Saturn-Neptune opp. (Granny )

1
Hi Granny,

Thought I'd just follow-up quickly re your earlier comment under the Mars-Saturn conjunction thread by Deb, ie.
"I think we are looking at a buildup to the Saturn Neptune opposition on 1 september, I think things will definitely peak at that point."
Would appear so.
Already touched on the 20 year Jup-Sat cycle in other thread, but the 36 year Saturn-Neptune cycle does appear to have particular significance for Syria who's profile's increased of late.

To backtrack through this Saturn-Neptune cycle re Syria:

1989 Saturn - Neptune conjunction (Capricorn):
The Taif Agreement was signed October 22, 1989 which covered political reform, the ending of the war in Lebanon, the establishment of special relations between Lebanon and Syria, and a framework for the beginning of complete Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon.

1970 (Sat-Nep opposition, Taurus-Scorpio):
The 1970 Black September hostilities from which the Syrian forces sent to aid the PLO retreated. On November 13, 1970, Minister of Defense Hafez al-Assad effected a bloodless military coup called the Corrective Revolution, ousting the civilian party leadership and assuming the role of prime minister.

1952 (Sat-Nep conjunction, Libra)
The peak of U.S. - Syrian negotiations during the summer of 1952 where U.S. contemplated paying the Syrian government $400,000,000 dollars in exchange for settling up to 500,000 Palestinians opposed by Akram Hourani's Arab Socialist Party and the Ba'ath Party which they claimed was a sell out of the Palestinian right of return.
With the unification of Hourani's Socialist Party with the Ba'ath in December 1952 and their attempt to overthrow the Syrian regime, Shishakli was forced to shelve accepting either a western defense alliance or settling Palestinian refugees in Syria.

1936 (Sat-Nep opposition, Pisces-Virgo)
Syria first negotiated a treaty of independence with France in September of 1936.

1918 (Sat-Nep conjunction, Leo):
Ottoman control ended when the forces of the Arab revolt entered Damascus in 1918.
Australian Lighthorse troops marched unopposed into Damascus on September 30, 1918.
T.E. Lawrence and his Arab troops rode into Damascus the next day to receive an "Official" surrender.

Perhaps further significant developments on this front as Sun squares Jupiter on its way to join Saturn.

Kind regards,
TS

2
the thing that strikes me about neptune,saturn cycles is the great upheaval in weather and with people. huge events that invovle people worldwide seem to occur.

1918 the Spanish Flu and World War I absolutely held the attention of all

1936, the Olympics, the behavior of the German government, the dust bowl, abdication of Edward the 8th, precursor to eventual reign of Elizabeth,Note fathers reign begins and ends with this cycle.
(dry rather than wet year)

1952 - Elizabeth II crowned,
record snow, record rains, huge earthquakes, killer smog,
several very Xenophobic events like the slansky trials balance several events where tolerance and cooperation are attempted, Albert Schweizer gets Nobel peace prize.
and Polio ....

1970, the event of Apollo 13 held the worlds attention, unequivically.
the nuclear non-proliferation Treaty
the mai Lai Massacre
The concorde's first flight,
the break up of the beatles and deaths of Jimi Hendrix and Janice Joplin
The Ra II was well watched by many
World Cup
Isle of Wight Festival, huge
Anwar Sadat -
Divorce Italian style
cholera in Slovakia -

1989 - Tianemen Square, Exxon Valdiz - end of coldwar - the Rushdi, Ayatola, phenomena - Russian elections, Hillsborough disaster, world cup finals,
Hurricane Hugo, Loma Prieta Earthquake, Newcastle earthquake,

3
With Syria, I dont think its is just Syria, I think it is tied very strongly to Syria, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Egypt, In fact since all of those countries were once part of Egypt, I think they are very much tied together, saudi seems tied more to Iran(persia) and Iraq and again Israel ties them together, the region is difficult to look at independently of each other.

and Syria also tied to ottoman empire or Turkey, bringing in armenia and Kurds... this is a region heavily embedded in all human history, I think it needs a wider eye view.

that is of course in my opinion, others certainly liekly to vary.

Granny

4
Hi Granny,

Yes, the cycle illuminates much globally, eg. Fall of Berlin Wall (dissolution [Ne] of boundaries [Sa]) in 1989, commencement of Bush dynasty presidential reign in 1989 (Bush Snr).

This cycle particularly relevant to developments in democracy & socialism, dissolution of structures, secret/stealth projects, oil, gas, and I'd add nuclear proliferation to that, prolific spread of diseases (Neptune in Aquarius, airborne disease), dumping of waste/toxins, thick fogs, anaesthesia-pain relief-drug induced states (eg. coma's), as well as crystalization of solutions in the drug/medical field, eg. inflamation suppressants.

Syria (Assyria) by it's geographic location would naturally exert influence and be influenced by those in its region.

But one reason this brought Syria into focus with current hostilities is that Syria's current regime was founded by Assad's coup in 1970 - at the Saturn (Taurus) - Neptune (Scorpio) opposition.

Assad, a dominant figure in Middle East politics died in 2000 just after agreeing to work with US to revive talks with Israel in Middle East peace process - 2000 the year of Jup-Sat (Taurus) conjunction - and his son then took over.
Challenge appears to be to how his son will carry forward his father's legacy, esp. in negotiating peace.
"In fact since all of those countries were once part of Egypt,..."
Sorry, I'm a little confused here, seems I've missed something.

When were the countries of the Levant once part of Egypt, especially Syria?

At their height, the Assyrians (Syria) dominated all of Syria-Israel, Egypt, and Babylonia.
Egypt fell to the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Persians (again), Ottoman Turks, UK etc.

Syria has also fallen to various regimes, but when to Egypt?

Kind regards,
TS

5
about 4,000 years ago or so, Israel and a chunk of what is now syria were part of Egypt. Babylon then had a chunk, etc. A lot of what western society perceives to be Israel as a separate nation was Israel as a colony of Egypt or babylon or other countries. And let us not forget that there was a time that much was part of the Persian empire of Alexander, unifying yet again the philosophies of the entire region, then Rome had almost every thing in the area, then back to ottoman ... (a rather strong reversal too syrian rule I think)

I'd love to have a computer generated map of the area that shows the different lines of the different empires recessing and advancing as far back as is currently known. I think it would be helpful for people studying the area to see how the philosophies (and when) overlapped. Also to see where some philosophies may have been stomped out, so that one can look for clues to the previous philoisopy in the newly generated mythology, for instance when matricide became acceptible in Athens - Persian invasion, death of an era, insertion of Apollo...since a great deal of what we discuss here is oder than a lot of the history we are familiar with, I've been trying to read more on older civilizations, spotty of course since work bites into my reading, but ongoing.

for further reference of Egyption colonial rule, you might want to read "The Bible Myth, the African origins of the jewish people" by Gary Greenberg, the bibliography alone is worth the cost of the book. of course I'd love to know of other works on that era if anyone has other references.

Granny.

6
Hi Granny,
"about 4,000 years ago or so, Israel and a chunk of what is now syria were part of Egypt."
Thanks. Are you referring to Egypt's New Kingdom period?
Approximately, the reign of Ramesses II (born ca 1302BC) who led several expeditions into the lands east of the Mediterranean and was forced to retreat by the Hittites. Subsequent conflicts resulting in the earliest known peace treaty (between Egyptian and Hittite Empire).

And before this extension and retreat, Egypt had been conquered by the Hyksos (ca 1650 BC) which was a possible reason for them extending to create a protective buffer between the Levant & Egypt.

But I'm not sure temporary hold over a chunk of Syria translates through to control of Syria as a whole.
"A lot of what western society perceives to be Israel as a separate nation was Israel as a colony of Egypt or babylon or other countries."
I'm not sure about that. I would imagine many in the west would see Israel as a separate nation arising from the UN partitioning territory of the British Mandate of Palestine (1947), Israel then proclaiming independence in 1948.

Tracing this back to the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and the League of Nations assigning UK the Palestine Mandate (back to activities of the century before, eg. First Zionist Congress 1897).

To go back further, from about 9th century BC there was a series of Jewish Kingdoms & states founded which established intermittent Hebrew rule over the region, eg. the Israelites united under one king ca. 1050BC which lasted to about 920BC when it split into Kingdom of Israel in north, and Judah in South. Israel then fell to the Assyrians a couple of hundred years later, and Judah fell to the Babylonians a couple of hundred years after that.
"And let us not forget that there was a time that much was part of the Persian empire of Alexander, unifying yet again the philosophies of the entire region,"
Yes, I've covered a bit of ground and have some knowledge of transitions in governance there. However, I don't believe the imposition of a new ruler unifies philosophies of an entire region, any region - be it the Middle East, Europe, UK or anywhere else.
Legislation & administration it can unify and language to a certain extent, however philosophical as well as religious diversity remains, as do political divides, despite the homogenization and cross-pollination that occurs.
And, even while new rulership can homogenize language, the native population will continue to use their native tongues - multilingual societies.
A new foreign ruler simply adds a new layer to that which already exists, unless they eradicate instead of integrate the existing population.

The philosophical evolution and cross-pollination is fascinating and I think your idea of a computer generated map of areas showing the expansion and contraction of different empires is excellent!

But if we're looking at a particular country through mundane lens, then I'd have thought we're looking at the evolution of that country specifically, from significant points such as proclamations of independence (which is a new birth) or an overthrow. Part of the consideration also being its geo-political relationships.

It's interesting to attempt to trace the various changes in governance etc back through the ages to see how it's arrived at the present point in time ... however, there's always significant turning points which mark the commencement of a new phase and, given the duration of the Ottoman Empire (Turkish), then much of what's currently going on in this region I'd have thought probably takes direct bearings from the League of Nations granting temporary colonial governance to Britain and France (following fall of the Ottoman Empire in WW I) who divided the region into 4 between them, three of which remain today.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge & thoughts.

In appreciation,
TS

7
I have a different outlook on this area than just about anyone else I know.

I have never seen the conflict in the palestine area as other than a millenia old dispute over who stole the land and claimed a deity gave it to them first, or last, whatever. The land has always been in contention by the same parties, you'd think they'd learn to share after a few millenia. I dont see that anyone in that area agrees that the 1947 action did anything but piss the other parties off more.

Generational fueds tend to strike me as a bit insane. And basically, that is how I see the entire situation.

The other parties in the area certainly dont think that Israel should exist as a separate country. How many times have they been shouted down in the UN for saying just that? does that change their mind set? or just close doors of communication? far as I can see it just keeps the battle raging, because they do not agree. But then the majority of leaders in that area seem to think Kurds and Armenians should be assimilated to their religious world view and lose all the rich culture, history and religious belief as well. (generally speaking, there is always a reasonable person somewhere, but people who destroy historical artifacts because it doesn't fit their world view tend to make me extremely angry, and those that try to push their religious views on me as well, I've always said that organized religion is the most heinous crime ever commited on mankind, by mankind)

about the Egyptian dates, I'm afraid I'll have to look them up and get back to you on that one as I can't remember them off the top of my head.
And if I recall correctly Greenberg gives two time periods for occupation of israel by egypt, I've pulled the book off the shelf and will repost once I find the pertinent sections.

like I said I'd love an interactive mape of the area that showed the different claimants at different times. that particular piece of land was once much more resource rich, its been woefully destroyed by lack of forthought over the millenia.

Well that covered a great deal of philosophical ground, if not exactly astrological. =) though really this is the condensed version.
Granny

8
It's just a big ol' squabble basically... just a shame they feel the need to keep blowing each other up over it. Maybe they could be encouraged to play football or something as an alternative to the carnage. I shouldn't joke but it's either that or weep.

Glad someone else can see past the misinformation we've been fed on the news lately... "This conflict began with the kidnap of two soldiers" my left buttock! :) Sorry I'm going off topic!

9
The tears wept over this insanity would overflow the banks of the nile, heck, it would probably overflow the banks of the mediteranian sea.

Sometimes I think that the entire area of Israel should be made into a world recreational area, you can pay 20 bucks for a day pass to visit whatever monuments you wish to see, or something of that nature, but NO ONE, but the park ranger gets to live there.
(and the park ranger should be a budhist or hindu or some other person who doesn't give a rats a$$ about who goes to see what as long as they are unarmed and barefoot)

well maybe I can get that reading done today and get to the relevent passages.

Granny

10
Hi Granny,
"I have never seen the conflict in the palestine area as other than a millenia old dispute over who stole the land and claimed a deity gave it to them first, or last, whatever. The land has always been in contention by the same parties, you'd think they'd learn to share after a few millenia."
I think that's probably a view shared by many (at least I've encountered it often), however the 'modern' state of Israel is/was a new phase of development in the region.
I'd suggest based more upon a political/social ideology, a secular movement. Numerous places were considered prior to Israel being settled upon in this 'modern' phase.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

This modern phase also involves a significant new foreign party with its finger in the pie (vested interest). And while this foreign party's establishment was relatively recent in the grand scheme of things, there's probably a certain correlation with your mention of a millenia ago.
Approx. 1000 years ago Israel was part of "The Kingdom of Jerusalem" - Christian Kingdom after First Crusade (July 1099), which was a major turning point in the expansion of Western power, successor King Baldwin I etc, ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Jerusalem

The crusaders defeated the Fatimids - the Fatimids being the Shia dynasty ruling various areas of Maghreb, Egypt and Levant from 910-1171CE. The Fatimids were from Tunisia, west of Egypt, conquered Egypt and relocated to Cairo with Egypt becoming the centre of their empire (North Africa, Sicily, Palestine, Syria, Red Sea coast of Africa, Yemen etc). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimid

I noticed earlier you asked for references.
Wikipedia (which I imagine you're already familiar with) I find handy when I'm travelling and don't have access to my books etc, however at the end of the sections there's usually references including many books etc that may offer further assistance in your research.

Egypt was unified by Narner, ca 3200 BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt.

It seems Greenberg places Israel's origins - it's roots - in 14th century BC Egypt during the reign of the monotheistic Pharaoh Akhenaten.
His new model of Israel's origins based upon the theory:
1) Israel's appearance in Canaan occurred suddenly in the late fourteenth-early thirteenth century BC, and not after several centuries of evolution from tribes of Semite-speaking nomads;
2) the first Israelites spoke Egyptian and adhered to Egyptian cultural practices and beliefs;
3) no confederation of Semitic tribes preceded the Hebrew monarchy; and
4) the "ten lost tribes" disappeared because they never existed.
He also asserts the patriarchal history, stories of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have few, if any counterparts in Canaanite/Mesopotammian mytholoy.

I haven't read his work, but on the face of it it appears to be an effort to relocate from East to West.

The biblical account of the creation of man and Noah's flood narrative bear close resemblance to the Sumerian tales through fragments of the Sumerian myths written many centuries earlier than Tanakh (Old Testament) and the Bible.
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_mythology

There's more, but it wasn't my intent to head down that path - simply to offer a few cross references for comparison.

In addition, you might also be interested in "Enheduanna, Priestess of Inanna", considered world's oldest known author living 4300 hundred years ago (ca. 2285-2250 B.C.E.) identified via a disc discovered in Ur.
http://www.cddc.vt.edu/feminism/Enheduanna.html

Mesopotamian culture/civilisation was well established by time of Greenberg's 1400 BC date, and around time of Narner's Egyptian unification ca 3200BC it appears Sargon of Akkad was also uniting northern and southern Mesopotamia.
Ref. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia

Also suggest ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Israel.
and Sumer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

Back to present, re this current conflict.

Internally the battle would appear to be largely about 'homeland' rights, value of boundaries/land ownership, local governance etc, however I would suggest international agendas play a significant role in this conflict and are becoming apparent via the money trail.

Starting roughly a couple of thousand years ago the balance of power concerning this region shifted North and progressively West, it appears there's since been a shift in the balance of power going on from North & West to South & East.

Briefly & recently:

1. US weapons/fuel supply: reportedly the Admin is selling $210 million in aviation fuel to Israel and is expediting delivery of precision guided bombs etc to Israel; in addition it recently announced plans (to be approved by Congress) to sell $6 billion of equipment, eg armoured vehicles, Black Hawk helicopters etc to moderate Arab states, ie. Saudi Arabia, UAE, Oman, Bahrain and Jordon, and a further $3.3 billion to Saudi Arabia for M1 Abrams tanks and upgrades to AH-64 attack helicopters .

- These trade agreements suggest a reinforcing of relationships and dispersion of military might strategically south of Syria & Iran.

2.Currently, international currency exchange is dominated by the U.S. dollar (USD). The U.S. dollar is used by banks world-wide as a stable reserve on which to ensure their liquidity and international transactions, investments are often made in U.S. dollars.

- China currently holds the largest foreign exchange reserves, much of which is denominated in US currency.

3. The Eurozone consumes more imported petroleum than the US. More euros than US dollars would flow into the OPEC nations, but oil is priced by those nations in US dollars only. There have been frequent discussions at OPEC about pricing oil in euros.

Iran and Venezuela have been pushing for this scheme.
Another proponent was Saddam Hussein of Iraq, which held the world's second largest oil reserves.
Since 2000 Iraq had used the euro as oil export currency.
In 2002, Iraq changed its US dollars into euros, a few months prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

4. Since the beginning of 2003, Iran has required Euros in payment of exports toward Asia and Europe, though prices are still expressed in US dollars.

Iran is planning to open an International Oil Bourse (IOB, exchange), on the free trade zone on the island of Kish, for the express purpose of trading oil priced in other currencies, including Euros.

In 2006, Iran announced its plans to open an International Oil Bourse for the express purpose of trading oil priced in other currencies, including petroeuros.

In May 2006, the Oil Ministry announced it had a two-month deadline for presenting the Articles of Association of the Iranian Oil Bourse.

In July 2006, a building was purchased and the projected opening date is September 2006.

5.The three current oil markers are all US dollar denominated: North America's West Texas Intermediate crude (WTI), North Sea Brent Crude, and the UAE Dubai Crude.
The two major oil bourses are the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYME) and the International Petroleum Exchange (IPE) in London.

The proposed Iranian bourse would establish a fourth oil marker, denominated by the euro.

Moves by central banks with major reserve currency holdings such as those of India or China to switch some of their reserves from US dollars to euros, or even of OPEC countries to switch the currency they trade in from US dollars to euros, will contribute to the US dollar's decline.
Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro

The Neptune-Saturn opposition occurs on 31 August, 2006 and Venus (ruler of Taurus, Sat-Jup conjunction 2000) will have recently transited it. In addition, this day sees Sun conjoin Mercury square Moon, the Sun-Mercury conjunction applying by opposition to Uranus, which Moon is applying to by square.

Despite the oil spill already reported along Lebanon's coast, and reports of unknown chemicals being used in the bombings on Lebanon, Neptune is also known for the fog it can cast over certain dealings - over the real agenda.
While Venus is often considered all 'loveliness, dimples & smiles', on more than one occasion armed forces have been mobilized out of a 'love' for one's land (or the value of what resides beneath it) and political manouvering in line with some social ideal - or the mythical beauty of a young woman's face (eg. Helen of Troy).

This opposition also impacts Condoleeza Rice's 1st-7th houses, Neptune rx conjoining nMars, which rules CR's MC (dob; Nov 4, 1954 @ 11.30am, Birmingham, Alabama, ref. Astrodatabank).

While Condoleeza Rice has made tentative efforts to initiate peace on behalf of colleagues of the 'West' (Aquarius) , Neptune's also known to white-ant best efforts, or white-wash the picture (something other than it seems is going on which may bring her efforts undone, giving other agendas that would appear to be more commercially driven in nature opportunity to unfold).

Meanwhile, the populace continues to suffer terribly in the merciless onslaught.

TS
Last edited by Tumbling Sphinx on Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Just quickly, further to date of 31 August, 2006:

There's a partial lunar eclipse on 7 September, 2006
(map) http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/O ... 7-Fig4.GIF

and, as 'astrojin' has already been mentioned, the Annular Solar Eclipse of 22 September, 2006.
(map) http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/O ... 2-Fig5.GIF

In view of current focus on Israel, it may also be of interest to consider Ariel Sharon's chart (data available at Astrodatabank) as from memory following some work I did on his chart earlier in the year I think this partial lunar eclipse sweeps across his nMercury & Sun.

12
Would any of you learned and scholarly astrologers comment on the chart for China in all this???? I read that they were pretty angry with the situation of one of their UN peacekeepers being among the 4 that were killed by the Israelis .Will they do something to retaliate?