendant, they also produce violent death and causes of ailments and bad deaths."

Explanation: The “pre-descendant” is the 6th house, so if Saturn or Mars is in the 6th or 7th in the nativity, a violent death is indicated.

5. "And the eighth place from the Horoskopos (the Ascendant) also possesses the same power in relation to the causes of death..."

Explanation: The ruler of the 8th “destroys” the ruler of the first. There has to be some kind of connection probably by aspect, perhaps by mutual reception as well.

6. "...and similarly with the 8th place from the Lot of Fortune (Also known as the deadly place). It is necessary then, to examine upon what zoidion the Lot (of fortune) and its lord happen to be." For these zoidia the cause of death are shown ahead of time...

Explanation: The 8th place (sign) from the part of fortune is used the same way the 8th place from the Ascendant is used. These places are called “the deadly place” by Valens.

Does this work? Let’s try one. Remember, Valens used whole sign houses and no orbs to determine aspects. Anything in Leo is square anything in Taurus although there is no reason why an astrologer couldn’t test this with a quadrant house system, and out of sign aspects if he wanted to. I’ll stick with Valens’ methods for this initial effort.

Jayne Mansfield
April 19, 1933
9:11 AM +5 hrs
Lower Merion*, PA, USA

*From Solar Fire. Some biographies give Bryn Mawr, PA, a larger better known town only three miles away From Lower Merion Township Park PA. There are two Bryn Mawrs in PA however. Bryn Mawr-1 and Lower Merion are in Montgomery County; the other Bryn Mawr is in Allegheny County, several hundred miles distant.

For those too young to remember, Jayne Mansfield was a 1950s & 60s Hollywood sex symbol in the same mold, but not in the same league as Marilyn Monroe. She was killed in a car accident in 1967. It was and still is reported that she was decapitated, but that appears to be a grisly rumor that had as its basis the fact that she lost her wig on impact and a police photograph of the accident made it appear as though her head was severed. It was not, but it is a violent death nonetheless.

1. The pre-natal lunation (a full moon and an eclipse) was at 21 Virgo making Mercury the lord of the lunation. In the nativity Mercury is in Aries and therefore in aversion to the full Moon/eclipse. Mercury does not fall amiss being in the 10th sign, but it is noteworthy that Mercury is in sextile (by sign) to Saturn.

2. Mercury, lord of the pre-natal lunation is not opposed to the pre-natal full Moon.

3. The way I figured this on the 40th day after her birth (counting the birthday as “1”), the Moon was in Cancer all day. None of the required planets (Mercury, Mars, or Saturn) is in Cancer on that day.

4. There are no malefics in the 6th or 7th In the nativity

5. Saturn (lord of the 8th) and the Moon (lady of the 1st) are in the same sign in the 8th place in the nativity.

6. The lot of fortune falls at 5 Taurus. The deadly place is therefore, Sagittarius. Jupiter destroys Venus. They are not in aspect, but they are in aversion. Venus is combust in the sign of her detriment.

This gives us two, maybe three indicators of violent death. We could also note that Mercury, a bit of a troublemaker in Valens’ view, is square the ASC.

Now let’s apply this method to her solar return for the year 1967 cast for her birthplace. I don’t know that Valens ever did this or what follows it, but I thought it would be fun to look.

April 19, 1967
2:47:48 pm +5 hrs

The lord of the pre-natal lunation (eclipse) is still Mercury. Mercury is now in aversion to Virgo, the place of the eclipse.

Mercury is in the 8th house as is a debilitated Saturn. In addition Mercury is opposed to Mars.

The POF is at 8 Capricorn. The deadly place is Leo. The Sun destroys Saturn. Both are in Aries, but Saturn is not even under the beams, much less combust. Note Mars rules the radical 8th (death) and 3rd (short trips), indicating the kind of death. The south node is ominously in the 3rd place as well.

Finally I looked at the transits for the date and approximate time and place of death. I used 2:15 am and Biloxi, Mississippi, for the location. The accident occurred somewhere between Biloxi and New Orleans, a distance of about 90 miles. The time is, at best approximate. I’ve seen others.

Mercury, lord of the eclipse/lunation is in Cancer in aversion to the lunation. Mercury falls amiss in the 3rd sign and is in a tight aspect to Mars (17 minute orb).

Mercury is in the zoidion of the 40th day (Cancer).

There is a malefic, Mars in the 6th house (sign)

The first place is Taurus and the 8th is Sagittarius. Jupiter destroys Venus. They are both in Leo and in aversion to the pre-natal eclipse/lunation and in aspect to both malefics.

The lot of fortune in the death chart is at 12 Leo. The deadly place is Pisces. Jupiter destroys the Sun. They fall amiss and are in a mixed mutual reception. The Sun falls in the 3rd house of short journeys

None of this is overwhelming testimony (with the possible exception of the death chart), but it is still interesting. More work on other charts with better results was done by Curtis Manwaring, and David Strickler a few years back at this website: http://www.astrology-x-files.com/news/

I pulled up Mansfield at random. For whatever reason hers was the first violent death that was not a murder or suicide that came to mind.

Tom



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epicurious



Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 6
Location: Oregon

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:44 pm    Post subject: Basic questions Reply with quote

Tom,

How are you defining lunation for the following paragraph :

Quote:
1. "When the lord of the Conjunction or Whole Moon of the nativity should happen to be in aversion to the zoidion or should fall amiss while being witnessed by a malefic, it indicates violent death."

Explanation: If the lord or lady of the pre-natal lunation in the nativity is in a sign that is either adjacent or five signs away from the sign of the lunation OR if the lord or lady of the pre-natal lunation in the nativity is posited in house 2,3, 6, 8, 9, or 12 AND in aspect with a malefic, a violent death is indicated.


Are you defining lunation as New Moon or Full Moon, or more specifically, the pre-natal eclipse? And would this be the pre-natal eclipse closest to the date of birth?

Thank you for clarifying. Great job of presenting this.

Michael
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Tom
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Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Michael,

Thanks for writing. By "lunation" I meant either the full or new Moon that predates the birth whichever is closest to the birthdate. In Jayne Mansfield's case the pre-natal lunation was also an eclipse.

In addition I came across this bit of infomation; Valens used the word "witnessing" which I interpreted as an aspect. However I found information that may alter that a bit. It is possible that "witnessing," as used by Valens, means not any aspect but an aspect cast forward in the order of the signs. This is a "sinister" aspect (as opposed to dexter aspect computed against the order of the signs). I'll have to check and see if this changes anything about Mansfield's chart. I'm also going to look at her chart with a quadrant system (Placidus) and see if that changes anything.

Tom
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epicurious



Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Posts: 6
Location: Oregon

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:42 pm    Post subject: Hurling Rays vs. witnessing Reply with quote

Hi Tom,

I was reading http://www.astrology-x-files.com/news/assassinate.html and was reading the section under Andrew Cunanan.

Quote:
The Lot of Fortune is in Aquarius in the 5th. Mars squares the Lot of Fortune. The deadly place is the eighth sign from Fortune which is Virgo on the 12th. Saturn is the ruler of the Lot of Fortune and it is in the tenth house in Cancer (its sign of detriment) and it is in aversion to Aquarius. The ruler of the deadly place, Virgo, is Mercury in the 8th in Taurus. Mercury is conjunct the Mars, Saturn is hurling rays* at it from Cancer and Mercury is in aversion to Gemini, one of the signs it rules. Valens describes Aquarius destroyed by Virgo as having to do with death as a result of a wasting away of the insides, jaundice, by eating iron (is that like eating lead as in bullets?), dysentery and betrayal of a woman.


Later in the article he includes a list of definitions, including this for hurling rays

Quote:
Hurling rays: This is a term to describe a specific kind of aspect. Hurling rays occurs when a planet aspects a planet that is behind it in the order of the signs. Moon in Pisces hurls rays at Saturn in Sagittarius. Mars in Gemini hurls rays at Mercury in Aquarius. A planet having rays hurled at it is not considered to be a positive configuration, especially if the hurling planet is a malefic.


So, it appears that hurling rays is more of a dexter aspect, and witnessing is a sinister aspect.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 463

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Tom,

If ever you get the translations of Vettius Valens, do tell. I REALLY want to get my hands onto them. Valens' is the only ancient books that I still don't have. Anybody wish to sell?

I heard that Project Hindsight has stopped printing the translations...and they have come up with new collection of something that we have to subscribe (or pay more later) or something of the kind.
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Tom
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epicurious,

I read the same things, and I think you're right. But if I recall there was a great big "IF" attached to the explanation That means, to me, that we keep our minds and eyes open when deciding whether or not to accept a testimony.

Astrojin,

The way I understand it, Project Hindsight will sell its publications either as individual volumes, or all volumes in a subscription set. Obviously if you buy the whole subscription, you pay less per volume and I think it is significantly less, but you have to by them all at about six week intervals.

The first volume was due out in October, then that was switched to January and now its an any time now thing. I have no idea what's going on with them. Visit the website to get on the mailing list. If you're feeling flush and wish to spend some time in western Maryland, there is a week long conference on Hellenistic astrology given by Schmidt et al which looks fascinating, and all things considered not terribly expensive for all that you get, but one needs the time as well as the money to attend.

If you wish to hunt on the web, there are people who will sell Schmidt's original translations of Valens The new book supposedly has some changes, which are said to make this translation more accurate. Project Hindsight may have some leftovers. You'll have to look.

Good luck.

Tom

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deeptiman



Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 76
Location: São Paulo-SP brazil

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:19 pm    Post subject: Pre-natal Moon of Jane Mainsfield in Libra Reply with quote

Hello Tom,In this chart i see the pre-natal Moon as a Full-Moon at 20 Libra 13,because was the lunation prior to the birth.Therefore we have Mercury in Aries in opposition to this point,one of the indicators of violent death.
All the best
Gerson
_________________
"Life is a gift,enjoy"
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Draco



Joined: 27 Aug 2005
Posts: 176
Location: England.

Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Quote:
It was and still is reported that she was decapitated, but that appears to be a grisly rumor that had as its basis the fact that she lost her wig on impact and a police photograph of the accident made it appear as though her head was severed. It was not, but it is a violent death nonetheless.


Having a distinct morbid streak myself, I once read a book called 'Car Crash Culture', which detailed the deaths of people such as James Dean, Lady Di, Grace Kelly and Jayne Mansfield. In this book, grisly photographs were provided where available. I distinctly remember the police photograph of Jayne Mansfield's head in the road in front of the car where it had been decapitated by the windscreen and had tumbled along the road. This was no wig. You can clearly see that it is her head, because the photo is taken face on, and the image has always stayed with me, because it was so shocking to see that such a beauty should have her last photograph taken in such tremedously undignified and horrific circumstances. She was indeed decapitated, unless the photograph was fake, which I doubt it was.

It makes me wonder what Algol was up to in relation to her death.

Fascinating thread by the way.

Draco.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

From Draco:-
Quote:

It makes me wonder what Algol was up to in relation to her death.


Using paran methods of fixed stars (see Brady's Book of fixed stars) - the best way to study fixed stars (in my opinion!)

In her natal chart:-

Algol was setting as Mercury anticulminates (culminating on Nadir). The ancients would have warned her that her death (star setting = end of life) is somehow connected to decapitation (Algol) probably when travelling (connected to Mercury). Hence, the astrologer might tell her to take extra precaution when travelling.

The above delineation is extreme!
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Tom
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Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I distinctly remember the police photograph of Jayne Mansfield's head in the road in front of the car where it had been decapitated by the windscreen and had tumbled along the road. This was no wig.


Although I've never seen the photograph you refer to, the one usually cited in this case is a police photograph of the scene. No one involved in the accident, i.e. police,medical personnel, funeral director, etc claimed she was decapitated. In fact it was pretty much a settled issue that she was not decapitated until recently when one "investigator" said it was likely she was "scalped." The car she was riding in was a hardtop, but witnesses said it looked like a convertible after the accident. She was thrown from the car. I've never been able to put the decaptiation together with being thrown from the automobile. I suppose it's possible.

Algol does not have to mean decapitation and severe head injury would fit the symbolism nicely. Whether or not her head was actually severed, the Algol - Mercury paran works.

Tom
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talking about car accidents, I tried to see Princess Diana`s chart:

Criteria:
1 - Lord or lunation: saturn in the 2nd fall amiss, aspected by malefic mars

2 - mercury in cancer is opposed the lunation in capricorn, witnessed by both mars and saturn

3 - I´m not sure if I understood this completely, but in the 40th day saturn is in capricorn yet, so in the sign of lunation. If you mean the position of the moon in the 40th day, then mercury is presented in the zoidion (leo).

4 - nein, nothing, zero

5 - ruler of 8th place (moon) is in the same sign as the ruler of horoscope (jupiter)

6 - the lord of fortuna (sun) is in the 12th place from fortuna in the 8th place from the asc (cancer), not a good sign indeed ! Fortuna is being opposed by Jupiter, lord of 8th from fortuna. Oppositions to fortuna are associated with destruction of phisical body.

meaning that, if we were valens we would have predicted a violent death to Diana (with no space for "guessing" or "intuition") which none of hundreds of modern astrologers did.

Or we could say "stick to the classics, people" !
:-)
Yuzuru
I will do next the chart of Kennedy and Bush to see if the presidencial death cycle will stick Wink
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 5:48 pm    Post subject: kennedy Reply with quote

In Kennedy chart:
pre lunation (new moon) in 29 taurus

1 - venus is amiss in the 9th, in aversion to the zoidion, but is not aspected by mars or saturn, although it is under sun beans (sun is an malefic by conjunction)

2 - mercury is opposing the natal full moon in scorpio and is conj malefic mars, sextile malefic saturn.

3 - none of the malefics or mercury are in the same sign as the moon in the 40th day

4 - nein

5 - venus is ruler of both the 1st and 8th places. venus also aspects SAturn, ruler by exaltation of horoscope

6 - Fortuna in 29 Capr, Saturn is closely opposing fortuna, which as said before has connections to death... The ruler of 8th from fortuna doesn´t aspect fortuna or its ruler.

That case wasn`t so loudly clear as Diana, but I think it is still pretty effective
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those who are William Lilly's sticklers may want to read Ken Gillman's analysis of Lilly's indicators of violent death (15):

Both lights in violent signs, not both in the same sign, which do not aspect each other, indicate a violent death.

Both lights with violent fixed stars, within 5º, especially if Asc-ruler and 8th-ruler are also conjunct either of the lights, or if either of the lights is ruler of the Asc or 8th house.

Either the Sun or Moon is in a violent sign and the other is with a violent fixed star and one of the malefics aspects either the Sun, Moon or 8th-ruler.

Both lights conjunct, square or opposite Mars and Saturn, with one of the lights and a malefic in a violent sign or with a violent fixed star.

Both lights afflicted by one malefic and the other malefic impeded or in a violent sign and having dignity in the 8th.

Mars conjunct Saturn in an angle, especially the MC, in a violent sign.

Mars conjunct, square, opposite or MR Saturn in any signs in any house if one of them is "challenging power in the 8th."

A malefic in the 8th and the 8th-ruler afflicted by a malefic from a violent sign, with one or both lights afflicted or in a violent sign.

8th-ruler in Asc in his Fall or Detriment or in a violent sign or with violent fixed stars, and a light afflicted by a malefic.

8th-ruler in his Fall or Detriment afflicted by a malefic, and a light or the other malefic in a violent sign.

Asc-ruler in a violent sign or afflicted by a malefic, and the dispositor of the appropriate light (Sun in diurnal, Moon in nocturnal) also in a violent sign or afflicted.

Asc-ruler is a malefic and is in the 8th afflicted.

Asc-ruler in 8th in a violent sign and square or opposite a malefic.

Asc-ruler or 8th-ruler is dispositor of a light, in detriment or fall, and a malefic afflicting the other light in a violent sign.

Moon in 7th in a sign containing violent fixed stars and square or opposite the Sun, or a malefic is in the 8th or ruling the 8th, and both are in violent signs.

If either Venus or Jupiter is in the Asc and the other in the 8th house – death will not be sudden or violent.

http://www.astrodatabank.com/AS/ASWhoWillSurvive.htm
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