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I`m forever coming across natal delineations of the Neptune - Pluto sextile that was in effect in the late 40s and early 50s depending on the orbs used.
And much later than that thanks, Thomas!!! I have a Neptune/Pluto sextile and I was born way after the early fifties. :-T

In fact, it has been in effect on and off since the 40's, depending on orbs and is still in effect now. So, yes, your point is a good one. Most people alive today have this aspect. What sort of possible effect can it have on personal charts. Yet, many astrologers insist on personalising them.

17
Not everyone has a personal planet affecting them, and in such cases they are purely generational and like any planet have no bearing on the individual where they do hit a personal planet the traits of those outer planet archetypes certainly do come into effect. I have mars, neptune. Equally I have mercury in the 12th which could go some way to explain my often times flakey behaviour but I don't think so as it makes a tight aspect to saturn. I also have pluto, uranus, venus opp chiron and there is nothing traditional in the chart to explain the pain I experience in that area unless you define saturn in aquarius which if we use tight orbs makes an aspect to nothing.

I most definitely have wound and have healed in those areas and take relationship break ups as though world war three has commenced reacting with shock and surprise. It's the most hellish aspect of my personality and I soooo wish i could agree. In my work I'm so blessed in being able to access people birth data and talk about their experiences and I have seen countless people with similar aspects including other astrologers who react in the same way. I don't think the outer planets can be ignored.

Mind you I think of France and crimes of passion and pistols at dawn type behaviour and that was before Pluto was discovered so...Gosh good example that Tom, I'm thinking of the Easy Rider film as I reflect on road rage in America! I guess my mars neptune would site such an example.

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Tom wrote:Hi guys,

[...] If there is mundane significance to the outers, let someone demonstrate it and not just claim it. Until then I think we`re far better served by emphasizing the 7 classical planets.

Tom
Just wanted to mention something I have observed about Uranus.

After being exposed to horary and traditional astrology, I don't buy the "astrological alphabet" theories I was taught by modern astrologers, nor will I ever believe that the outer planets rule anything. Associations I can buy, but rulership? No way.

I tend to consider astrology in a much more visual, immediate manner than I used to. If something significant happens, I look at a local chart for that moment to see what is angular or otherwise prominent. The local chart is, after all, a sort of snapshot of conditions at a given time, and what's prominent (especially angular planets and stars) is what's happening, right?

So anyway, I have observed that Uranus is (at least, every time I have looked) on the ASC or MC when I or someone I know is taking off in a plane. My hubby and I did some flying back and forth across the country a while back, and I had an opportunity to check it out. If I was flying, I would note the takeoff time and run the chart later. If hubby was flying, we'd talk on the cell phone until they made him shut it off just before takeoff. Every time I looked, Uranus was smack on an angle, usually the asc.

Another thing I've noticed is that Uranus tends to be angular or prominent in the charts of people who are strongly associated with computers. Bill Gates (Uranus a few degrees from the asc in his 1st house) is one famous example, and Steve Jobs (one of Apple's founders) is another. He has Uranus conjunct Jupiter and trine his chart ruler Saturn (Mercury is also conjunct his AQU ASC) near the MC. And I have seen several other charts where people who work strictly with or on computers or software (developers, techs, etc) have Uranus either conjunct the MC or aspecting a planet near the MC.

I thought is was worth noting, at any rate.
Sharyn

19
hmm.
I'm just watching a harrowing documentary on Psychopathic Narcissist Warren Jeffs and his merry band of polygmists.

I've just done a flat chart of his natal. He has to have neptune rising surely.

Sure enough all the personals hit all the buttons for the outer planet, Venus in aspect to Uranus, Mars in aspect to pluto and jupiter, Moon Uranus, He really is quite twisted, believes blacks and jews a filth. I've just heard a few recordings of his voice and he is really hypnotic.

I know the traditionalists would argue that his ritual and systemic abuse of children of both sexes could be saturnine but it feels far more akin to the Pluto energy to me. Plus by now he must have Pluto on an important angle progressed - running from the law, hiding being undercover, subversive preaching and all that being exposed as a serial pedophile.

20
Sharyn:

I would agree that Uranus on an angle is significant, but I would consider that as using Uranus more like a fixed star than a planet. I would disagree with the idea that Uranus has anything to do with computers. Computers are calculation and communication devices and fit Mercury to a "T" and you noted Steve Jobs has Mercury on the ASC.

Skippy

There are a lot of people who agree with you that Pluto is connected with sexual abuse. I'm even open to the suggestion. But sex abuse quite obviously existed long before 1930, Pluto's discovery date, and Mars and Venus can be used to spot sexual abuse or abberation. Ironically, for all my Pluto abuse, of the three outer planets it seems to me, superficially at least, to be the one outer planet that pops up where one might expect it to.

Tom

21
Tom,
Yeah, the feeling of a fixed star makes sense. Dunno about the computer thing. I know you're quite right about Mercury fitting computers, tho.

You know, it seems to me that the outer planets have more to do with a collective thing. What I mean is, since they've been on our radar, the world is a lot "smaller" and maybe they all (Uranus, Neptune and Pluto) have more to do with the consciousness of the whole planet rather than just our immediate surroundings. We communicate with each other through motion pictures and cable TV, the Internet, etc.
Sharyn

22
Uh I don't know I think Uranus comes up quite frequently. A friend of mine knows someone who works in a prison and she says 74% of the inmates in for paedophilia are Aquarians.

I like Sharyn's point, I'm trying to think of a time when sex was available as it is today on the global scale that it is I'm alluding to a operation ORE where they needed to furnish 10,000 different images of children being abused in order to become a member. Mind you when you think of ancient philosophy everyone around the world at the time had broadly similar views, the Incas, the Egyptians, The Chinese. They worshipped gods, stars, and planets. Now travel was pretty limited so how did they do this?

I wonder whether those venus/mars abberations would have anything to do with Aquarius and Scorpio Tom.

23
Hi Sharyn
We communicate with each other through motion pictures and cable TV, the Internet, etc.
Yes, and with the possible partial exception of motion pictures, they are all ruled by Mercury. I don't want to go too far astray with this, but now might be a good time to study what we mean by "rulership." In modern astrology it seems to mean "has an affinity with." In traditonal astrology it has more to do with shared essence. The essence of Mercury is communication (to limit our discussion) therefore everything that communicates, regardless of how, is ruled to one degree or another by Mercury. I say to one degree or another because it isn't all that clear cut. Take poetry - it is communication (Mercury) but it is also beauty so Venus is included. Or look at a rose. Immediaely we think of Venus, but the color red and the thorns are ruled by Mars. The point is we are concerned with essence not affinity. Affinity assigns motion pictures to Neptune because Neptune is associated with illusion. This is one of the more sensible adaptations of Neptune. But motion pictures also reflect (Moon) beauty (Venus) and communicate ideas (Mercury).

The outer planets came along at a time when essence was not a primary consideration. So astrologers looked for other things to determine rulership. This is a minefield as Uranus came along at the time of the American and French Revolutions and astrologers subsequently latched on to that. The problem is that revolutions didn't originate in the late 18th century, e.g. the English Revolution in the 17th century made the latter two possible, and the examples chosen by astrologers were limited to Western History.

Then came Neptune. Here is a planet that by all rights should be (and once in a while has been) associated with mass slaughter, but instead it gets LSD. Neptune is the MISC file of the solar system. Don't know where to put it? Give it to Neptune. I never tire of quoting The Mountain Astrologer's oracle Maya del Mar who tells (without laughing) that "Neptune is anything we want it to be." And so it is.

By the time Pluto was discovered this mish mosh of methods of determining rulership had been so muddled that even when a majority astrologers disagreed with the idea of Pluto ruling Scorpio, one guy who didn't disagree wrote a book, made the claim, and it became "fact." The more the astrologer knows about this history of the use of the outer planets, the more likely he is to abandon them. At least I think so.

Skippy:

I wonder whether those venus/mars abberations would have anything to do with Aquarius and Scorpio
Would that it were so. We all have our prejudices and mine is Aquarius, which I believe to be the most overrated sign of the zodiac. Yes it is humanitarian and that is usually defined by the poltical beliefs of the astrologer. Is it more humane to keep people dependent on the State or forcibly free them from it to make them independent? I don't want to discuss that, but regardless of which position someone takes, they can call it "humanitarian" and assign it to Aquarius.

Interestingly both signs you mention are fixed and one (Scorpio) is associated with sex. They are both ruled by the malefics. They also are in hard aspect to one another. The Moon, emotions, is in fall in Scorpio, and Saturn, ruler of evil deeds rules Aquarius. The SUn, character, nobility, honorable behavior, etc is in detriment in Aquarius. But a whole lot of work needs to be done to make any authoritative claims about sign associations and particular deeds. There are lots of ways to channel Aquarian and Scorpion tendencies without commiting vile sexual offenses. We need to tread lightly here.

They worshipped gods, stars, and planets. Now travel was pretty limited so how did they do this?
Good question. A similar good question is this: if astrology is just a arbitrary and random assigning of attributes to planets, why did all cultures associate Mars with war, and Venus with beauty, and not the other way around on occasion? In fact the accepted meanings of all the planets are pretty similar from culture to culture where no interation between them is known to have existed.

Tom

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Tom wrote:Hi Sharyn
We communicate with each other through motion pictures and cable TV, the Internet, etc.
Yes, and with the possible partial exception of motion pictures, they are all ruled by Mercury. I don't want to go too far astray with this, but now might be a good time to study what we mean by "rulership." In modern astrology it seems to mean "has an affinity with."

Yeah. The word rulership is used with abandon in modern astrology, without understanding what it really means, and where the term came from.

"In traditonal astrology it has more to do with shared essence."

I agree. And it's an elegant, logical system that takes into consideration both the dark and light natures of the planets. There is no NEED to assign rulership of signs or whatever else to any other planets, and most people who try to do that have no understanding of the ancient system at all. But unless they have studied traditional astrology, how could they?

"even when a majority astrologers disagreed with the idea of Pluto ruling Scorpio, one guy who didn't disagree wrote a book, made the claim, and it became "fact." "


I know! And people are even now wanting to assign rulerships of signs to whatever new celestial object happens to be discovered. I cut my teeth on all the modern astrology books, and I was so MAD when I discovered the manipulations of people like Alan Leo. I realized that what modern astrologers taught in their books and lectures had little of the true history and theoretical foundations of astrology. They taught Aries=Mars=1st house, etc, like it was gospel and had always been that way. It ticks me off BIG TIME.

Because of this, modern astrologers tend to assign a permanent planet to a house. IOW, Mercury is always associated with the 3rd house (no matter where it is and what house it rules in the actual chart being considered) because it's the third sign. They don't look at the chart itself and give enough weight to what's right in front of their eyes. They don't even know that the Moon has it's joy in that house.


"The more the astrologer knows about this history of the use of the outer planets, the more likely he is to abandon them. At least I think so."

Well, I don't know if I will go so far as to abandon them, but I certainly disagree with any rulerships assigned to them. I tend to look at the outers like an addition to the basic information of most any chart, and I am always in the process of observing them in transits, so my jury is still out. I do, however, stay open to the idea of developing influences and new information.
Sharyn

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[quote="skippy"]On reflection with given such a high ratio in one prison it looks as if I'm saying statistically most paedophiles are Aquarian. I'm a not whatsover prejudiced to Aquarians. It was just a small scale observation another astrologer made insinuating that she found strong Uranus attachments involved in that sort of behaviour. Alice Baily talks about the Uranus, Saturn, Mercury triangle each having an effect on cultural processes, effects, and alleviation of pain. So it is easy to see why we are mixing them up.

I cut my teeth on Margaret Hone and part of her teachings was that Aries ruled my mars first house and so on she also taught malefics and benefics, fall, detriment etc. Is she classed as a modern Astrologer?

Take Kurt Cobain's chart
20.2.07
7.20 pm
Washington

he has a few planets in their own sign and in exaltation. Most striking though is the Pluto on the 12th house ascendent. He was a major player in his day on the music scene and tragically cut short his fame and glory by shooting himself in the head aged 27 leaving behind a wife and young child and music legacy that lives on.

His songs echo a preoccupation with power, obsession in love and corruption. He despised authority and modern structures. I suppose you would say Jupiter is malefic because it is in the 11th house (groups, society) and in cancer.

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skippy wrote:
skippy wrote:
I cut my teeth on Margaret Hone and part of her teachings was that Aries ruled my mars first house and so on she also taught malefics and benefics, fall, detriment etc. Is she classed as a modern Astrologer?
Well, her bio says this:

"[...]Margaret Ethelwyn Hone was an important astrologer in the mid 1900s, yet modern use of her great work has been largely lost in the New-Age-heavy "Modern Astrology" of the turn of the century. Ms. Hone is remembered mostly as a text-book astrologer, of which she was honored to be, and as an Englishwoman, she counted among her close friends men such as Charles E. O. Carter, Marc Edmund Jones, and Dane Rudhyar.

Where Carter and Jones ventured into fatalistic interpretations of astrology - that some planets were indeed malefic and thus classified as "evil", a concept which has been swept under the rug of "Modern Astrology" - Ms. Hone held the textbook line.[...]"

So it seems that she stuck more to the traditional teachings of astrology and wasn't inclined to jump on the New Age bandwagon.
skippy wrote:Take Kurt Cobain's chart
20.2.07
7.20 pm
Washington

he has a few planets in their own sign and in exaltation. Most striking though is the Pluto on the 12th house ascendent. He was a major player in his day on the music scene and tragically cut short his fame and glory by shooting himself in the head aged 27 leaving behind a wife and young child and music legacy that lives on.

His songs echo a preoccupation with power, obsession in love and corruption. He despised authority and modern structures. I suppose you would say Jupiter is malefic because it is in the 11th house (groups, society) and in cancer.
How could Jupiter be malefic in Cancer and in the 11th house? I'm not following you.
Sharyn

27
it rules Saggitarius, according to Halbronn Jupiter is exalted in Capricorn and given cancer is opposite it is in fall. In vedic astrology a planet that is not happy where it should be will affect the native in malefic way. Gosh I'm sensing traditionalism is seeping into my bones. I guess I'm anticipating what Tom is going to say about Cobain's addictive lifestyle and preoccupation with death.