31 by granny_skot Wings are Fragile and they fold, and crumble. they are already tilted back in their construction, there is no way that the wing span would be the same once it hit a building as it would fold in on itself. Maybe you dont recall that there was a Journalist on board the flight that went into the Pentagon, speaking to her husband on her cell? And while there are a large number of reasons that I blame W for the events of 911, and even a large number of ways I think he is responsible, I dont think we need to manufacture more reasons than there already are. This bit of conspiracy theory just takes away from the more basic and appalling grotesque behavior of the man and creates sympathy for him. trying to get him re-elected, despite the two term limits? Granny Quote Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:44 pm
32 by skippy The wingspan of the alleged crash where the passengers ambushed the raiders didn't bend or buckle. Nor did the wingspan of the Towers which was made of far sterner stuff than the Pentagon. The tanks would have obliterated the entire building in exactly the same way the Plane that hit the ground did. The plane had just taken off with full tanks. They both allegedly crashed and burned into the Pentagon. However the Drone needed a large bomb underneath it to penetrate the Twin Towers in the manner that it did. That tells you just how strong the buildings were made. Hark back to the van bomb. Hardly dented it's interiors really. I'd have to watch the documentary again to answer the question about the journalist. I don't think it is covered. As it is a documentary presented in serious manner. It isnt stating anything other than the facts as recorded and photographed at the time. It leaves the viewer to decide what they want to think. My friend reckons they were just all disposed of then the plane destroyed. I certainly don't think it gives sympathy for either Bush or Bin Laden. Whilst I empathise with the plight of the Palestinians for whom this war cry is in the name of, their demands are increasingly irrational and thus unresovable. As usual one will tire and the other will capitualate after much bloodshed and the lining of many greedy pockets. One side will profit and I doubt it will be the ones who are losing their lives fighting on either side in this whichever way the choose to battle. Quote Fri Aug 11, 2006 10:54 pm
33 by Deb Skippy I just edited a small descriptive comment from your post. This wasn?t central and was capable of being found objectionable by some of our members. I think Monk is doing a tremendous job here, touching upon all these controversial political situations and yet remaining very reasonable and unprovocative in his tone. Obviously people will want to pick up and extend some of his points but it?s important that we don?t go too far away from the relevant astrological discussion. If that should happen here and there, it?s especially important to avoid potentially inflammatory remarks, otherwise the worthier merits of this information packed thread will be undermined. I hope everyone will understand this because I would like to give this thread the space it needs to develop in an informative way. Deb Quote Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:08 am
34 by Tom Now we only see dying embers. Never the plane going in. The wing span of the alleged Jetliner was 52 metres. The wingspan of the dent in the Pentagon was much smaller. Airplanes or any other vehicle that crashes into a wall do not leave imprints in the building like they do in a cartoon. The impact destroys the building and the vehicle, and subequent damage resulting from the fire distorts the impact area. And while there are a large number of reasons that I blame W for the events of 911, and even a large number of ways I think he is responsible, I dont think we need to manufacture more reasons than there already are. George Bush was inaugurated on January 20, 2001. The plot to crash airplanes into buildings was in planning for several years prior. We know this from the public testimony and prosecutors evidence at the recent trial and conviction of an insider, whose name escapes me (starts with an M). The idea that, had someone else been President for those nine months the attacks never would have occurred is spurious. W wasn't President during the first attempt at attacking the WTC or the second, or when the USS Cole was attacked, nor was he the President when the Marine barracks were attacked by Hezbollah in Lebanon in the 1980s, or when this war began in 1979 when Iran did something Adoplh Hitler didn't dare do, violate the sanctity of an embassy. History began prior to September 11, 2001 and even before January 20, 2001. And for the record, there is little or nothing in the Patriot Act that didn't exist elsewhere in American law prior to its enactment. The primary purpose of the act was to eliminate the "wall" that existed between American domestic and International law enforcement. The FBI was not allowed to share information with the CIA and vice versa under the guise of preserving our civil liberties. This "wall" was erected by Jamie Gorelick, an assistant to the US Attorney General, Janet Reno during the Clinton Administration. If we want to look for conspiracies, let us wonder why Gorelick sat on the 9/11 commission rather than being interogated by it. The most plausibe reason for her infamous memo creating the wall is that they were actively trying to hide illegal campaign contributions from overseas to that lovable rogue Bill Clinton. Lest anyone wish to bring up the over-used example of the Patriot Act allowing examination of public library records, the word "libraries" is never mentioned in the Act and law enforcement has always been allowed to do just that. It was done in California's Zodiac murder case in the 1960s and 70s, and in our own domestic terrorist case, the Una Bomber. Even conpsiracy theories have to fit the facts. Tom Quote Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:39 pm
35 by skippy Tom You always make me laugh. Lovable rogue indeed. Why is that? Venusian charm eh? Anyway what was my point... ah yes Juno or whether it is more than likely the usual classical planets involved. Hmm Yes... The Patriot Act Well... rushed through it was. (I sound like that geezer of Star Wars.) Why? ID cards YOU WILL have in the UK. Its about breeding fear and being able to control us. You echo a moot point I raised. However, the van bomb on the Towers and the one in Kenya IS more what a Terr'ist is capable of. IRA stylee. You don't seriously expect me to believe that they ambushed a full jetliner with diddy plastic forks do you. Like that has ever been done before. Yes I know people have hijacked planes before usually when all the passengers have got off and they over power the very few crew left on board refusing to leave the plane unless their demands have been made. We saw what? How many many baddy Arabs board those planes? Two baddy muslims for each plane do you really expect us to believe this? Quote Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:24 pm
36 by Monk I'm not interested in conspiracy theories, i may be long winded in my approach, i am sorry it is going to take me a long time to get to the point, but be assured i will get there. Firstly i wish to address the problem of what we as astrologers would call scapegoats, and the problem of pointing the finger. I feel the first problem to be addressed is the human race is composed of two ingredients " The Female essence" and the "Male essence". I am a male but life is composed of this fact! We need the aggressive male essence in many ways that has nothing to do with war, even getting up in the morning, at an early hour to earn money to feed our complicated lifestyles need aggression, and the need to be focused. But we know our days set problems that need this focus of separating the day into small individual areas which we concentrate on, solve the problem, and move on to the next problem. I would say this comes from the male essence, who are able to do this naturally, which is a good factor, but if i would make an observation, most of females would say that there is a big picture. Most females, to men can seem more indecisive, but that means they look more towards the whole picture, so hesitate! If i would look at the times that the human race experienced suffering, i would have to say this is because of concentrating in a focused way on a small bit of a problem, without looking further to the big picture, which i may add corresponds to nuturing....sorry....this is a fact! We may, in a good natured way, experience this in male and female drivers. Males may impress with how they concentrate in showing their skills in driving, and may show a degree of impatence with the hesitant female driver.....but insurance policies show that .....sorry guys....our premiums are higher, and it is fact that insurance is lower for "Females"! As i am dealing with very difficult area's of religion and our spiritual aspirations, i wish to inject a bit of humour, as i am a male, and could be scapegoated for bringing this up! Obviously, the girls are laughing, they have found a male to admit it! But scapegoating isnt the answer, it builds up and can hurt us in a cyclic way. Recently we have found an ancient scroll that is carbon dated, and verified as coming from the early centuries A.D. I'm a wary of strong focused religious beliefs, and although i obviously value all the holy people who started these religions, although i am hesitating, i would have to say, records of "The Message" has been done by purely humans with all their faults! If we scapegoat any religious beliefs we can hardly wonder why the Jewish collective message, which i dont agree with is so strong at the moment. The term "Wandering Jew" is because the Christian ideology is founded on Judas....and discriminations that go back 2000 years! Recently we carbon dated a scroll that is the "Gospels according to Judas" And although i wish not to promote controversy, we would have to admit that we have only just started investigating the flavour of the early centuries A.D. with a scientific approach. We know that the message of Jesus is prone to human interpretation, and we as astrologers, know that agreeing to suffer as a scapegoat, as Jesus did, promotes a strong message. It may be that Judas was asked as a valued disciple to act out this traitor role in order to expand the very powerful message. I am going to see what opinions are before i expand this thread! Quote Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:08 pm
37 by Monk Although i wish to leave the previous thread section till i get opinions back, i can at least delve further into the roles of our species, male and female. From our distance of nearly a century, a opinion may be formed that the causes of World war One, and any resistance of stopping it being none-effective, may be due of a squashed depressed female nurturing role expressed by half our species. We may humbly conclude that it may "Dare i mention" be because of all male behavour, in all male "Clubs" focusing on a few years of our history, and not looking at the nurturing role that is timeless. I think equal measures of world leadership need to be addressed to create balance....which is nuturing and getting through day to day problems by focus, and concentrating,....the female essence has not had a period to harmonize world events for many thousands of years. We know ancient cultures didnt have this problem as there was just as many female myth goddesses as there were male gods. Opinions please!, i have a need to stay in the broad centre of astrological thought! Quote Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:12 pm
38 by Monk We can further experience the scapegoat by Christian jealousy and greed to destroy the knights Templar, who hold many secrets that was lost in the burning of the Library of Alexandia. I wish not to be involved in anarchy, that tears down and loses ancient wisdom, i like to join and give a gentle nudge to enlarge views. And yes i would like to give a gentle nudge to "The American Supreme Council of the 33* degree". Sorry guys the days of all male "Clubs" are not where we should be, with the difficulties of the 21 Century. Although this is a centre of great wisdom, it originated by being a scapegoat and jealousies inflicted by the inquisition, thus excaped to the "Brave New World". Being a secret order, can give messages that doesn't inspire confidence, and i feel we are in an age that we must be brave, hopefully no one is going to be burned at the stake, like Jacque De Morlay, the last Grand Master of The Knights Templar, but we need to evolve at least to the point of accepting females to the order, and thus give a chance of a female president. Any Americans that dont hold this view please hit hard this opinion that i have expressed, and could equally be one involving female religious leaders. Quote Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:51 pm
39 by Tom First off, I'm only referring to non astrological topics since I firmly beleive that mundane astrology is useless without knowledge and knowledge is impossible without facts. You echo a moot point I raised. However, the van bomb on the Towers and the one in Kenya IS more what a Terr'ist is capable of. IRA stylee. Six years ago, prior to 9/11, Israel abandoned its claims on the Lebanon border and pulled back. From that time (year 2000) until the present situation, Hezbollah, a terrorist organization, launched over 800 missiles into Israel from the positons that Israel abaondoned. Missiles, not homemade bombs. It might be comforting to think of terrorists as a group of inebriated thugs like the IRA, but the fact is that Arab terrorists are far more dangerous, far better armed, far better trained than the IRA ever dreamed of becoming. Right now as these words are writen the best armed group in Lebanon, outside of the Israeli military, is not the Lebanese army, but Hezbollah, a terrorist organization that is using sophisticated weaponry in the battle, not fireworks and bottle rockets. You don't seriously expect me to believe that they ambushed a full jetliner with diddy plastic forks do you. They used box cutters (prior to 9/11 I personally boarded an airplne with a box cutter knife. I use them in my work and I was flying to a project. I forgot I had the damn thing with me and only realized it when I went through security. I was mad at myself becuse I had just purchased it and it was more expensive than most. I thought it would be confiscated for sure. They did not take it away), and to prove they meant business they cowed the passengers by slitting the throat of a flight attendant. They did not tell anyone they were crashing the plane into the twin towers. They let them hope for some kind of salvation to avoid what happened on Flight 93. In order to deny any of this one has to deal with the testimony and evidence against Zacarias Moussaoui, recently convicted of being part of the 9/11 conspiracy. He confessed and after his conviction, recanted. Is he part of the plot or is he a scapegoat who likes to confess to things he nad nothing to do with? Like that has ever been done before. It's been done with less. Airplane hijackings have been accomplished with toy pistols and simple threats. Look up DB Cooper on Google. The fact is, deliberately crashing planes into buildings had never been done before. Do you seriously expect anyone to believe this was staged when none of the passengers on those four flights ever returned home? Or are they all part of the plot, too?Tom Quote Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:34 pm
40 by Monk The original problems can be expressed by damaged souls in our small time period, of course any people that incite or agree with any bombing of ordinary people have massive problems. but we need to focus to the difficulties of our time, which means any within our collective consciousness that kill need to be subject to a court of law, but a overall need of seeing the problems that have evolved during the last 2000 years is also needed. Inviting Arabs to sign agreements that promote peace can be mis- interpreted, by cosy chats at "Camp David", which they think is a reference to "The Headquarters that the Knights Templars had on the "Dome of the rock", which is central to masonic desires of excavating the floor plan where "Soloman's Temple was, which would be a shrine! The trouble is this few acres also is important to Jewish Faith, which as luck would have it, isnt so different from what masons would desire. The problem lies that we think that Mecca is the spiritual center of all Muslim faiths, which it is, but shares importance with the Al- Walid Ibn Abdul Malik mosque built in the seventh century and the ummayad Caliph Abdul Malik Ibn Marwan Mosque, built at a later date, being the place that is believed Mohamad ascended to heaven. Ironic as religion is, where do you think this sacred place is? You guessed it, the Dome of The Rock, in Jerusalem, which is the area where Jews also pray, being the surviving wall of "The Temple of Soloman"!!!!!! As the Arabs have battled the Knights Templars, for about "1,000 years and are old eyeball to eyeball adversaries, who cannot obviously get agreement, and are stuck in a cycle, obviously they need help. This can be symbolic by the "Oslo Accords Agreement", on the White House Lawn in 1993. Where the Jews and Arabs shook hands....Very old Adversaries, but who was the mediator? Bill Clinton was! Now look up on the net "De Molay". Afterwards look up the web link hopefully that will work that i am giving now, and you may begin to see the problem. www.demolay. org/ Quote Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:06 pm
42 by skippy Monk I found that post after mine tear streamingly hilarious. Thank you. I really have enjoyed your posts and you seem to forget that I said that. So I won't pay you a compliment again. Gawd how did Judas get into this debate!? (I know I'm not meant to use an exclamation mark and a question mark together but what the heck I believe I'm allowed to use heck) Talk about taking the heat out of the sitution. So I will re-iterate since someone might take offence I did not get my information from internet sites with spurious research information I got my information from thoroughly investigated Journalism. When I said what I said it was not some slur on anybody. Ok Tom I forgot about the box cutters but my mate reckons the whole lot were assassinated. I must stress that none of these remarks were made in the documentary. The IRA did infact launch rockets and had the capability. Their's was a more different game. This isn't a game about winning. This at present is about Jihad whereby Muslims are feeling their beliefs are being attacked and thus their religion and way of life is under threat. Islam arose out of a reaction to the Christian Crusades and Jihad was a natural response to that which is why it is perfectly permissable to fight for ones beliefs. It doesn't say one should take ones own life in the process. This is a cunning and modern spin borne more out of desperation than the sophistication of the IRA. The Palestinians could never EVER hope to be as armed as the Israelis that is why they are doing it the way they are doing it. However, someone has sold those arms to them and no prizes for guessing where our low interest rates are coming from. Note the strongly placed Jupiter on the charts for those attacks. Last edited by skippy on Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total. Quote Sat Aug 12, 2006 10:22 pm