skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

The Zoidion and the Dodekatemorion concepts

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Hekate



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 14
Location: Hellas

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:57 pm    Post subject: The Zoidion and the Dodekatemorion concepts Reply with quote

Geminus Rhodius in his only surviving work, "Introduction to Phaenomena" (1st century before Dark Age) lays out the definitions of two of the most important astrological conceptions. The Zoidion (sign) and the Dodekatemorion (the one twelfth).

"With two ways the Zoidion is defined. First as a space or locus into which some stars are included. Second as a group of stars idolized by place and similarity of form....The Dodekatemorion is the 1/12th of the Zodiac circle. All Dodekatemoria are equal and 30 degree long. Zodia are contained (katasterismos) into the Dodekatemoria....they are not identified with them. A Zoidion can be larger than its Dodekatemorion, like in the case of Virgo or smaller, like in the case of Cancer."

Ptolemy and Hephaestion, when they talk of the Zoidia, they begin their texts with the phrase "the Dodekatemorion of Aries is...", "the Dodekatemorion of Taurus is...." and so on. The Dodekatemorion concept was developed so that boundaries between the zodiacal asterisms could be drawn, since the zodiacal asterisms cover each other and no clear boundaries exist on the sky. It was developed for another reason also, to project a mathematical/geometrical harmonic division into the Zodiac Circle according to the pythagorean numbers' and shapes' philosophical concepts. Planets sometimes form certain geometrical shapes, triangles, squares etc and it is through these mathematical/geometrical properties that aquire their astrological properties.

Dodekatemoria are further divided into 3 Decans each. The Decan division system comes from Aegypt. Each Decan has a specific name relevant to a deity or a deity's property.

The 1st Decan of Aries, are the first 10 degrees of the Aries Dodekatemorion. Not the first 10 degrees of the Aries constellation (zoidion). So when Vettius Valens for example, writes that the vernal point is located into the 1st Decan of Aries he means that it is located into the first 10 degrees of the Aries Dodekatemorion - this was the standard division method back then.

I am writing all these because, many astrologers, wanting to justify the tropical system, they claim that although precession was discovered, the hellenistic astrologers made no corrections. Well there was no need to. The vernal point passed the Dodekatemorion line between Aries and Pisces sometime after +300 and not earlier. Corrections would have been made if christianity hadn't occured.

Geminus Rhodius makes it clear that corrections were made into the older observations if they were not reflecting the current sky positions. Geminus himself proceeds to correct the zoidion syzygiai (sign conjuctions). Ptolemy names the syzygiai "signs that behold each other"

Of Signs which Behold each other and Signs of Equal Power.

Again they say that the parts which are equally removed from the same tropical sign, whichever it may be, are of equal power, because when the sun comes into either of them the days are equal to the days, the nights to the nights, and the lengths of their own hours are the same. These also are said to "behold" one another both for the reasons stated and because each of the pair rises from the same part of the horizon and sets in the same part.
from Ptolemy's - Tetrabiblos


Geminus mentions that originally the syzygiai were as following:
Gemini-Leo
Taurus-Virgo
Aries-Libra
Pisces-Scorpio
Sagittarius-Aquarius

Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn do not form syzygiai.

Then he proceeds to explain that these syzygiai are no longer valid because the summer solstice point (Geminus used the summer solstice point and not the vernal point for his calculations) no longer was in the Cancer but between Cancer and Gemini. Then he corrects the syzygiai to reflect the stellar reality as following:
Cancer-Gemini
Capricorn-Sagittarius
Taurus-Leo
Aries-Virgo
Libra-Pisces
Scoprio-Aquarius

I wrote all these, to show that the hellenistic astrologers had the habit of always taking in account whatever the sky showed them and corrected older observational data if it was no longer valid. This is why they actually (and accidentally) discovered the precession. Geminus was a student of Poseidonius the Stoic, who had opened a School in Rhodes. Hipparchus (who is credited with discovering precession) also studied there and was concurrent with Geminus.

Now, the whole tropical/sidereal issue will sometime eventually come into a solution. I have done a thorough research on the system that was used during the hellenistic period and what I found out favours neither the contemporary tropical method nor the contemporary sidereal method. Why?

Tropical method is seasonally aligned but lacks stellar alignment. Sidereal method is stellar aligned but lacks seasonal alignment. In the hellenistic period, the system that was used was both seasonal- and stellar- aligned. We do not have this today. Both systems we use today are not correct from the hellenistic point of view.

Furthermore, there is one more problem that makes the development of a seasonal/stellar system very difficult. But I think I bored you enough for today, so we may discuss this at another time. Smile
_________________
A NEW ORDER IS EMERGING THROUGH A MILLION THUNDERS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(1st century before Dark Age)

Yes, I did laugh at that one. But I think your bias against Christianity often mars your reasoning.

Quote:
I am writing all these because, many astrologers, wanting to justify the tropical system, they claim that although precession was discovered, the hellenistic astrologers made no corrections. Well there was no need to. The vernal point passed the Dodekatemorion line between Aries and Pisces sometime after +300 and not earlier. Corrections would have been made if christianity hadn't occured.


I’m not against the view that the politics of early Christianity may have affected astrological development, but where is the evidence to support that comment? You can hardly deny that the issue was a unique problem of the Hellenistic era because the tropical zodiac only began to emerge around the 6th century BC and by the first centuries of the Christian Era (Dark Ages, whatever…), it had become a real problem that needed to be resolved at an astronomical and philosophical level.

Quote:
Now, the whole tropical/sidereal issue will sometime eventually come into a solution.


Would that be in about 22,000 years when the two zodiacs realign? Smile

Quote:
I have done a thorough research on the system that was used during the hellenistic period and what I found out favours neither the contemporary tropical devision nor the contemporary sidereal division. Why?


Because at that time the two zodiacs roughly coincided, so how could it favour one or the other?

Quote:
Tropical division is seasonally aligned but lacks stellar alignment. Sidereal division is stellar aligned but lacks seasonal alignment. In the hellenistic period, the system that was used was both seasonal- and stellar- aligned. We do not have this today. Both systems we use today are not correct from the hellenistic point of view.


And at the same time both are correct by it, but we do have a fragmented system and I believe it is very important for astrologers to understand the nature of the divisions. The article that I wrote about the origin of the Zodiac explores some of the issues that are central to this problem. Though I say so myself, I think it is a good reference for the discussion.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/zodiachistory.html

The way that I have reconciled the problem for myself, is in respecting the seasonal alignment that the tropical zodiac offers – to me, the seasonal cycles lie at the very heart of astrology – and also incorporating the stellar alignments through recognising the influence and effect of powerful fixed stars.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
graelhaven



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 82

Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:50 pm    Post subject: notes... Reply with quote

Well Etaki and I have one thing in comon then, for i decry the unwashed christian fanatics of the early part of the christian era as monsters and destructors of knowledge. And further I find that organized religion is general is merely a method of contrtoling people. Not religion, but organized religion. I get along just fine with the gods, I just dont like the fanatics they hang with on occaision. sorta like the crazed fans of the beattles or billy idol of a few decades ago... real weirdos. Wink

As to Tropical verses Sidreal, one of my friends Paula Moore, noted for her anal attention to detail (just one of the many reasons I adore her) noted, that if it works, it doesn't matter that it has slid. And it seems to work. So either we adjusted our definitions as the charts slid, or the charts definitions slid with us, But, as it seems to work, one or the other must have occured. (sherlock holmes, if you eliminate all the other possibilities, then the remaining theory, however unlikely, must be.)

Now I have another theory about astrology, that is somewhat ...silly?...I think if we ever figure it all out, and it works as wonderfully as we think it does, then we will self destruct as that was the entire purpose of the experiment to begin with. (a Douglas Adams approach I confess)

MissB
ps Paula does incredible art work! the wheel on the cover of our Web-zine is a table top she painted, those are celtic dragons intertwined!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Hekate



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 14
Location: Hellas

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
(1st century before Dark Age)

Yes, I did laugh at that one. But I think your bias against Christianity often mars your reasoning.


It is actually orthodox christianity that I am against. Sorry for not clarifying this from the beginning.

Please come to Grece. Stay for one month. Meet the orthodox christians, a unique virus that combines the fatality of the Aids disease, of the empola virus and of the black plague in a unique way (the catholics were smart enough to get rid of them almost a thousand years ago). If a strong desire for killing them all does not develop in you I give you my word I will never astrologise again . Seriously. Evil or Very Mad


Deb wrote:

I’m not against the view that the politics of early Christianity may have affected astrological development, but where is the evidence to support that comment?


Astrology developed according to and within the polytheistic philosophy system of reference. There is an indissoluble bond between basic astrological conceptions and polytheism. A totally different cosmology would require a totally different astrological system but cannot produce one if the different cosmology is not Hylozoistic, if it is not based into Logos conception and many other things. Want even more evidence?

A very popular expression that was used in mainland Hellas among mathematicians, philosophers and astrologers was "save the phaenomena". This expression meant that any theory had to be well reasoned but most necesarily it had to be in accordance with the celestial phaenomena. For example the epicycle theory that tried to explain irregular planet orbits was an attempt to "save the phaenomena". In the surviving work of Geminus Rhodius and of Hipparchus (commentary on Aratus' Phaenomena poem), we find evidence that older observations were being corrected in order to reflect the current stellar reality. This was a scientific requirement for any serious scientist of the time.

Had polytheism not had to retreat because of early christianity, they would have corrected the zodiac method, they would have kept the sidereal alignment without losing touch with the important seasonal alignment. It was the way they thought back then. Because of the Logos conception - everything had to be accordin to Logos (to analogy). They would "save the phaenomena" again. But christianity had to come those times - and all these had to stop for some centuries.

Check the differences between Ptolemy, Hephaestion, Valens etc. and Lilly or other later western astrologers. The basic conceptions forgotten or mixed up, transfer of properties occurs with no sound reasoning, mathematical and geometrical pythagorean principles that also are incorporated into hellenistic Astrology, are missing. Would you consider this to be an advance to Astrology or a distortion?

I do not blame the medieval astrologers - they did their best, taking in account the circumstances of medieval Europe and the lack of texts and useful sources. And to be honest, even I, like Lilly. What he did was remarkable, in those circumstances. Had he or any of the medieval astrologers known and dared to speak of the polytheistic philosophy that was the frame-of-referenc for astrology, it is certain that they would have been burned alive or at least severely prosecuted.

Today we do not have these circumstances. Tons of texts are available and noone is burned for being a polytheist. Astrology can finally advance...at last (about time too).


Deb wrote:

You can hardly deny that the issue was a unique problem of the Hellenistic era because the tropical zodiac only began to emerge around the 6th century BC and by the first centuries of the Christian Era (Dark Ages, whatever…), it had become a real problem that needed to be resolved at an astronomical and philosophical level.


Hellenistic era is from 2nd century before Dark Age until 6th century after DA. The reason tropical system emerged after the end of the hellenistc period is because this is what the christians found and copied (although it had begun to lose its validity because it was not anymore according to the celestial phaenomena). Mathematics and geometry was nonexistent among those early christians, these sciences were "of the divil", astrology was "of the divil", medicine was "of the divil", philosophy was "of the divil". Until catholics finally gained their freedom from those madmen that resided in mainland Hellas, there was not a possible way to resolve anything at an astronomical or philosophical level.

And within just two centuries after this seperation, Renaissance begins in Europe. Christians of the Europe, want to learn. They like the Hellenic and Roman literature. They like art, music, they paint both christian paintings and hellenic and roman mythological paintings and they never try to mix these two up, they never claim that the western christianity is the evolution of hellenic polytheism (or persian, or roman, or aegyptian).

While in this dreadful Eastern Roman Empire (that nowadays is called "Byzantine Empire", claiming the name from the ancient city of Byzantion, a colony of the people of Megara, near Athens. Byzantion was completely destroyed by Constantine, to build Constantinople, the New Rome) nothing like this happened. Don't you wonder why?.......

Deb wrote:


Quote:
Now, the whole tropical/sidereal issue will sometime eventually come into a solution.


Would that be in about 22,000 years when the two zodiacs realign? Smile


LOL. Hopefully not. There is a way to do this a little earlier than this time. Solution I have come up with but needs a lot of help from any other serious Astrologer, with plenty of time to spend on boring research and masochist enough to strain their brains for judgement desicions. A LOT. And if you want to hear about it let me know - this needs a really loooooooooong post to write and plenty of coffee.

Deb wrote:


And at the same time both are correct by it, but we do have a fragmented system and I believe it is very important for astrologers to understand the nature of the divisions. The article that I wrote about the origin of the Zodiac explores some of the issues that are central to this problem. Though I say so myself, I think it is a good reference for the discussion.


I have read this article, it is a very good article. You could also take a look into the Orphica tradition - the Hymns are interesting from the astrologer point of view. Noone knows today how old these are. Some say it is around -1200. This is a careless statement, in my opinion. It is before Homeric and Hesiodean traditions, and way before the Trojan war. A well known greek astronomer back in the 60's, an academic man with tons of paper titles and respected positions, published a research that places the Orphica either in -1.160 or -11.160 (I am not sure of the exact dates, I am writing this from memory) because of a specific stellar aspect described in those hymns. I do not remember the details now, but if you want I will sent you some translation of his theory. Personally I don't know if the Orhpica are that old, I would place them during the rise of Minoan culture, sometime between -3000 and -2000.

Deb wrote:


The way that I have reconciled the problem for myself, is in respecting the seasonal alignment that the tropical zodiac offers – to me, the seasonal cycles lie at the very heart of astrology – and also incorporating the stellar alignments through recognising the influence and effect of powerful fixed stars.


Seasonal alignment is very very important. The reason I begun all this work in trying to make a system like the hellenistic, is because of the importance of season cycles. I could not agree completely with the contemporary sidereal method - something large is missing there. On the other hand, sidereal alignment is also important especially because of the Logos. There has to be analogy between the sky and the astrological charting. Astro-Logy as its very name tells us, it is about the Logos of the Stars and the Ideas they emit and how this Logos applies in the earthean system of reference. Also, the lack of sidereal alignment is a back door for the critics of Astrology and I do not intent to leave any back doors open for them - at least concerning my part.

Fortunately the fixed stars are kind enough to remain in their relative positions for hundreds of thousands of years. Cool
_________________
A NEW ORDER IS EMERGING THROUGH A MILLION THUNDERS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
i decry the unwashed christian fanatics of the early part of the christian era as monsters and destructors of knowledge


Oh all early civilisations were guilty of being monsters and destructors of knowledge if that knowledge didn’t perpetuate their own religious/political views.

Stepping aside from the astrological perspective here, I’ve placed a note in the Philosophy forum about the need to demonstrate a respectful attitude to other people’s views that partly applies here. Also, a reminder from the forum guidelines:

Quote:
Expressions of your personal political views and biases may be a relevant part of any post you make concerning mundane astrology and world-events. However, most readers are looking for astrological reasoning, so where it is necessary to express political or social opinions please remember that this is an astrology site and try to restrain your passions to comments that fall into an appropriate astrological context.


Keep it light, keep it tight.
Ekati - will say a prayer to Jesus tonight to help you over your frustrations
Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hekate



Joined: 28 Oct 2003
Posts: 14
Location: Hellas

Posted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

....and see the "true light"? Laughing Laughing Laughing

Why do you want to disturb my peaceful sleep girl?
_________________
A NEW ORDER IS EMERGING THROUGH A MILLION THUNDERS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
graelhaven



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 82

Posted: Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

=) and I could ask Inanna to help you see the true light, but its against my religious beliefs to interfere with the enlightenment of others. Wink MissB

oh and the "unwashed christian fanatics" was a quote by Anne McCaffrey from "the ship who searched"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Traditional (& Ancient) Techniques All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated