skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

What are your favourite answers?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Philosophy & Science
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 463

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:15 am    Post subject: What are your favourite answers? Reply with quote

Hello,

What are your personal and favorite answers to the following questions?

1. If astrology works, how do you explain the different lifes identical twins lead assuming they are brought up by the same parents and in the same environment?

2. If astrology works, how do you explain the identical times of deaths of so many people (which of course have many different birth charts) in war or natural disaster (like the last Tsunami)?

3. Do you believe in fate completely? If you believe in fate completely, what's the use of prediction since you can' change them? If you believe in free will completely, what's the use of prediction since you can do/be whatever you want? If you believe in both destiny and free will, which do you feel is stronger? If you feel that free will is stronger in determining your future, then you are impying that electional astrology is stronger that natal chart. Do you think this is so? If you feel that destiny is stronger in determining your future, then what's the use of electional?

Imagine that the questioner is someone who is interested in astrology and came up with these questions.

Now, there are, of course, many answers to the above questions. What I am ineterested in is your favourite and personal answers to the above questions.

Thank you...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
skippy



Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 88
Location: england

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: What are your favourite answers? Reply with quote

Hi Astrojin

[quote="astrojin"]1. If astrology works, how do you explain the different lifes identical twins lead assuming they are brought up by the same parents and in the same environment?

It doesn't matter if people are astrological, non/identical, twins, tripulets, two people born on the same day. The chart is as original as a finger print. It is up to the astrologer and client to work together to come up with answers. The chart is a framework of many variable factors which may or may not apply to each and every individual as they have their own identity, experiences and choices in life.

2. If astrology works, how do you explain the identical times of deaths of so many people (which of course have many different birth charts) in war or natural disaster (like the last Tsunami)?
So what why wouldn't they have different birth charts. I believe the chart will also denote how the native experiences death.

3. Do you believe in fate completely? If you believe in fate completely, what's the use of prediction since you can' change them? If you believe in free will completely, what's the use of prediction since you can do/be whatever you want? If you believe in both destiny and free will, which do you feel is stronger? If you feel that free will is stronger in determining your future, then you are impying that electional astrology is stronger that natal chart. Do you think this is so? If you feel that destiny is stronger in determining your future, then what's the use of electional?

It's not a tough question though I'm sure you would like it to be. Destiny cannot be validated it will always be in the realms of belief systems. Karma, three fold law, retribution, judgement day, 'you reap what you sow' and in the latter day fortune telling and astrology all fall into this type of question. Advocates attempt to use empircal evidence to back up their theories. Some people will always choose not to believe it, however strongly the case is put across.

Neither is stronger than the other what is going to matter is how you react to it and what you choose to work with. Each and every one of us has choices and there is a good market for the 'tell me what my future holds' brigade. Personal responsibility is what counts. Decide what floats your boat. I can't tell you which one to choose.


Last edited by skippy on Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:14 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ChrisK



Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 33
Location: Toronto, Canada

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:30 pm    Post subject: Re: What are your favourite answers? Reply with quote

[quote="astrojin"]Hello,

What are your personal and favorite answers to the following questions?

1. If astrology works, how do you explain the different lifes identical twins lead assuming they are brought up by the same parents and in the same environment?

2. If astrology works, how do you explain the identical times of deaths of so many people (which of course have many different birth charts) in war or natural disaster (like the last Tsunami)?

3. Do you believe in fate completely? If you believe in fate completely, what's the use of prediction since you can' change them? If you believe in free will completely, what's the use of prediction since you can do/be whatever you want? If you believe in both destiny and free will, which do you feel is stronger? If you feel that free will is stronger in determining your future, then you are impying that electional astrology is stronger that natal chart. Do you think this is so? If you feel that destiny is stronger in determining your future, then what's the use of electional?

Imagine that the questioner is someone who is interested in astrology and came up with these questions.

Now, there are, of course, many answers to the above questions. What I am ineterested in is your favourite and personal answers to the above questions.

Thank you...[/quote]

1. Even twins born a minute apart have differences in their charts. The astrologer has to be aware of how these slight differences will manifest.

2. I haven't looked at the charts of people who have died en masse in such a disaster but I think they would show some afflictions. Still, I think there is likely some larger chart at work here such as the national chart, or some other collectivity to which the individuals belong. When this chart becomes catastrophically afflicted then its "energies" overflow and it can short circuit the horoscopes of all other connected individuals.

3. Yes, I believe in fate completely. That doesn't mean that it can be known or predicted by the astrologer since our knowledge is partial at best. So while destiny cannot be changed, it cannot be fully known either. That is what makes our predictions still a worthwhile enterprise. We can never be sure we are correct.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 247

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi astrojin,

Quote:
1. If astrology works, how do you explain the different lifes identical twins lead assuming they are brought up by the same parents and in the same environment?


Twins aren't born at precisely the same time, one preceeds the other which modifies birth-time - each person's birth moment is unique.

Insofar as environmental conditioning goes, I've yet to see one parent change the nappies of twins at exactly the same time - one gets the attention and their needs tended to first.
Parents energy and attention spans fluctuate, they are not consistent and equal across time, nor is broader environment, eg. school.

Quote:
2. If astrology works, how do you explain the identical times of deaths of so many people (which of course have many different birth charts) in war or natural disaster (like the last Tsunami)?


Identical times of death, generally speaking.
Subsumption - Mundane subsumes Natal.
'M' comes before 'N', a massive force can overcome the native.

Quote:
3. Do you believe in fate completely? If you believe in fate completely, what's the use of prediction since you can' change them? If you believe in free will completely, what's the use of prediction since you can do/be whatever you want? If you believe in both destiny and free will, which do you feel is stronger? If you feel that free will is stronger in determining your future, then you are impying that electional astrology is stronger that natal chart. Do you think this is so? If you feel that destiny is stronger in determining your future, then what's the use of electional?


hmmm, well, we're born and we die ... what occurs between these two defining moments is a matter of exercising choice or electing which path to take (free will).

"If you feel that free will is stronger in determining your future, then you are impying that electional astrology is stronger that natal chart." ... not necessarily, who's to say someone didn't exercise free will on some higher plane in electing the moment they were born? Astrology is an aid to understanding ... and may lead someone toward further understanding of the moment elected for birth.

"what's the use of prediction" ... is there any advisory role, or choice under consideration, that doesn't take into account potential outcomes? Generally speaking, if someone doesn't tie up their shoelaces I predict they'll trip over ... but there'll also be those who simply glide on through regardless.

Imagine ... Very Happy

Warm wishes,
TS
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 463

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you so much ChrisK and Tumbling Sphinx!!! My favourite answers are also close to yours!

Skippy...thanx anyway
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
borealis



Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 132

Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe I missed this post. My answers are pretty much the same too. no two people can occupy the exact same space.
Twins and Fate question to me, goes hand in hand. They do have different charts and subtleties can be found but still, two people can be influenced the exact same way and have different outcomes, Different decisions regarding the same influences can snowball into a completely different experience.
Two people can be heavily influenced to be in prisoned...one goes to jail, one works there. As far as their passion for education, one can educate themselves about breaking the law, one can educate themselves to upphold it. If the ascendant changes, house system changes, which would happen alot with twins, then the same influences are affecting different areas of life. Mars in the first or second house is a pretty big difference!! Then again, there are the twins who have been separated but are strangely alike..hmm:)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a man who was a twin who was recently put to death in Taiwan which brought up many of these questions. What was interesting is that the charts of both the twins showed a life altering event, and indeed the surviving twins life was irreperably altered. The twin who was executed had gotten into some drug scheme because his twin needed expensive medical treatment back home, in australia. Since the web site in question is no longer up I dont have all the details handy, but certainly circumstances showed that both charts, 10 minutes apart in birth, were valid.

Also it can be inherent in twins to enjoy doing the same things together, but some people are contrary and want to be seen as individuals, so it is not ill conceived that they might choose different paths of employment, etc. out of sheer stubborness, they will still quite likely choose to do things that are within the realms of their charts.

well my two bits, Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found the news story about the incident in question:

Singapore grants `one last touch'
FAREWELL: Singapore has agreed to allow Australian Nguyen Tuong Van to hold hands with his relatives before his execution today for heroin smuggling

AFP , SYDNEY
Friday, Dec 02, 2005,Page 5
Singapore bowed to Australia's pleas yesterday to let a condemned Australian drug runner touch his mother and brother one final time before his execution today.
After rejecting repeated, top-level Australian bids to save the life of Nguyen Tuong Van, Singapore's foreign ministry said prison and government authorities would break with its normal policy and allow the 25-year-old to hold hands with his mother Kim and his twin brother Khoa.
Singapore said the decision was in response to a personal request from Prime Minister John Howard to his Singaporean counterpart, Lee Hsien Loong, at a Commonwealth heads of government meeting last week.
"Like many jurisdictions that authorize capital punishment, Singapore does not allow `contact' visits between prisoners and family members," it said, arguing that "such encounters can be traumatic and are likely to destabilize the prisoners and their family members."
"However, after considering the request carefully, especially the personal appeal made by PM Howard ... Mr Nguyen will be allowed to hold hands with his mother and brother," it said.
Nguyen has only been allowed to see family and friends through a glass partition at Singapore's Changi prison since being condemned to death for trying to smuggle 400g of heroin via Singapore to Australia in 2002.
Capital punishment has long been outlawed in Australia, and Canberra made numerous top level appeals to Singapore to spare Nguyen, but to no avail.
Having accepted the inevitability of Nguyen's impending death, Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer made a last ditch appeal earlier yesterday to permit "some physical contact" between the young man and his family.
Earlier yesterday an opinion poll was published showing that many Australians supported the death sentence handed down against Nguyen despite widespread public emotion here over his fate.
The survey by the Morgan institute found that 47 percent of Australians believe Nguyen should be executed for his crime.
Another 46 percent said the death penalty should not be carried out; seven per cent were undecided.
Downer acknowledged that many Australians felt Nguyen committed a serious crime and deserved to be punished.
"But I feel very sad he is going to lose his life as a result of it," he said.
"Regardless of what the opinion polls say, I feel very sad he is going to be executed myself," he said.
The impending execution of the Melbourne native, who had no previous criminal record and told police he was smuggling the drugs to help pay off his twin brother's debts, has angered many Australians and saddened many others.
A number of candlelit vigils and prayer ceremonies have been held to show support for Nguyen, including one outside parliament in Canberra overnight that was attended by politicians from across the political spectrum.
The public emotion and occasional calls for a retaliatory boycott of Singaporean products has raised concerns Nguyen's execution could damage relations between the two countries, which are major trade partners.
But Australian officials have insisted the case will not harm ties, and Singapore's top diplomat in Australia appealed for understanding yesterday in comments on national radio.
"We respect Australia's sovereign choice not to have capital punishment but we hope that Australia and Australians would also likewise respect Singapore's sovereign choice in imposing the death penalty for the most serious crimes, including drug trafficking," Singapore High Commissioner Joseph Koh said.
This story has been viewed 1105 times.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
carnna



Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 44

Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow.
how horribly tragic.....and sadly ironic.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
straycat



Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 25
Location: dorset

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject: identical twins Reply with quote

Hi,

Infact someone asked me about 'the twins' issue last week and I sounded like I knew what I was talking about when I said; that they may be brought up and have, what looks like from the outside, very different lives, the chart doesnt describe concrete facts. One may have a policeman for a father, one may have an animals rights activist. But the similarity will be in their experience of their father. If they have an aries sun, they will have an entirely different experience than if they are aquarians. And the father will be motivated towards very different goals in their work. And also, I have heard of twins separated form birth who meet again and are amazed at how similar their lives have been.

They're great questions!

I'll chew on them some more.
_________________
CATH
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll take on question 2.) because it's the easiest and I don't have a lot of time today.

Lilly says it best on page 530 of CA
Quote:
The Native might live...the natural course of his life, if he... escaped sudden casualties, or avoided the general fate of any City or Country wherein he came to reside or inhabit, for no particular fate can resist a general calamity.

In other words when it comes to large scale disasters, the chart for the city or country that you're living in takes precedence over your own natal chart.
_________________
Mark F
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Lainie



Joined: 25 Jan 2006
Posts: 142
Location: Long Beach, NY

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, that Astrology WORKS!!
So I guess your questions are for fun and not serious.

How many of us have had "close calls" in our lives... could have just as easily died if not for one small "grace."
Most of us, by aspect or transit are in danger all the time.

I'm more interested in the chart of the "survivor". What made him avoid catastrophe brought on by Plutonian or Uranian energy??

Fate? I believe in the natal chart.
Lainie
_________________
Lainie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SaturnReturn



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 100
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd venture that the nativity is our destiny, it is up to us whether or not we live up to our potential. Free will works within the natal chart. Stephen Hawking never had the free will to make himself a decathalete, but he did have the free will to make himself a reknowned physicist.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Neha Rohra



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 38
Location: Calcutta-India

Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion believing in fate is not the same as believing in astrology.

A belief in astrology as far as one's natal chart is considered to show the basic temperament of the person,may actually lead to what Maslow calls self-actualization.Self actualization needs one to be honest with oneself at gut level,only when this is achieved can one use ones free will.A positive kind of belief in astrology leads to a positive use of free will rather than surrendering oneself to the three sisters of fate. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
1. If astrology works, how do you explain the different lifes identical twins lead assuming they are brought up by the same parents and in the same environment?

My favourite answer to this question is that families tend to assign different characteristics to twins, perhaps as a way to differentiate them? I've seen this with several pairs of twins, eg, "My sister was the pretty one, I was the brainy one." So family conditioning encourages twins to develop differently.

Quote:
2. If astrology works, how do you explain the identical times of deaths of so many people (which of course have many different birth charts) in war or natural disaster (like the last Tsunami)?

I like what a few people have said here about the mundane subsuming the personal but you could also look at Ken Gillman's study of the 1996 Dunblane massacre in which he tried to identify chart factors that would differentiate those who survived and those who perished. The link is : http://www.astrodatabank.com/AS/ASWhoWillSurvive.htm for those who are interested.

Quote:
3. Do you believe in fate completely? If you believe in fate completely, what's the use of prediction since you can' change them? If you believe in free will completely, what's the use of prediction since you can do/be whatever you want? If you believe in both destiny and free will, which do you feel is stronger? If you feel that free will is stronger in determining your future, then you are impying that electional astrology is stronger that natal chart. Do you think this is so? If you feel that destiny is stronger in determining your future, then what's the use of electional?


As the lamas say, there are different kinds of karma -- some karma you can change, other karma not so much. My favourite answer is the metaphor about how you can't pick the hand you were dealt but you can choose how to play the cards once you get them. I personally think a great deal of fate (karma) is freshly minted moment by moment as a consequence of our ongoing choices and actions.

Tara
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Philosophy & Science All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated