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profections
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sigma4



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 116

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:03 pm    Post subject: profections Reply with quote

I will appreciate any expalanation/help for my question below:

As far as natal astrology is concerned, one medieval astrology principle as I learned from R.Zoller's course material is that "position is always stronger than rulership". This principle suggests the effect of a planet in a house is more important than the ruler of the cusp, so examination of it has to be given priority over the cusp ruler(s).

This principle is violated in case of profections, where we always need to take the cusp ruler first.

What is the reason for the shift of priority (i.e preferring the ruler over the planet in the house) in case of profections?

Thanks in advance.

Sigma
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

The concept "Position is stronger than rulership" adopted by Robert Zoller (probably through Zoltan Mason) was expounded by Morin de Villefranche (see his Astrologia Gallica, esp. Vol 21). Robert Corre is also currently giving courses (Astrosynthesis) using Morin's text.

I don't think the ancients put position (though important) as generally stronger than rulership except in specific cases. If there is a planet in a house, Morin would take that planet as the one who has greatest say to whatever is represented by that house (he would call the planet is being determined i.e. local significator of that house). If there is no planet in a house, the ruler(s) naturally become the determinant (sign ruler, exalted ruler and triplicity rulers). Morin does not look into term and face rulers as he thought that these were the creations of the Arabs whom he detested (and he used his own set of triplicity rulers).

In predictive methods, Morin only used primary directions (he was a mathematician, primary directions must have sing to his mathematical mind), solar revolutions, progressions and transits. He would probably had grouped profection along with other ancient predictive methods as fantastical creations of the Arabs. Anyway, he did make very good predictions according to testimonies of others.

So, I don't think we should use the principle "Position is stronger than rulership", for profections as Morin (who expounded the principle mentioned above) did not use profection and the Ancients who did use profections did not adopt the principle "position is stronger than rulership".
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sigma4



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 116

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Thanks for the comments but as far as I remember Robert Zoller refers to that as a "medieval astrology principle" which implies that it is adopted by medieval astrologers. When he uses his ideas he makes it known. If my memory is not wrong he also refers to Bonatus about this. Therefore I understand that it is not a princple which is simply adopted by a few practitioners.

That said, my question as to why there is a shift of preference still remains valid.

Thanks anyway.

Sigma
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carnna



Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 44

Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the "shift" in priority is that similar to firdaria (lord of the year), we would be looking at what is "active" or "highlighted" in the profected house (lord/lady of year, month, hour....etc.) and if it fulfills (at that time) a promise of the nativity.
More in line with technique of timing the fulfilling of promised events in the nativity (delineation having been done and promises duly noted, use of firdaria and profection techniques for timing).
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Sigma4,

Quote:
That said, my question as to why there is a shift of preference still remains valid.


I am not comfortable with the term "shift" here because profection was already in use in the times of Valens (and probably long before that, just like Firdaria). As far as I know (I could well be wrong, so please tell me if I am!), the concept of "Position stronger than rulership" was made clear only relatively later...This of course does not mean that the ancients did not consider position of planets sharing rulership, it's just that they did not generally put position as stronger than the rulers with the exception of Morin (and those who followed him).

There were 5 places that the ancients (Ptolemy, Valens?) profect viz. ascendant, Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune (the 4 horoscopi, Valens? might add Part of Spirit) plus prenatal New/Full moon or midheaven or even hyleg (Omar of Tiberius).

For me, I am quite comfortable with profecting those places mentioned above and use other predictive methods with house rulers or special significators...
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sigma4



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 116

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Astrojin,

Astrojin:

Quote:
I am not comfortable with the term "shift" here because profection was already in use in the times of Valens (and probably long before that, just like Firdaria).


You may be right. Maybe I should have used "preference". I actually wanted to point out that when I said "shift".

The simple point is R.Zoller gives the first preference to the planet(s) in the house when it comes to deliniate a house, while the ruler(s) of the house take the priority/preference when predicting by profection.

I just wanted to question and explore the reasons behind this.

As I have worked extensively for the last couple of months with firdaria and profections, I have come to think that both house position and rulership are important. But in order of importance ruler of a house seems more pronounced than the planet(s) in that house.

In search of understanding, here is my humble account of why rulers are preferred over the planet(s) in the house in case of profection:

1) Planets in a house certainly have a life long effect.

2) But, for a specific year under examination, which is a short segment of an entire life, ruler(s) [basically sign ruler and exalt ruler] of the house must have more to say than the planets in that house. Although the effects of the planets will still be valid in the 'background', effects of the rulers will/must be more prominent for the profectional year because they are more relevant in the short term (in a specific year under examination).

Any comments?

P.S Thanks Carnna for comments.

Cheers,
Sigma
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again,

Quote:
Maybe I should have used "preference". I actually wanted to point out that when I said "shift".

oh, ok then.

Quote:
The simple point is R.Zoller gives the first preference to the planet(s) in the house when it comes to deliniate a house, while the ruler(s) of the house take the priority/preference when predicting by profection.


A question. Do you profect the house cusp or the ruler(s) of the house? Which do you find better?

Quote:
But in order of importance ruler of a house seems more pronounced than the planet(s) in that house.

I totally agree! An example. A diurnal native with Saturn in Leo in 2nd (we simplify matters using whole sign house). I would not take Saturn as the the most significant ruler of 2nd H. I would still give priority to Sun (ruler of second). Let's say that sun is in Aries in the 10th. That is certainly a dignified sun (exalted) and powerful (angular in the 10th) one. I would venture that the native's financial state is damn good. Saturn (a malefic) and undignified (detriment in Leo and out of sect being opposite sun's hemisphere) is still a problem. What problem? Probably something to do with joint investment (Saturn ruler of aquarius - cusp of 8th house and ruler of Capricorn - cusp of 7th house). Though Sun receives Saturn, Saturn does not receive sun, hence Saturn is giving problem to the native and the native accomodates Saturn (Sun receives Saturn). I would warn the native of any joint investment especially during his third part of his life (Saturn being the 3rd triplicity ruler of the 2nd H) - and then of course try to narrow down this using Firdaria and/or profection and solar revolution...

Quote:
1) Planets in a house certainly have a life long effect.

I agree! but don't you think that ruler(s) also have life long effect?

Quote:
Although the effects of the planets will still be valid in the 'background', effects of the rulers will/must be more prominent for the profectional year because they are more relevant in the short term (in a specific year under examination).


I don't really know.


PS: Interesting discussion! A question. Would you be so kind as to give a brief explanation on how you differentiate profection as profection does repeat itself every 12 years...
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sigma4



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 116

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Astrojin,

I enjoyed the discussion very much and, as inspired from the question in your post note, plan to make this tread mean more than what I initially meant it to be.

Now I am in a hurry to leave the internet so I will touch several things only briefly, leaving this discussion open for re-visit when I have more time.

Astrojin:
Quote:
A question. Do you profect the house cusp or the ruler(s) of the house? Which do you find better?


I profect the house cusp. Although I did it at times with the ruler, I don't have enough experience yet to speak about a decision. I tentatively feel they both highlight issues as far as prediction goes with different emphasis.

Astrojin:
Quote:
I agree! but don't you think that ruler(s) also have life long effect?


Yes. But this is another issue. And I don't know how to make a better expalanation in defence of favoring the house ruler. I did my best. Maybe someone more experienced on this can shed some more light for us.

Astrojin:
Quote:
PS: Interesting discussion! A question. Would you be so kind as to give a brief explanation on how you differentiate profection as profection does repeat itself every 12 years...


Short answer is firdaria (very important indeed!) periods and sub periods, solar returns with the addition of other predictive methods known such as progressions, directions, transits.

But I still have problems/questions as to which particular meaning of a planet or house should be preferred even after a painstaking analysis.

This last sentence makes my biggest question about astrological prediction, which I would like also to discuss with hopeful contribution of other members of this nice forum.

Currently I benefit from what I call the "matruska principle" as a borrowed term from one of my astrologer friends. This principle suggests an event or theme is to appear most probably if it is recurrent when a multiplicity of predictive techniques are employed, like in matruska babies where babies with different size are put inside each other.

A recurring planet or house, or both then implies the theme(s) to realize when repeatedly seen from different angles (predictive techniques). But the damn bad thing about this is the plural suffix s at the end Confused

"Which particular theme?" is damnest question ever! Because each planet and house means more than one thing. So we always have a set of possibilities, being at least two but never one!

There must be a deeper principle, criterion or technique to make us determine which in order to decide what will happen.

I am aware I demand too much from astrology.

What is your opinion?

Cheers,
Sigma
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carnna



Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 44

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well now, I do not know how old the 2 of you are, but when I was studying under Mr. Zoller (does one ever stop studying? lol)
I made a list of every year of my life and all facts that I knew of (even if I did not have an exact date).
I set them in 12 yr increments.\
then further into sub periods that correlated with major firdaria periods.
cross referenced with profected (lord of the year) house(s)
and found even MORE cycles that way.

Then the differences noted, then examined trip rulers as time rulers (one third of life rule) and found nuances within those themes/cycles.

Since I am much older then you two (i'm guessing) for me it was quite enlightening AND further enforced my respect for traditional ways.
It also explained alot that TRANSITS could not and did not, but did show me how transits ARE useful but not enough for prediction (or even in 20/20 hindsight).

if I had known that life would dramatically improve after 40 it would have saved me alot of heartache in my 20's.
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sigma4



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 116

Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Carnna,

Thank you for the input.

I am 42. I did the same thing like you with my past events. I have seen three and a half profection cycles in my life and I agree with every word in your post.

But still there are problems as far as prediction goes. Btw did you read my last post (the one before this)? I really would like to have your opinions about the damnest question of predictive astrology?

Cheers,
Sigma
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hai again,

To Carnna
I am 38 this year...

To Sigma4 (and the rest):-

Quote:
But I still have problems/questions as to which particular meaning of a planet or house should be preferred even after a painstaking analysis.


and

Quote:
"Which particular theme?" is damnest question ever!


Don't we all! This reminds me of the very 1st aphorism in the 100 aphorisms of the Centiloquy (attributed to Ptolemy though...):-

Judgment must be regulated by thyself, as well as by the science; for it is not possible that particular forms of events should be declared by any person, however scientific; since the understanding conceives only a certain general idea of some sensible event, and not its particular form. It is, therefore, necessary for him who practices herein to adopt inference. They only who are inspired by GOD can predict particulars.
[emphasis mine]

Anyway, if you see one planet being activated via directions, progressions, transit, firdaria, profection, etc. you would expect certain form of events occur in line with the meanings of the planet. Imagine a native with nocturnal birth chart, he/she would have Saturn-Saturn Firdaria at the age of about 10 yrs. Now, every native born when the sun is above the horizon (day) would have Saturn-Saturn Firdaria at the same age. What makes it unique is the delineation of Saturn in the natal chart that gives a personal flavor to the period. Although the events are personal to the native, they are just that - events! Many events that could manifest through Saturn. The Saturnian events could be something related to father (general significator of Saturn), or it could manifest as rulers of houses (2 for Aquarius and Capricorn, 3 if you count Libra as Saturn's Exalted ruler), or it could also manifest as the trip rulers of houses (Dorothean First trip rulers of Air houses and third trip rulers of Fire houses - which give 6 manifestations), or Saturn could be your compound almuten of death, or of children or ...oh God!

Who knows what particulars? This is where we call upon inspiration...which is of course an amalgam of experience, intuition, etc.


Last edited by astrojin on Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 469

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vettius Valens Anthology Book IV (trans. Robert Schmidt, Project Hindsight, Pg 29):-

Quote:
...if one pays attention, he will not go wrong. For when the same handings overs are signified in a twelve year period, they will not (always) posses the same operations of the effects but different. Whenever we will find the handing over after one or more years in certain cycle we will examine the renewed nativity for that year and whether the ingresses of the stars...

[emphasis mine]

renewed here means solar revolution chart as suggested by Bernadette Brady (and Dorian Gieseler Greenbaum when translating renewed nativity in her book, "Late Classical Astrology: Paulus Alexandrinus and Olympiodorus").

So, this gives a twist in delineating profection. Assume a native has ascendant in Cancer (ruled by Moon). Using one year = one sign profection, the first year (age 0) the native is governed by Moon as Lord of the Year, (LOTY), the second year (age 1) the native is governed by Sun (ruler of Leo, the sign following Cancer, as LOTY), the third year (age 2) the native is governed by Mercury (ruler of Virgo, the sign following Leo, as LOTY) and so on and so forth...

But this cycle is repeated every twelve years; Moon is LOTY at age 0, 12, 24, 36, 48, ... and Sun is LOTY at age 1, 13, 25, 37, 49, ... and Mercury is LOTY at age 2, 14, 26, 38, 50, ... and so on and so forth.

Assume that we wish to know the state of the body of the native at the age of 38 (his beings and life in general), we would profect the ascendant. We can see that the profected ascendant at the age of 38 is Mercury. Hence, Mercury in the natal chart would give us a general prediction for the ascendant as Mercury is the profected ascendant for age 38. But this is repreated every 12 years (it's the same at age 2, 14, 26, 38, 50, ...). To make it even more specific, we would look to the profected ascendant (Mercury) not only in natal chart but also in the renewed chart i.e. solar revolution (solar return). If Mercury is good in natal AND in solar revolution (solar return), it bodes well with the native.

The same is done to all the profected points/planets (you would do the same for Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, ...)

What a twist eh?
[/b]
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sigma4



Joined: 17 Jun 2005
Posts: 116

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astrojin:
Quote:
To make it even more specific, we would look to the profected ascendant (Mercury) not only in natal chart but also in the renewed chart i.e. solar revolution (solar return).


In addition, I also take note of the relative house position of the ruler of a profected house.

Example: For a given year, let the profected asc coincides with the 5th house natally. Let the ruler of the 5th house is in the 11th in the natal. 11th is the 7th from the 5th, so 7th house issues are relevant too.

I have been keeping a diary for 4 years and when I looked back with yearly and monthly profections I see many interesting manifestations that correlate with the events.

All of the following seem relevant:

* natal house position of the ruler of the profected house
* natal house position of the profected house
* relative house position of the profected house and its ruler
* natal and relative houses ruled by the lord of the year (and month if it is a montly profection) [in order of importance: sign ruler, exalt ruler and triplicity ruler(s)]

I also noticed in some or maybe many cases some or all meanings attached to a particular ruler or house are manifested. Take for example the 4th house. It is both parents, specifically father, and real estate (home, residence). So that in such cases "which particular meaning of a planet or house" loses its importance somewhat because some or all of it may be manifested. Then the new question becaomes: Which one is going to be manifested when in that year in a narrower scope? Confused

This takes us again to focus on revolutions (solar and lunar) and other techniques to pinpoint the particular event and timing.

Also both whole-sign and Alcabitius houses give good results when used together as suggested by Robert Zoller.

When my profected asc came to the 5th natal house I bought the apartment I live in (2nd from the 4th), I paid some expenses for the medical treatment of my father, I paid for re-decoration of my home and I had some issues related to my children all in the same year.

Astrojin,
Thanks for the quotes also.

Cheers,
Sigma
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1393

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This principle is violated in case of profections, where we always need to take the cusp ruler first.

Well, the harsh truth is that the principle is not violated ! The planet posited in a sign overules the one which has rulership.

I will not get into any fights with other systems defensors... if you don~t like what I am saying, just don~t use it !
In profections (by sign, not house as Zoller do), if there is a planet in the natal sign, he will be lord of profection IF in the solar return it aspect by sign the Prof sign.
Example, the year 8th has as sign of profection the 8th sign, lets say it is sagitarius. If in natal chart venus is in sagitarius, venus will be lord of profection IF venus, in the solar revolution of the year is aspecting sagitarius by whole sign. If venus is in cancer, she can~t be lord of profection because she is inconjuct the sign profected.
If the natal planet doesn~t hold the profection, see if there is any planet transiting the profected sign, and he will be the lord.
In the last case, if there isn~t any previous lord, you give the lord to the ruler, in the case of sagitarius, it would be Jupiter.
This considerations are from astrologer Stephen Birchfield, according to Mashalah, if the memory doesn~t fail me.
So long.
Yuzuru
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carnna



Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 44

Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't forgotten sigma4, children are back and a bit hectic, with school starting next week, but it is very much on mind and soon on paper then here.
I'm just a wee bit older (a full 45 next month) then.
I need to go through my notes.
But, do remember, especially in such cases as charts you've looked at often (repeat clients, family and close friends or associates) that the "art" in delienation is a practised one.
You cannot fear failure (for you will fail) in prediction (which held me back for years) otherwise you'll just fail to predict at all and miss the moment in which to practise your or any technique of your choosing.
Honestly, practise, practise, practise. It is the way.

I used Horary for years as my practise board so to speak, because I found Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson easy to follow and understand. New-age books frustrated me to no end (though I still bought and read them). Even though she used the 3 outer planets she never relied on one thing, always looking for confirmation and re-confirmation......and this helped me tremendously until I stumbled upon teachings of the traditional ways and begun to understand the deeper or perhaps I should say the underlying reasons to WHY the 7 are said to be this or that, how they aspect each other and behave to each other, who they represent, what they represent, where they can be found......etc.
Sorta like taking Saturn apart, then building him up again and seeing him in questions, natals, mundane.....alone, then in aspect to his enemy the Sun or to Mars his junior adversary, how he differs from him.....how they can or cannot interact through the signs or houses.
sigh, I guess I'd never make a good teacher.
But I sure the hell am gonna try to answer your "damndest" question. Cause I'd like to see it in writing, and doing so will help me understand it better too!
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