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Interpretation of house rulers
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:29 am    Post subject: Interpretation of house rulers Reply with quote

Hello all,

Is there a general NEAT method of differentiating the ruler of Xth house in Yth house and ruler of Yth house in Xth house?

For example is there a difference between the ruler of 2nd in 7th and ruler of 7th in 2nd? I have read many natal delineations over this and although there are subtle differences, there is no general rule for it.

A very simplified delineation would be:-
Ruler of 2nd in 7th = my money goes to my spouse
Ruler of 7th in 2nd = my spouse comes to my money? (doesn't make sense!). It's probably better to delineate that marriage/intimate relationship is not profitable to the native as the ruler of 7th is in aversion to the axis of 1/7 (among other things). But this has no "correlation" with ruler of 2nd in the 7th.

Perhaps there really isn't any general rule?
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If there was such a "neat" way, it would only be a cookbook delineation. If that is what you're interested in try The A to Z Horoscope Maker and Delineator by Llewellyn George (the older the edition the better). That work gives a quick delineation for every combination. The idea for this sort of thing to be included in a book comes from Luke Broughton's The Elements of Astrology (1899). Facsimile versions are available.

Examples:

Ruler of the Second posited in the Seventh:


Quote:
Gain by marriage, contracts, businesses and dealin with others, especially the opposite sex. If afflicted: trouble in unions and through open enemies, competition and theft.


Ruler of the seventh in the 2nd

Quote:
Gain by marriage. Afflicted: loss of money through unions; partnerships, contracts, lawsuits, public enemies. Loss through opposite sex; death of a partner and public enemies.


The above are taken from the 1981 edition. The reasoning behind the delineations is pretty obvious.

Tom
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanx Tom.

I don't think I like the book. I have it tucked somewhere...

It was useful when I first studied astrology though.

And when you read the sample delineations you shared with us, it doesn't really make a distinction between 2nd in 7th and 7th in 2nd.
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Andrew



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea for these delineations dates back to 1658: see "The Doctrine of Nativities" (Genethlialogia) by John Gadbury:

Of the Lord of the Second in any of the Twelve Houses of Heaven:

Quote:
But if he shall be posited in the seventh House, the Native shall be at great expences, by reason of Wars, Quarrels and Controversies. Sometimes he shall receive Loss by the meanes of Women, his wife in particular, and often from Partners, and those he deals withal. And shall suffer much by Thieves and Robbers.


Of the Position of the Lord of the seventh:

Quote:
The Lord of the seventh in the second House well dignified, the Native is enriched by a Wife; but if ill dignified, she consumes and wastes much of his Estate; it being the eighth House from the second, he will see the death of his Wife, and also of his publick Enemies. Nevertheless, he will suffer much damage from or by reason of publick Enemies and Thieves, and will have many strifes and contentions for, and by reason of riches, and the goods of fortune.


I would add that if you wish to learn traditional natal astrology you can do no better than Gadbury. IMHO of course.

Andrew
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And when you read the sample delineations you shared with us, it doesn't really make a distinction between 2nd in 7th and 7th in 2nd.


There isn't much difference at all. In fact the only difference I saw was that ruler of 7 in 2, if afflicted, means death of partner or death of public enemies.

I've been told, but I haven't seen it for myself, that editions of A to Z prior to 1970 were the best ones and that one published about 1920 was considered the best of them all.

I looked up the same 2 in Broughton's Elements.


Quote:
Lord of the second in the 12 houses
...

If in the 7th house, the native is likely to gain an estate through his wife or by partnership, by trading or dealing with others; the native's wife or husband may die and leave them property; but if the lord of the ascendant is afflicted in the 7th, there is danger of being swindled out of it, even if left to them.


Lord of the seventh in the 12 houses

If in the second house, the native will marry for love rather than for money, and there is great danger that his wife will not live to be old, and he may marry several times. The native's enemies will not live long, or he is likely to be robbed or in some way swindled by women; if the lord of the 7th house is an evil planet, he will often be cheated or swindled, if not robbed.


Talk about accentuating the negative! I don't know where all the swindling comes from. I think the death parts are due to the 2nd being the 8th of the 7th. This is the first time I've read these two, in Broughton, in this fashion and note, for the record that in my chart Lords 1and 2 are in 7. No death, yet, but I sure got swindled in divorce court, remarried and benefitted from that. Lord 1 is not seriously afflicted in my chart, but it is peregrine.

I like Broughton's take better than Llwellyn's.

Tom
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sasha_i



Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 288
Location: Bucuresti

Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In this issue I would make some delimitation:

1. I don’t think it is useful to combine without any prior conditions two houses. So I wouldn’t link the 7th house with 2th, just because the ruler of the 7th is in the 2th.
Why?
In my opinion the houses should be analyze with a reference point (in our case 1th house). After all we are talking about the 7 th and 2th.

2. More likely I would accept this kind of technique in another form. I would create from the cusp of the 7th a tourning point, and the 2th cusp would be the 8 th house form it. So in this case 7th would be a reference point. But also in this case I’m not so sure about the logical approach of the problem.

3. I would also take in consideration the aspects of zoidia, and also the aspects between planets. And consequently I would link house in accordance with the zoidia aspects, or planets aspects. For example there is no doubt that opposite house do have some familiarities.
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To Andrew:-
Thank you. I will start rereading my Gadbury (which is also tucked somewhere!) and see whether I can make a general rule of it...

To sasha_i
Thanx for the input. If you read Andrew's response (the quote he took from Gadbury) Gadbury also included/implied "derived" house delineation i.e. ruler 7th in 2nd is also ruler of 7th in the 8th from 7th.

Now this is interesting. I have always (well most of time) found ruler of 7th in 2nd means bad for union (with ruler of 7th undignified). When I was still into "modern" astrology, I could not find a reason for this (as the 2nd is succeedent not cadent). When one of my earliest students asked me, I gave the reason that you wouldn't want your significator of marriage to be in the house of substance. I also pinched a concept of Vedic (I didn't know then that we have a similar rule in Medieval astrology) that ruler of 7th in 2nd means that the ruler of 7th is in the 8th of 7th (enemy of 7th!). Later, I found in Hellenistic astrology that a ruler of house in the houses that are in aversion to it is considered bad.

Thank you all.
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TonyLouis



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
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Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morin gives some examples that may be helpful (from Book 21):

"when the ruler of the 10th is in the 12th, the profession of the native will be the cause of his misfortune"

"if the ruler of the 3rd is in the 10th (8th from the 3rd), it indicates the death of brothers"

"the ruler of the 12th in the 8th foretells that an illness will be the cause of death"

"the ruler of the 8th in the 7th foretells the native will die, not by the action of the wife herself, but through the wife as some indirect cause or agent"
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would add that if you wish to learn traditional natal astrology you can do no better than Gadbury.


I would really love to follow up your suggestion Andrew but I am not aware of the book being in print anywhere these days. I believe Christopher Warnock has a facsimile version as part of his traditional CD library. However, if anyone knows where to track down a paper copy I would be most interested in getting the book.

Mark


Last edited by Mark on Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Tony,

Quote:
Morin gives some examples that may be helpful (from Book 21):

"when the ruler of the 10th is in the 12th, the profession of the native will be the cause of his misfortune ''


I know this is a general discussion but as I have this placement natally I cannot avoid a bit of personalised feedback.

I don't feel my profession has caused me personal misfortune..but I have worked in an area ( homelessnes/charity work) where the people I assist often fall into very unfortunate situations.

My MC ruler ( Saturn) is in face in Pisces in the 12th and disposed by a strong angular Jupiter ( domicile ruler) which trines the MC and Venus ( exaltation ruler) . In addition Saturn is of course in its joy in the 12th. Its also on the fixed star Fomalhaut.

I hope this helps to illustrate why these 'cookbook' descriptions always need to be set in context.

Incidentally, are you the same Tony Louis who translated book 18 of Morin's Astrologica Gallica and wrote the book Horary Astrology: Plain and Simple? Welcome to skyscript. Its great to have you here!
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Yuriy



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 426

Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="TonyLouis"]Morin gives some examples that may be helpful (from Book 21):
"if the ruler of the 3rd is in the 10th (8th from the 3rd), it indicates the death of brothers"

"the ruler of the 12th in the 8th foretells that an illness will be the cause of death"

"the ruler of the 8th in the 7th foretells the native will die, not by the action of the wife herself, but through the wife as some indirect cause or agent"[/quote]

Hmm…so, what is the best placement for normal, natural death?
Then, if ruler of 10th is in 8th - means work hard until the last day of the life?
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TonyLouis



Joined: 03 Oct 2006
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="MarkC"]Hello Tony,

Quote:
Morin gives some examples that may be helpful (from Book 21):

"when the ruler of the 10th is in the 12th, the profession of the native will be the cause of his misfortune '' ...

I don't feel my profession has caused me personal misfortune..but I have worked in an area ( homelessnes/charity work) where the people I assist often fall into very unfortunate situations. ...

Incidentally, are you the same Tony Louis who translated book 18 of Morin's Astrologica Gallica and wrote the book Horary Astrology: Plain and Simple? Welcome to skyscript. Its great to have you here!


Hi Mark,

Yes. I did translate Morin's Book 18 and wrote a book on horary.
The examples from Morin were intended to show his manner of thinking about delineating the ruler of one house falling in another. Morin seems to have in mind a causal link, that is, if the ruler of house A falls in house B, then somehow A will be a cause of what B signifies. Ruler of the 10th in the 12th could mean that your career will be a cause of your 12th house misfortune. Generally it means that your career involves you in 12th house matters, as apparently it does. Morin had a negative view of the 12th as a "bad" house. Partly this was based on his experience of his own 12th house planets.

He viewed the 8th house as signifying the death of the native, so if another house ruler fell in the 8th, the other house showed where the native's death was coming form. If the ruler of the 8th fell in another house, Morin viewed the link not as causal but rather as associative. For example, the ruler of the 8th in the 7th = somehow a wife or partner will be associated with the native's death. But if the ruler of the 7th falls in the 8th, the wife or partner is directly responsible. Or if the ruler of the 6th falls in the 8th, the butler did it, etc.

For example, in Janis Joplin's chart (19 JAN 1943, 9:45 AM CWT, 29N54, 93W56) Venus rules her Libra 8th cusp and falls in 14 Aquarius in her 12th house. She died of an accidental heroin overdose. Her death was associated with drug abuse.

Tony
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting technique to see the cause of death. I guess the general principle would work for other houses too.

I looked at Ernest Hemmingway’s chart, July 21, 1899, 8:00 AM, Oak Park, Illinois, 41°N53'06'', 087°W47'04''. You have the 8th house ruler Mars in the 1st house and using Morin’s technique, we see that the cause of death is himself, and he was a suicide. Mars also is the planet of iron, guns, knives, gunpowder, etc., and Hemmingway shot himself.

I looked at Marilyn Monroe’s chart, June 1, 1926, 9:30 am, Los Angeles, California, 34°N03'08'', 118°W14'34''. Her 8th house ruler Jupiter is in the 7th house, which according to Morin shows that death comes accidentally or incidentally from a husband or partner. There have been suspicions about her involvement with both John and Robert Kennedy. This is difficult because I’m not so sure if these are just rumors, but the Morin’s technique does confirm the rumors.

I’ll have to look at some other charts but the above two were about the only ones I had handy where the person is already dead.

So I looked at my own chart, and my 8th house ruler is Jupiter in Sagittarius in the 8th house. So what does that mean? Don’t pull any punches. We all have to go sometime.
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Mark F
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark,

Unless there are other mitigating factors in your chart, havng a benefic in the 8th usually means a peaceful death. Look to what Scorpio rules to find the manner, if you're interested. To be less than delicate, if colon cancer or prostate cancer runs in your family, get frequent checkups. We all have to go sometime, but there is no point in rushing the inevitable.

I thought there was birth data on this forum, but there isn't so I didn't copy down Steve Irwin's birth data that was shown at my astrology club's meeting this afternoon. What I recall is this: he had Aquarius rising with Mercury just above the ASC and Mars just below it. Scorpio was on the MC. Having the ruler of the house of death in the ASC is an indication that the native somehow particpates in the manner of his death. This doesn't always mean suicide, but Irwin did take risks, and this last one cost him his life.

Mars ruling the MC and being in the first is an indication of honors in the lifetime.

Tom
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Tom,

Quote:
Look to what Scorpio rules to find the manner, if you're interested.


I am not clear why one would look to Scorpio in Mark's chart if his 8th house ruler ( Jupiter) is in Sag in the 8th house. Is this a general death indicator relating to Scorpio's association with death? Or does it relate to Scorpio probably being 12th house from the 8th in this chart?

More generally I am warming to this approach. There is certainly lots to explore here. It kind of reminds me of horary with the focus on planets status as house rulers as well as house placement.

Mark
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